Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » JA2 Complete Mods & Sequels » Vengeance 1.13 Reloaded » Sniping
| Sniping[message #354758]
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Sat, 08 September 2018 01:52 
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 vassock |
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Messages:19
Registered:December 2017 |
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Am I missing something re: sniping? It seems that chance to hit is ridiculously low with iron sights, with most guns working about as well as a .22 pistol. Am I correct in saying that the best range/accuracy you can get is with the marine sniper rifle, with a sniper, in daylight, prone, 10x scope + bipod, with ballistic/shooting goggles?
Are there any other tips for shooting WITHOUT scopes or are we doomed to the "can't hit the broad side of the barn" syndrome all around?
[Updated on: Sat, 08 September 2018 01:57] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Sniping[message #354772 is a reply to message #354758]
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Sat, 08 September 2018 21:49 
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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vassock wrote on Sat, 08 September 2018 03:52Am I missing something re: sniping? It seems that chance to hit is ridiculously low with iron sights, with most guns working about as well as a .22 pistol. Am I correct in saying that the best range/accuracy you can get is with the marine sniper rifle, with a sniper, in daylight, prone, 10x scope + bipod, with ballistic/shooting goggles?
Are there any other tips for shooting WITHOUT scopes or are we doomed to the "can't hit the broad side of the barn" syndrome all around?
I don't see any problem with accuracy in the game.
For example, one of the cheapest snipers, Leech, with cheap 9mm rifle, at 25 tiles (max gun range, a few tiles below max vision range):
CTH may be low if your merc is under heavy shock from suppression, also enemy movement reduces CTH significantly, but a good shooter with a rifle can still hit reliably at max vision distance even without scope.
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Attachment: Leech.png
(Size: 222.18KB, Downloaded 1901 times)
[Updated on: Sun, 09 September 2018 00:32]
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| Re: Sniping[message #354780 is a reply to message #354772]
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Sun, 09 September 2018 03:55
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| Gopan |
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Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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Indeed, if it's 9mm rifle is the Calico M-900. he is standing up and the chance to hit bar over the targeting reticle is almost full, even without a scope as Sevenfm says and i believe him. Leech has Marksman/Hunter traits. Combined, he's almost as good as a full Sniper. I was surprised, in my game, to find out that this specific starting rifle is VERY effective, especially with a 4xACOG scope. It does not accept bipod so the stance matters little.
The picture is from the Arulco Vengeance mod so i think it's OCTH only, which should make things much easier concerning rifles, sniper rifles and single shots.
[Updated on: Tue, 10 March 2020 06:21]
Nipson anomimata mi monan opsinReport message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354781 is a reply to message #354780]
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Sun, 09 September 2018 10:15
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| vassock |
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Messages:19
Registered:December 2017 |
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I guess it was the suppression. I thought it only reduced AP and caused stance change.
I suppose my real issue was with "regular" mercs. Seems even the worst mercs should be able to shoot accurately when not directly and immediately threatened.
[Updated on: Sun, 09 September 2018 10:17] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Sniping[message #354787 is a reply to message #354783]
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Sun, 09 September 2018 19:19
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| vassock |
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Messages:19
Registered:December 2017 |
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Gopas wrote on Sun, 09 September 2018 14:17 Yes, suppression always has negative effects. Can cause them to lose sight and tunnel vision, according to your settings. You can disable it from the INI.Editor options i believe, if you think it's too much of a problem at the beginning. Or just have patience and experiment to learn more and advance easier.It's a bit annoying to start without cover, i've had my team run to the nearest building before they would get pinned down in the open. If you get through the first battle, things get much easier afterwards.
Actually, I don't mind suppression reducing accuracy. I mind low marksmanship mercs having low CTH even when not being suppressed. Low marksmanship should be strictly for accuracy under suppression and very long range shots (we're talking shots that require bullet drop compensation). Otherwise, you're basically shooting at targets, and that's very simple to do with any rifle, even a 9mm one. In my experience, with a decent 9mm rifle, I could hit targets at the edge of my scope's vision range with total ease despite it being my first time using the rifle and having no combat experience.
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| Re: Sniping[message #354790 is a reply to message #354789]
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Sun, 09 September 2018 21:42
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| vassock |
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Messages:19
Registered:December 2017 |
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silversurfer wrote on Sun, 09 September 2018 21:19Marksmanship isn't the only attribute required to reliably hit something. Experience, wisdom and dexterity also play a role. However marksmanship has the biggest influence. You really want to claim that someone who doesn't even know how to aim properly should be able to reliably hit moving targets?
There should be no mercenary anywhere in this game who doesn't even know how to aim properly. That's just ridiculous.Quote:
Don't be ridiculous. I have been a sporting marksman for several years so I know what I'm talking about.
Also shooting at live targets is anything but simple. There are countless statistics that prove that for real world scenarios (army and police forces).
CtH is just fine in this game, in OCTH the chance is even too high which leads to the "headshot game" that some players like so much.
Like I said, I'm OK with suppression fire or shock reducing chance to hit. Many of the police statistics deal with cops engaging armed suspects in close range shootouts at a point where they are only a few feet away and the suspect is about to shoot them (with concerns regarding hitting civilians, too). JA 1.13 is more like a war where the mercs are shooting at far away, often unsuspecting targets (cops almost never do this). That's a totally different experience.
That said, I have mostly no problem with how the high marksman/"sniper" type characters hit their targets. My problem is with how the low marksman characters are totally worthless. They really should be about as good as the other chars in most cases, except under suppression or at extremely long ranges that really require marksman skills (ranges where bullet drop comes into effect, for example).
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| Re: Sniping[message #354791 is a reply to message #354781]
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Sun, 09 September 2018 22:58
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2663
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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vassock wrote on Sun, 09 September 2018 12:15I suppose my real issue was with "regular" mercs. Seems even the worst mercs should be able to shoot accurately when not directly and immediately threatened.
I still don't see any problem with regular mercs.
For example, Grunty, mrk=78, level=3, day 1 in Omerta, using the same crappy 9mm rifle from Leech's starting kit, shooting at 25 tiles:
He has like 60% CTH. If you give him a better weapon (something like SVD), even without a scope he will shoot with like 80% CTH at max day vision range, and he is regular merc with one of the lowest salaries.
If you want to hire crap from MERC and expect them to snipe enemy, it's not how this game is supposed to be played.
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Attachment: Grunty_svd.png
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| Re: Sniping[message #354792 is a reply to message #354790]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 01:43
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| Gopan |
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Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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There should be no mercenary anywhere in this game who doesn't even know how to aim properly. That's just ridiculous.(Vassock's words, not mine)
I have to agree with this. Ever since vanilla it has bothered me how ex-military pros are going to combat with nothing but a leather jacket and .38. One would expect that peeps with even basic military training , would have more sense and buy better gear if they want to be mercenaries and go do combat. Yeah, ok, high end mercs have better gear but they are highly unaffordable at the beginning of the campaign. Recently i was watching videos of ex military people getting trained to be mercs and they had full gear, M4's, helmets, camo uniforms, MOLLE vests, etc, just like a regular soldier.
As for MERC's crap, well, Spooky, Gaston, Cougar, Stogie, Numb, Biggins, aren't crap. All of them have over 80 marksmanship and other disciplines. What's more, you don't have to pay MERC for 7 to 10 days, which allows for time to get some money. I don't see why it's not the way the game can be played. There is a wide variety of mercs to choose from. Let's not forget that "...the AIM alumni have been added to MERC for competitive rates...." . The more the merrier 
[Updated on: Mon, 10 September 2018 19:04]
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354794 is a reply to message #354791]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 05:50
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| vassock |
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Messages:19
Registered:December 2017 |
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sevenfm wrote on Sun, 09 September 2018 22:58vassock wrote on Sun, 09 September 2018 12:15I suppose my real issue was with "regular" mercs. Seems even the worst mercs should be able to shoot accurately when not directly and immediately threatened.
I still don't see any problem with regular mercs.
For example, Grunty, mrk=78, level=3, day 1 in Omerta, using the same crappy 9mm rifle from Leech's starting kit, shooting at 25 tiles:
He has like 60% CTH. If you give him a better weapon (something like SVD), even without a scope he will shoot with like 80% CTH at max day vision range, and he is regular merc with one of the lowest salaries.
If you want to hire crap from MERC and expect them to snipe enemy, it's not how this game is supposed to be played.
Mrk 78 is pretty high, though. Plenty of M.E.R.C.s have lower stats.
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| Re: Sniping[message #354795 is a reply to message #354792]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 05:58
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| vassock |
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Messages:19
Registered:December 2017 |
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Gopas wrote on Mon, 10 September 2018 01:43 There should be no mercenary anywhere in this game who doesn't even know how to aim properly. That's just ridiculous.
I have to agree with this. Ever since vanilla it has bothered me how ex-military pros are going to combat with nothing but a leather jacket and .38. One would expect that peeps with even basic military training , would have mose sence and buy better gear if they want to be mercenaries. Yeah, ok, high end mercs have better gear but they are highly unaffordable at the beginning of the campaign. Recently i was watching videos of ex military people getting trained to be mercs and they had full gear, M4's, helmets, camo uniforms, MOLLE vests, etc, just like a regular soldier.
As for MERC's crap, well,Spooky,Gaston, Cougar, Stogie, Numb, Biggins, aren't crap. All of them have over 80 marksmanship and other disciplines. What's more, you don't have to pay MERC for 7 to 10 days, which allows for time to get some money. I don't see why it's not the way the game can be played. There is a wide variety of mercs to choose from. Let's not forget that "...the AIM alumni have been added to MERC for competitive rates...." . The more the merrier
Yes, the $50/day mercs are the ones that I'm talking about. They really can't hit much of anything. I view the low-end mercs as low-end soccer players: they really should be just a bit worse at regular tasks than their mid-range counterparts like leech. Now, sniping at extremely long distances (where bullet drop, wind speed/direction matter), yes, this is something that should be reserved to experts. Coolness under suppression is another item. Performing complex repairs of guns and equipment, etc...
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| Re: Sniping[message #354800 is a reply to message #354797]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 16:02
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| Gopan |
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Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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I hired MD, Razor, Haywire, Gasket and other lowbies on my very first playthrough back in '99. It was a mess, in part because i had no idea on how to play such a game. I had to start a new game with my night ops/stealthy IMP and Shadow. Also tried to fight at night. The 2 games were night and day by comparison. Lesson learned : Ignore the lowbies as they take forever to become somewhat decent, better hire one or two decent mercs that you can afford and go from there. Of course, before the 1.13, MERC had no talent pool until much later and that was IF you hired the lowbies so MERC could eventually hire Cougar.
As for mercs going to war with a leather jacket and a .38 special, heh, that is the game makers' fault, not the Bears Pit team.
Concerning aiming and shooting, yes, everyone can pull a trigger, a guy in basic training emptied the G3A3 mag in full auto while the instructor asked us in a loud voice to put the gun on single shot mode. That guy also fired before the order was given. He was standing up and the weapon climbed while firing, spraying bullets all over creation, who knows where they fell. You can imagine the instructor's reaction " YOU FUCKING IDIOT.....ARE YOU TRYING TO KILL US ALL.." And so on..... Gave him a major ass-chewing. I was standing 3 guys away and to the left of the idiot. Not much he could do though since the idiot happened to be the camp CO's nephew. That's why i never hire psychos, thieves, junkies, or retards . A soldier must be disciplined, cool headed and able to aim at both stationary and moving targets. Or as Sgt Berghoff puts it, in Operation Flashpoint Cold War Crisis " A soldier must be fast, exact and effective with his rifle....". Preferably from cover and while kneeling or prone.
As Silver says, there is a lot more than just pulling a trigger. Moral lesson after all this : Don't hire lowbies, play OCTH and try to start with a couple of decent shooters. Gaston and Spooky are excellent choices since you don't have to pay for them until 7 to 10 days later.
[Updated on: Mon, 10 September 2018 16:22]
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354802 is a reply to message #354800]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 17:00
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| Bearpit |
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Messages:1073
Registered:August 2001
Location: Sydney Australia. |
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Hi Gopas,
Currently i'm playing Arulco Revisited which i find to be a fabulous version.
If you are after the ultimate custom merc try creating a night ops gunslinger. Just being a pistol specialsist might sound limited but it doesn't work out that way if you equip with the appropriate stuff.
The huge advantage of this is that pistols like the very reliable Glock 17 - 18 combined with white tip match ammo in 9MM which is quite easy to acquire then gives you 5-6 fully aimed shots at a range of 18 which is enough at night and especially effective when combined with NVG3 and camo or ghille.
The glocks require only one right click to bring up full aim as long as you dont add any sights hence the ability to get off so many shots which soon raises accuracy.
I tend to always hire similar mercs .... Grunty, Igor, Barry, Fox, MD, Spider then later Wolf, Raven and Brain the heavy weapons guy. Locals can be valuable especially Ira who if chaperoned from the start can become as good as anyone with medical and training skills as a bonus while Dimitri, Dynamo and Maddog can act as static repairers - buyers - sellers at the sectors with Tony, the cheap shop guy Keith plus airport to receive shippments and repair used stuff from Bobby Rays so they serve very useful functions for virtually free. In those static functions there is no need to build them up .... all that grows is their repair skills which is all you need.
But in general i agree that the low accuracy mercs are hardly worth babying till they become proficient especially psychos ..... better to hire the lower end AIM mercs with reasonable intelligence which is always the case with doctors or field medics .... Dr Q, Danny, MD, Spider, Thor, Buns .... they learn so quickly.
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: Sniping[message #354803 is a reply to message #354802]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 17:28
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| Gopan |
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Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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Hello Bearpit, when i say don't hire cheap mercs, i meant for the beginning of a new campaign. There are a lot of them that you are mentioning that i use too. Thor, Magic, Spider, Ice, Grizzly, Bull, Woody (Tarballs, that guy cracks me up  ),Dr Q, Buns, Malice and others , i have tried them all over the years, even locals such as Iggy, Conrad and Devin. The first 2 are a must for my teams. Mike is very useful too if i can get him, has great stats.
I used to dislike MERC's mercs until i got Cougar, Bubba is a decent shot but nothing else, more funny is to hear him talk or grunt when he gets hit. Biff is good for teaching eventually, the frenchie girl is much better, she has more brains and eventually she can become a good shot. The Reservoir Dog who has a crush on Buns is very smart and he can become great but i can't stand the way he talks. I will always hire Miguel, Ira and even Carlos(stealthy. Scout) but never Dimitri. Forgetful retard. Can't help it and i feel sorry for him but to me he is like Efialtis from 300. Can't lift his shield up to his shoulder. So he doesn't get hired. Same goes for Maddog, Dynamo and all the crazies from MERC, including Fidel from AIM. Shank can learn and become very decent warrior. I get Dynamo out of Tixa only if i need to raise loyalty in Alma, otherwise he stays put. By the way, why when local mercs get fired they vanish from the game ? Can;t they be made to go back to some friendly-controlled location ? Dynamo and Shank could go to Alma for instance, Devin, Iggy and Conrad in some bar, Cambria, San Mona,etc. Is it possible ?
This is not an argument i hope, just a friendly exchange of opinions. We all have opinions concerning the way we like to play and all are valid. The game was created with a wide variety in mind, merc personalities, skills and traits, weapons and armor, tactics,etc. There is no perfect way to play it, how perfect a game is, it's up to every individual, we all have our preferences. I prefer long range combat. I do give a sidearm to everyone though in case Deidranna's sadists try to crowd my soldiers.
I call them sadists because they run up to you and punch you to death. Or fire a freakin' LAW on a single soldier. It's in the options now but it's still overkill. The sadists get .44 magnum AET rounds in the knee or head and the overkillers get .338 Lapua between the eyes, even better a KVSK round in the chest to blow them backwards:D
[Updated on: Sun, 12 April 2020 17:08]
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354805 is a reply to message #354804]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 18:48
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| Gopan |
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Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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Arulco Revisited is the best mod for me. I wish i could make it work with the latest 1.13 version, 8609.
I use 8 person teams and i try to squeeze all specialties in every team. One sniper or marksman, one doctor or paramedic, one squad leader or deputy, one stealthy, one night ops, one engineer or technician with Demolitions (Red, Barry, Rusty and an IMP). Gus, Stogie,Iggy and maybe an IMP , all Bombardeers, otherwise it's a waste of mortar shells, a teaching one,an auto weapons or machinegunner, one scout, one ranger or hunter.etc. Most of them have 2-3 skills so it's easy to make "solid" teams as i like to call them. That way each team is completely self-sufficient and they never have to meet up with any of the other teams, so i can send one team towards the west , one to the southeast,etc. Keeps the nagging to a minimum too, peace of mind for me
And as i said, we all have our preferences on who we hire and why, our battle tactics,etc. The magic of this game is indeed the almost endless combinations and ways to approach different situations, it never grows old trully and the 1.13 is a blessing
[Updated on: Mon, 10 September 2018 18:58]
Nipson anomimata mi monan opsinReport message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354806 is a reply to message #354801]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 19:23
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| Gopan |
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Messages:379
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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gougluinn wrote on Mon, 10 September 2018 15:31which day after start, i'll be able to hire mercs from MERC?
btw, i didnt know the suppression fire existed in the original game too. those crouchings or going on prones after bullets slightly missed them were all about this mechanic. himmmm....
i had know my char was losing APs but i thought it was all about morale/energy.
At the INI.editor under Recruitement options, which is almost at the very top of the list, there are options about making MERC immidiately available and also all of their mercs available immidiately.
Hire Gaston for sniping, Spooky for Ranger (can see better in bad weather conditions), and Maybe Cougar for Scouting to prevent ambushes. Do not hire many as you won't be able to pay for them all, even after a week or 10 days later. Those 3 and maybe an IMP with Technician/Paramedic traits for all kinds of repairs . There is even an option that makes all mercs always available but i don't use it. I prefer the vanilla setting that some may be on assignments here and there. It's better to start new games until you find one with the ones you want available.
Gaston comes with a FR-F2 sniper rifle, which is very accurate, Spooky comes with a M-14, both weapons use the same bullet, 7.62x51, once you find match version of that bullet you are golden. They add more range and accuracy and they are armor piercing to boot. Best bullet in the game. Cougar comes with a Thompson SMG, short range but good at close quarters combat (CQB), since he has the auto weapons trait. Have him watch over the others as they handle the longer range shooting.
Try it and let me know if and how did it work for you.
[Updated on: Wed, 12 September 2018 16:59]
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354810 is a reply to message #354807]
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Mon, 10 September 2018 23:15
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| townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017
Location: here |
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Regarding "takes a lot of time to make Shank a full fledged fighter, check this YT video, the relevant part starts at 2m10s
8 persons cause higher fuel comsumption and slower travel for cars, helis range is reduced to )let's be merciful) 21 tiles :p
"Here it's quite easy to obtain an older style core duo second hand computer for about $300 .."
usd or aud? even the latter would be imo expensive for germany, my 2 W500 notebooks did cost much less several vears ago,
one with a T9600(worth ~ 1/3 of the 220€ for the machine) the other had license sticker, some month 24/7 on site and mint+ condition.
@Gopas: to shorten links try bbc code: [url=[pasteUrlHere]]placeLinkTitleHere[/url]
i.e. [url=http://www.myhomepage.com][i][b]My Homepage[/i][/b][/url] transforms into My Homepage
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Sniping[message #354823 is a reply to message #354821]
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Tue, 11 September 2018 20:03
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| townltu |
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Messages:384
Registered:December 2017
Location: here |
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Hello Bearpit
Bloodcats apparently cant attack diagonal, so the rocks protect Shank from any attacks as they occupy all 4 adjacent tiles.
Regarding "train mrk", Throwing is the afaik fastet (ingame) way/exploit to train mrk and also dex at lower degree:
Place corpses on a 2x2 tiles area, create 4 of these patches around a preferably big house, close to its walls,
give the trainee(s) all thrown weapons, sneak, approch the crows so that only the victim can see the merc (else the others will fly away)
throw your knife, move so that the next crow comes in sight, repeat.
When you are done with the last group of crows, the 1st patch of corpses is often already repopulated;)
May require to pick up knives from the sector inventory, in order to not chase the remaining crows away.
Start at full hour and stop after 15 min so the merc(s) get a valid "hour" for their real assignment ;)
Str & xp at much lower degree: required is a sector which allows to refill canteens, or a hiuge supply of these,
last not least a merc with appropriate attitude to function as drill sergant who pushes the trainees above their limits.
Overload PC up to 500% (e.g. pick up corpse), then run until PC drops unconscious, drink, refill, repeat process.
I was talking about legal and 100% valid Win7 pro sticker, (its illegal here to tie e.g. an OS license to a single computer)
would not have mentioned the license if the sticker did not represent ~ 1/3 of the official shop price for Win7 pro.
However price difference between notebook and desktop is hard to estimate,
notebook of same performance costs more but consumes only 1/10 or even less energy, here thats at least +150€/year for the desktop machine.
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Master Sergeant
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