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Bobby Ray's selling items above current coolness?[message #354662] Mon, 03 September 2018 01:13 Go to next message
Toybasher

 
Messages:19
Registered:April 2018
Running the latest SCI, 1.13.

Started a new campaign out of boredom on Advanced/Intermediate (Whatever the one is below Expert) with Food and Drink and Disease turned on, and other stuff.

Bobby Rays is set to normal (x1) quality and quantity.

I headed to Drassen and took the airport. Am almost out of cash but will likely buy ammo and load up to take the mine while leaving the middle sector and counterattack for later.

Anyways I went to Bobby Rays and I noticed something weird, it seems as if they are selling items 1 above the current coolness level. I only have 2/2 progression and am using the alt progression system which is the default. (Basically the 4 different ways to make progress are not capped)

According to the wiki, coolness is "Coolness Level Allowed = (Current Progress / 10, rounded down) + 1"

The +1 at the end can be +2 or higher depending on Bobby Ray settings, as mentioned I have it set to normal for quantity and quality.

Theoretically 2 progress should round down to zero, +1 which means the current coolness level is +1.

However, Bobby Rays is stocking machine pistols, the MAT49, and deagle 357, as if the current coolness level is 2. (Although they are in very low supply.) I made sure they are not used as the used section is usually +1 the current coolness.

Anyone know if coolness values were changed (I.E MAT49 and deagle moved down to 1) or if it's a bug?
Re: Bobby Ray's selling items above current coolness?[message #354670 is a reply to message #354662] Mon, 03 September 2018 08:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:62
Registered:January 2018
I don't believe it is a bug. It has been so for at least 6 months this way, probably longer. I'll explain why I think it is done, and yes, in effect these weapons are not really considered higher coolness, in my opinion.

First, Bobby Ray's always has some chance to have something a tad better every few days or so. I don't think that is what is explaining this. But, on occasion, which makes it worth checking more often, you may find something a bit cooler available.

Now the main thing since the seeming revision of what is available at Bobby Ray's and also why these weapons you mention are not really all THAT great.

The Desert Eagle .357 in this game has often been available fairly on. Compare it to the Barracuda .357 (that the F.B.I. used to use as standard and looks like a brown and black version, in game, of the .38 special). The Desert Eagle takes much longer to draw, has only 2 more range, and take more AP per shot. Deagle has a 9 bullet magazine compared to 6, but I it does no more damage. Well, for early Mercs, they actually can do better running in one more tile, and get a better hit chance and do the same damage with the Revolver .357. The Deagle may also take longer to reload (not sure). The one main advantage the Deagle has is the initial bonus to hit for Accuracy, I think it is 13, but it may only be 7 versus the Barracuda's 6. Now, also available from time to time, a bit less common than both of those, is the Manuchin with the Rubberized Grip. That has the same bonuses that the Deagle has or better, takes less time to fire than the Deagle, but takes a bit longer to fire than the Barracuda. But the rubber grip Manuchin (there are 2 Manuchin early on, the rubberized grip is the one I'm talking about and is the better one)has just as good range as the Deagle. Plus the Manuchin costs less than the Deagle. So I'd pick that, and usually order one of those for my M.E.R.C. only team.

Ok, the MAT. The MAT takes a fair amount of time to draw and aim, that's the first number in parentheses, and it is AUTOMATIC ONLY (I believe). So that means you have to have someone with some Automatic Weapons training to fire it any good and not use up extra bullets or be inaccurate as heck. Plus a lot of the cheap Autoweapons guys, like Razor's buddy (name starts with H, another thing I've forgotten dang, it is Haywire), well they are Aggressive and will fire off more rounds or go Psycho with an Automatic Weapon, wasting bullets, and they aren't that accurate in the first place. So to save bullets, you either need a good more expensive Auto Weapons specialist, or somebody without those idiotic traits that waste bullets. Automatic Weapon fire early on is a waste of bullets, although it is nice to have in an emergency. For those purposes, though, there are some semi-automatic SMGs and Machine Pistols that serve the job better, in my opinion. Flo has the Chinese Made one, a Type 87 as an option in one of her loadouts which is semi-automatic and quick to fire with cheap and common drop ammo (she stinks with it, she's better off with throwing knives or a simple pistol), there are various Uzis available early on like the Micro-Uzi, The Stechkin uses super cheap ammo and has a high rate of fire, is cheap, and is BobRay available, although it does not hit hard, it has better range and so on than the Skorpion. The best IMO early on compromise is the Beretta 93R, which now has single fire, burst, and I think has auto as well. It used to be less accurate than the single fire Beretta 92F, but now it has a larger accuracy bonus similar to the next tier up. Biff, Gasket, and IMPs can easily get that.

<<What is more shocking, however, is how good the bums are with the standard Makarov PM or PMM. It has the least range pretty much of the pistols, but it fires fast, has no draw time cost, reloads fast, and the Mercs can move in a couple of tiles more close, than pop off 2,3,4 rounds with ease from up close. I use what I call prepping to allow for this and hand to hand attacks. Basically, at least on the lower difficulties,once you hit an enemy with one shot, he's staggered and almost worthless for that whole turn. You probably have to do some stamina damage and some actual damage, although suppression can also pull this off with misses. Once prepped, move in and beat the tar out of him, or get the bums to run in and get some shots in, working on accuracy and hurting the idiot more. On low difficulties, provided you don't find yourself in an ambush next turn (so iffy at night or when reinforcements keep trickling in for the enemy), this is part of my strategy to have fun with the improving bums. It's also a fun way to have fun with the early weapons, save on ammo and skills cost, and then see the real progression of the game once the better stuff is available. I've literally had starting Flo defend from inside a building the entry doorway and take out 5-6 enemy with a dang Makarov and another back-up pistol LOL, preferably another Makarov, or the Stechkin which is more accurate and offers a 5 round burst if need be -- but remember most bums stink at bursting a bit, and auto terribly. Also remember, if they have low marksmanship, but decent agility and dexterity, throwing knives are great, reusable, and revised to much lower ap cost, but you stand after throwing -- but hits with throwing knives increase marksmanship! Also, try to use guns in very good condition, like above 80, cuz Flo knows how to jam, and I don't mean musically>>

Compare how long it takes to draw and autofire the MAT, and the skills needed to not blow more AP on inadvertently or psychotically adding more rounds fired, and you can see that the MAT on an inexperienced or unskilled Merc, could be too much of an all or nothing gun. The same it true with the other Finnish, I believe, all automatic gun. Looks good for damage, but that initial draw is terrible, and you need to have those skills. Now if one of your IMPs have that auto-weapons skill, they can get something better in their load-out anyway, either with the new inventory choices method or the old one based on skill set. And all of those will be versatile, with single fire, burst, and autofire, which to me is superior for this game, at least in the early going.

Arguably, if you don't mind the ammo cost, the Dart Gun is better than all of these on a high marksmanship Merc. The target will be knocked out soon enough if not immediately, you can steal at will from someone unconscious saving a lot of money on found equipment, it will need only one shot (the dart tends to deliver its payload anytime it does not hit armor, or if the armor is damaged once by another shot -- not fully sure on the rules for this, never had the issue come up really as not knocking the enemy out, except maybe on Mike once on a much earlier build from 4-5 years back or more). You could also try, if you want to go crazy, the Contender, one shot target pistol, fires a 31 damage .454 Casull Round, but needs a full reload after each shot, has long range for a pistol (I don't think it is worth it, and the better guns to show they are better need mercs that can shoot well at max range, most can't if they are cheap).

Beyond all this, nothing really beats being on a rooftop, or catching clowns cross around a corner and getting an interrupt, or softening up somebody with one shot, while others run in and finish him off with cheap weaponry or the old fists and feet. Damage early on is highly mitigated by enemy inaccuracy if on Easy or Experienced, and the armor is up to the task to take multiple shots. On higher difficulty levels it is probably different, but in those difficulties, you pretty much have to go with good IMPs and good Mercs which costs. I go with the cheap guys and get many of them for the lower difficulties, and I use a lot of militia, having at least one IMP who is good for training Militia.

Anyway, I don't believe this is a bug, just a revised intent. They may be the few examples of a coolness plus 1, which is an occasional thing in the game. But I'd note that these really each have their negatives. You will quickly see full on Uzis in the next tier, but already the Mini-Uzi is much improved with the bonus to accuracy and range to what it used to be before all these were revised around a year or 2 ago. Not sure when it was exactly. But yes, if you have played previous to that, it's a bit of a surprise. Like the Type-87 is much better than it was, comparatively, for example. But also damage, aim, etc were all changed to some degree. Like also before the Beretta C4 Storm, was given a different name, and was available much later. Now it is available early on, especially if you have a Marksman or Sniper. It's not as effective as its stats say, though, or at least it seems, but on paper it looks nice.

As to it purposefully changed or not, I guess we need someone more knowledgeable to say who was involved in the entire change of it all.

[Updated on: Mon, 03 September 2018 08:49]

Re: Bobby Ray's selling items above current coolness?[message #354679 is a reply to message #354670] Mon, 03 September 2018 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3416
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Yeah, not going to read that wall of text. In any case, the used items selection has access to cooler gear if the BR selection set at start is greather than 'Good (1)'...
...
//Madd:  Bobby Ray's will sell higher coolness stuff if it's used, and may also have a better selection at the start of the game, depending on selection
if ( (bArmsDealer == bobbyRaysID || armsDealerInfo[bArmsDealer].useBRSetting) && gGameOptions.ubBobbyRayQuality > BR_GOOD )
{
	ubMaxCoolness += gGameOptions.ubBobbyRayQuality - 1;
	if (fUsed )
	{
		ubMaxCoolness += 1;
	}
}
...


... but the chance of getting any item is halved in the first place, likely to lower the amount ot items and to make windowshopping more rewarding
// if there's any uncertainty
if ((ubChance > 0) && (ubChance < 100))
{
	// cooler items sell faster
	if (fDealerIsSelling)
	{
		ubChance += (5 * ubItemCoolness);

		// ARM: New - keep stuff on the shelves longer
		ubChance /= 2;

		if ( fBobbyRay )
		    ubChance /= gGameOptions.ubBobbyRayQuality;
	}

	// used items are traded more rarely
	if (fUsed)
	{
		ubChance /= 2;
	}
}


Both can be found ArmsFealerInvInit.cpp.



"Is there any way to get the blood to flow up the walls?"
"I don't see why not."

If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.


Re: Bobby Ray's selling items above current coolness?[message #354681 is a reply to message #354679] Tue, 04 September 2018 20:59 Go to previous message
Toybasher

 
Messages:19
Registered:April 2018
Flugente wrote on Mon, 03 September 2018 23:16
Yeah, not going to read that wall of text. In any case, the used items selection has access to cooler gear if the BR selection set at start is greather than 'Good (1)'...
...
//Madd:  Bobby Ray's will sell higher coolness stuff if it's used, and may also have a better selection at the start of the game, depending on selection
if ( (bArmsDealer == bobbyRaysID || armsDealerInfo[bArmsDealer].useBRSetting) && gGameOptions.ubBobbyRayQuality > BR_GOOD )
{
	ubMaxCoolness += gGameOptions.ubBobbyRayQuality - 1;
	if (fUsed )
	{
		ubMaxCoolness += 1;
	}
}
...


... but the chance of getting any item is halved in the first place, likely to lower the amount ot items and to make windowshopping more rewarding
// if there's any uncertainty
if ((ubChance > 0) && (ubChance < 100))
{
	// cooler items sell faster
	if (fDealerIsSelling)
	{
		ubChance += (5 * ubItemCoolness);

		// ARM: New - keep stuff on the shelves longer
		ubChance /= 2;

		if ( fBobbyRay )
		    ubChance /= gGameOptions.ubBobbyRayQuality;
	}

	// used items are traded more rarely
	if (fUsed)
	{
		ubChance /= 2;
	}
}


Both can be found ArmsFealerInvInit.cpp.


Aye, what's happening is I have it set to Good(1) yet the new (not just used) selection has it one coolness level above what it should be for that progression level.

EDIT: I do find it interesting though that the "Used item can be cooler than newer gear" aspect only applies when it is set to Great though

[Updated on: Tue, 04 September 2018 21:00]

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