Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » Better default NCTH settings contest (Post your NCHT tweaks, win a prize!)
Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354885] Fri, 14 September 2018 21:18 Go to next message
The_Bob

 
Messages:405
Registered:May 2009
Location: Behind you.
The default 1.13 NCTH settings aren't great.

This isn't an issue for some, as this is simply another thing they customize, but for lazy old players and newcomers alike, the default settings are often what they get to play with, then usually decide NCTH isn't very fun and choose to restart with OCTH enabled.

Let's fix that.

If you've modded 1.13 to make NCTH more playable, post your settings in this thread. A capable team of community playtesters will evaluate your submission and eventually a winner will be chosen, whose NCTH settings and tweaks will be merged as the new 1.13 default.

Actually, there's no team of playtesters, but I hope once someone posts their settings, others will be interested enough to check them out and let others know what they think. Also, there isn't really a prize, but all participants will get my gratitude and the winner gets immortalized in the 1.13 changelog, so there's that.

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354887 is a reply to message #354885] Fri, 14 September 2018 21:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marcell

 
Messages:12
Registered:March 2014
Location: Poland
Here's my settings - nothing fancy, just quick edits for my play-through, it's meant to be slightly harder than vanilla but way less annoying than original 1.13 settings (where guns with iron sights are only useful for door-to-door range). This is meant for vanilla maps, but I figure it'd work fine for AIMNAS as long as you double/triple the weapon range or something.

https://pastebin.com/fLyF41My
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354889 is a reply to message #354885] Fri, 14 September 2018 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:260
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
approximately my changes on CTHConstants.ini in some vanilla 1.13 and two AV 1.09/1.10 runs,
to have some variation in each run I dont copy the settings from last revision/mod to the new one

range_coefficient = 1.25
gravity_coefficient = 1
scope_range_multiplier = .6
base_target_invisible = -250.0
max_effective_range_multiplier = 1.55

I always play with "increase_aiming_costs = true" in ja2Options.ini,
else the scope range multiplier would be imo op,
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354910 is a reply to message #354885] Sun, 16 September 2018 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
I really don't think it is that easy. For starters, I agree, the default NCTH is not great. The main reason why it's not great will not be fixed by any kind of changes to CTHConstants. They are perfectly fine at this point. The main problem is that default weapon progression is made for OCTH and NCTH requires completely different approach. In NCTH a pistol should never be a primary weapon, just like it's not in any military or paramilitary organization in the world. Ammo is a bit too hard to find in sufficient quantities as NCTH is designed to require more shots to score hits. And so on and on. There are many such small things that are symptoms of halfassed NCTH adoption, which is probably a neccessity at this point, as long as we can't have different weapons used/dropped for NCTH/OCTH games.

Now, the not so main problem, but the one that gets most of the complaints is that NCTH works differently from OCTH. Which it is designed to do. That was the whole point of NCTH. And it is perfectly reasonable thing to dislike it if you prefer OCTH kind of game. But a thread like this is only going to end up with answers to the question how to make NCTH more OCTH-ish, not how to make NCTH better. And that shouldn't be a goal.

You want better NCTH? Install SDO and give it a try. It works more or less just the way the NCTH should. Of course, it's not perfect, but it as at least as good at doing what NCTH is designed to do as OCTH is at doing it's thing. It plays differently of course and if you insist on using it the way you're used in OCTH, you're going to suck.

Now, of course, as long as the things are editable, it's not all that important. I can always adjust setting more to my liking, and I have zero intention of telling anyone how to play the game... but the problem is that as long as the main criteria for judging NCTH is how much like OCTH it is, although it is specifically designed to work completely the other way, there will be no good enough implementation for NCTH. They will always be either not OCTH enough or go the extremes where the complete point of NCTH is lost.
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354913 is a reply to message #354910] Sun, 16 September 2018 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gougluinn

 
Messages:61
Registered:September 2018
i am new at 1.13 as you know me from asking questions and complaining all the time happy i like the new system and only problem so far is iron-sight range as marcell mentioned above. i've done military service in real life (compulsory military service). shot 6 times in prone position; 3 with g3, 3 with ak-47. well, distance was kinda 20 meters and my accuracy was close to hit 3 times head shot with g3, and a little bit worse with ak-47. the point is if i can shoot the target easily from 20 meters in real life using just iron sights as an amateur these mercenaries should do the same at least. ofc i assume every tile in game is 1 meter.

[Updated on: Sun, 16 September 2018 00:38]

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354914 is a reply to message #354913] Sun, 16 September 2018 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
gougluinn wrote on Sat, 15 September 2018 23:37
ofc i assume every tile in game is 1 meter.


For purpose of shooting, every tile in game is considered 10 meters. That scale is of course not really compatible with the way things look, the houses don't have 50 by 50 meters bathrooms or whatever, but that is the way it works. It's a necessary abstraction, otherwise either the maps should be much much bigger which was probably hard to achieve when the game was made (and might be kind of tedious), or the fights should basically be fought with baseball bats and not guns cheeky just one of idiosyncrasies of the game. So shooting at targets 20 tiles away means shooting at 200 meters away. In reality, shooting at those distances in combat conditions, hit rates are probably bellow 1 percent, so if we wanted to be really realistic, even HTCH is still way too precise, but of course, if we wanted to be really realistic, the whole game would make no sense, so a line has to be drawn somewhere cheeky
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354917 is a reply to message #354910] Sun, 16 September 2018 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
LatZee wrote on Sat, 15 September 2018 23:17
I really don't think it is that easy. For starters, I agree, the default NCTH is not great. The main reason why it's not great will not be fixed by any kind of changes to CTHConstants. They are perfectly fine at this point. The main problem is that default weapon progression is made for OCTH and NCTH requires completely different approach. In NCTH a pistol should never be a primary weapon, just like it's not in any military or paramilitary organization in the world. Ammo is a bit too hard to find in sufficient quantities as NCTH is designed to require more shots to score hits. And so on and on. There are many such small things that are symptoms of halfassed NCTH adoption, which is probably a neccessity at this point, as long as we can't have different weapons used/dropped for NCTH/OCTH games.

Now, the not so main problem, but the one that gets most of the complaints is that NCTH works differently from OCTH. Which it is designed to do. That was the whole point of NCTH. And it is perfectly reasonable thing to dislike it if you prefer OCTH kind of game. But a thread like this is only going to end up with answers to the question how to make NCTH more OCTH-ish, not how to make NCTH better. And that shouldn't be a goal.

I have to agree with that. I switched to NCTH the moment it was available and still in beta. At that time it was much more difficult than now because it was still being tested and lots of the improvements that we enjoy today were not in the code. I liked it even at that time and I'm still playing with the default values today.

The problems with NCTH are mostly player related and somewhat game related, like:
  • Players expecting NCTH to work like OCTH.
  • Players trying the headshot approach that worked so well in OCTH.
  • Players giving poor mercs sniper rifles, hoping they could use them properly.
  • Players using scopes at close range.
  • Players not understanding the targeting reticule and/or the sight modes.
  • Players ignoring the trait requirements for proper weapon usage.
  • Players thinking that this is a shooting range with stationary targets and we all know that we can hit a stationary target in the eye at 200m distance using iron sights, right? cheeky At least some players have claimed that...
  • The game still using pistols as primary weapons. This has been fixed somewhat for the player with better gear selection for mercs. However, the better gear is expensive and has to be selected manually.
  • NCTH relying on auto weapons that require more ammo that is scarce until you capture Drassen airport (unless you are using an item mod that also provides better weapons to enemies from the start so you can scavenge ammo and weapons).
Any attempt to make NCTH even more accurate than now will really just turn it into OCTH with a different cursor. No thanks.

Unfortunately Headrock isn't around anymore. Otherwise he might be able to update his description of NCTH with those changes and features that have added since it was invented. The description of NCTH could also use a more prominent spot in this forum. It's quite hard to find.

Btw. Flugente plans to make some of those start screen settings changeable during a campaign. So if you can get him to do so for OCTH/NCTH selection you can cheat your way through a difficult situation by switching back to OCTH whenever you want. ;)



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354918 is a reply to message #354917] Sun, 16 September 2018 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:281
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
my $.02: the CTH constants are much improved over when NCTH was released, and while you can tweak them (like so many things) to fit your playstyle better, thats personal choice. I think more improvements to using it would be found in things like drop rate (to get more ammo/attatchments) and probably some more tweaking of weapons. SDO did a lot to improve that, but i am not sure how much got absorbed back into the trunk where its stayed up to date with other improvements. I've mostly been playing mods the last couple years so I haven't delved into that part of the forum much.
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354921 is a reply to message #354918] Sun, 16 September 2018 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:260
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
I would expect an improved cth system to allow every approach,
not "force" (in terms of what is most effective) people to change from one single sided approach to another one,
but create a balance so that both work well side by side, and perhaps even open the way for more options
(which were already added with other features like spies, moving militia etc pp, thx! btw)
My posted settings try to achieve a balance, still favouring pray&spray (so the "cheat" bounces off with no effect at all;) and certaínly not perfect,
in game only the real snipers Reaper and Gaston get reasonable chance to hit a head of a stationary target if they use all aim clicks,
for that they need ~ 90 AP with a 7.62 nato semi auto if the weapon was already brought up in the last turn.
If the weapon is not in excellent condition, sniper wounded, or we have only a marksman, the cth will suffer a lot.

Compare that to a machinegunner like Ice who can fire 26 untargeted rounds with a fully pimped 21E,
or > a dozen at max tergeting lvl, and kill several enemies with both variants.

No question ncth is still to accurate in RL terms, but who wants to play battles taking 10x the time,
the weardown rate we have right now wouldnt really fit,
longer battles = no time to move mercs back to defense spots as next battle pops up instantly ...


A standard G3 fixed on a test mount ist not precise enough to consistently hit a stationary head size target at 200m,
less than 1 of 1000 produced G3's may have been that accurate.



powered by Tung dialog, Fuzz På Svenska, Kungens Män :D
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354929 is a reply to message #354921] Sun, 16 September 2018 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
pheloncab wrote on Sun, 16 September 2018 11:49
I think more improvements to using it would be found in things like drop rate (to get more ammo/attatchments) and probably some more tweaking of weapons. SDO did a lot to improve that, but i am not sure how much got absorbed back into the trunk where its stayed up to date with other improvements.

I don't think that Strohmann's changes in SDO have been incorporated into 1.13 at all. He said it himself that the changes would have had unwanted effects on OCTH so he decided to go for a standalone mod. Apart from the huge amount of work it would be quite difficult to merge the mod now without massive complaints of players.

Btw. there is a nice modification for enemy/militia gun progression which was done by user Lev Arris. At first I wanted to incorporate it into the main 1.13 trunk but decided against it because of player feedback. The changes are good and make sense but a player who isn't aware of them will get beaten to pieces real quick. And what will they do? They will either adapt and learn new tactics or be coming to this forum complaining that they can't play the game like they used to anymore and they want the old behaviour back. The problem is that we only see the latter. Those that adapt usually do so in private.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354932 is a reply to message #354929] Mon, 17 September 2018 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise

 
Messages:33
Registered:April 2013
SDO makes NCTH system really enjoyable and it also has very good item progression.

Apart from that, I agree that NCTH makes auto-fire much more stronger compared to OCTH, but in the hands of a Merc with auto-weapons/machine gunner trait. Machine gunner Mercs using high caliber machine guns which can take x7 scopes such as FN MAG are generally more useful than snipers. Nevertheless, a sniper/marksman with 100 marksmanship with x9 sniper scope will always shoot more accurate.

Hence, my standard tactic is to shoot at moving targets with machinegunners to get them crouch/go prone. By doing so, the CtH penalty due to shooting at a moving target is gone and the sniper can then take an accurate shot at the now crouched/lying enemy.

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354935 is a reply to message #354932] Mon, 17 September 2018 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
crackwise wrote on Sun, 16 September 2018 23:30
Apart from that, I agree that NCTH makes auto-fire much more stronger compared to OCTH, but in the hands of a Merc with auto-weapons/machine gunner trait. Machine gunner Mercs using high caliber machine guns which can take x7 scopes such as FN MAG are generally more useful than snipers. Nevertheless, a sniper/marksman with 100 marksmanship with x9 sniper scope will always shoot more accurate.

Auto Weapons have always been powerful. You can send a lot of bullets to the enemy and wound or kill several opponents in one burst if they were close together. In OCTH there was another approach that was also very successful and that was headshots with sniper rifles. Most opponents would go down after a single headshot so why waste bullets? That's where the name "headshot game" came from.

I can't really complain about my snipers. Playing on Experienced with 48 battles I got these results so far:
Marksman	67 kills	20 assists	51% hit ratio
Sniper		109 kills	18 assists	61% hit ratio
Machine Gunner	51 kills	23 assists	28% hit ratio
Hunter		52 kills	28 assists	61% hit ratio
Gun Fighter	105 kills	25 assists	42% hit ratio
Ira		20 kills	15 assists	47% hit ratio

The hunter and Ira are using shotguns with buckshot which explains the high hit ratio. The gun fighter is ambidextrous and using two pistols/machine pistols (currently PP-93 with AP ammo).

This is with default 1.13 values. All in all I'm satisfied with the hit ratios of all my mercs. It's important to select the right type of weapon for the merc's traits. If the merc has no weapons traits I found it a good choice to give them a shotgun with buckshot or an SMG/assault rifle if they have good marksman stats.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354936 is a reply to message #354935] Mon, 17 September 2018 12:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gougluinn

 
Messages:61
Registered:September 2018
well, without ncth system i wouldnt be able play different strategies i guess. since hitting enemy is far more harder than vanilla (because of different type of scopes and especially you have to attach/detach scopes everytime because some weapons dont let you use iron sights) i chose to do silent night operations with knives. here my chance of hit pretty much high because i use throwing knives from close distance to blow enemies head big grin yeap throwing knives blow enemies' head. true story.

stealth/night operation/marksman

https://i.imgur.com/buRgZ3J.jpg https://i.imgur.com/uQ64xCd.jpg

sniper

https://i.imgur.com/TZgwJIl.jpg
expert dif. only conquered! drassen & near sam site also i am a save scummer.

[Updated on: Mon, 17 September 2018 12:32]

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354937 is a reply to message #354935] Mon, 17 September 2018 12:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:260
Registered:December 2017
Location: here
hit ratio does not say much, relative or among differrent players
as it differs much with playstyle, people decide to fire at different "chance thresholds"
or same person (role)plays different characters, e.g. calm and deliberate vs malicious "wanna pull the trigger" sniper.


@silversurfer 47% for Ira is remarkably high compared to your other mercs.
My avg hit ratio for mercs is > 10% higher, sniper was even 80% in last 1.13 vanilla campaign,
where I put much effort in training the weak shots incl Ira with my imp sniper (ldr 95 on last day)
after 34days/30battles Ira @mrk72 has 44Kills 12A 28%(362s 0m 1g 0k 0b 14hth 107sh),
on last day69/112battles @mrk93 she got 122K 46A 48%(605s 0m 1g 0k 0b 15hth 300sh)
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354938 is a reply to message #354935] Mon, 17 September 2018 13:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The_Bob

 
Messages:405
Registered:May 2009
Location: Behind you.
I realize it might take more than a few .ini tweaks to amend the current situation. IMO current OCTH balance is off as well, so making a few concessions there for the benefit of NCTH wouldn't break the game. Alternatively, perhaps we could add support for NCTH specific settings, for example an additional NCTH data directory with all the overrides necessary which might break OCTH balance - that could facilitate adding additional ammo drops or changing starting equipment to SMGs and low tier rifles instead of pistols, which seems to be the biggest early game issue. Easiest way would be via an additional VFS config for NCTH, with a little work it could work based on an ini setting, I dunno if it would even be possible currently to conditionally load extra data at runtime.

The point of this thread, and my general idea of these changes, is to make NCTH more accessible and enjoyable for inexperienced/first-time NCTH players. Gaming the trait system should provide additional benefits rather than being a requirement for getting mercs that can reliably shoot targets more than 5 tiles away. In OCTH this way of thinking lead to balance being poor late-game, since specialists - specifically machinegunners and snipers - could make consistently high hit rolls which resulted in superhuman feats, such entire burst salvos landing as headshots, 30+ tiles away. I think the simulated nature of NCTH will prevent this sort of thing from happening.

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354939 is a reply to message #354938] Mon, 17 September 2018 14:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
The_Bob wrote on Mon, 17 September 2018 12:02
Alternatively, perhaps we could add support for NCTH specific settings, for example an additional NCTH data directory with all the overrides necessary which might break OCTH balance - that could facilitate adding additional ammo drops or changing starting equipment to SMGs and low tier rifles instead of pistols, which seems to be the biggest early game issue.


At that point it would almost be easier (if someone can get hold of Strohmann for permission, of course) to just repackage SDO with the base game and call it Improved NCTH mod or something: He already did the most tedious (and most important) part of the job, rebalancing the coolness of all weapons and remaking starting kits for all the mercs/equipment of enemies or militia. The problem is, he also did a bunch of other stuff, and while I'm a big fan of most of it, it probably shouldn't be in base game (for example, vision range/scopes changes that are not really part of NCTH rebalance, or a drastically different LBE system with much less useful belts in place of combat packs, and so on). So, maybe we're stuck with recreating those things from scratch, if making a specific Data-NCTH is really an idea big grin


Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354940 is a reply to message #354938] Mon, 17 September 2018 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
The_Bob wrote on Mon, 17 September 2018 12:02
changing starting equipment to SMGs and low tier rifles instead of pistols, which seems to be the biggest early game issue.

We already have this today. You can select different equipment sets for mercs. Those specialized sets contain weapons specific to the merc's abilities. I'm almost willing to bet that a lot of the players haven't even noticed this feature and still buy the default equipment set.

Like you said, OCTH was never balanced. But if you nerf that now you will probably piss off a lot of the players who enjoy OCTH.

Having an additional VFS folder for "easy NCTH" may work. In that case it's just a mod. But like with other popular mods who is going to keep that data up-to-date? You may as well update SDO and recommend that for inexperienced players willing to try NCTH.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354941 is a reply to message #354940] Mon, 17 September 2018 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1446
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
I tend to mess with both AP costs and NCTH settings all through whatever campaign I'm playing. Seems to be very tricky to get something that works from start to finish.



1.13: Install JA2, unpack latest, play.
AIMNAS: Complete 1.13 installation, Download ZIP and unpack, play.

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354953 is a reply to message #354941] Tue, 18 September 2018 11:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
So I had an idea to compensate the disadvantage of poor weaponry and mercs at game start for novice players. We already have <CthConstantsBaseDifficulty> and <CthConstantsAimDifficulty> in DifficultySettings.xml.
Why don't we implement the same for militia and mercs? These new parameters however, will be dependent on game progress (maybe not for milita...). So you get the full bonus at game start and none at higher game progress because at that time you should have good gear and trained mercs anyway.

The formula would look like this:

MAX( 0; (30 - Current Progress) ) * bonus / 30

You see that the bonus will only have an effect up to progress 30, a point where the player should already have a nice assortment of weapons and attachments and at least a few well trained mercs in addition to his IMP. From that point on he shouldn't need this bonus anymore.

Why put this into DifficultySettings.xml? Because we want different values for different difficulties! Let's say we use these values for the start (for both parameters):

Novice = 10
Experienced = 5
Expert = 2 (could set 0 here because Experts shouldn't need a bonus)
Insane = -50 (just kidding ;) they get 0)

What do you think?



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354960 is a reply to message #354953] Tue, 18 September 2018 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
I don't know, inspired by this I actually started a new game on latest version, with vanilla settings (experienced, WF maps, but I delete all of the guns found on maps to simulate vanilla maps better), and it's, well, even more meh than I remembered. While the beginning is kinda crappy as only my two IMPs had any semi decent weaponry (read, not a pistol), it's still very easy to push progress to 10 at which point Tony starts having a decent choice of bottom end smgs and an occasional m1 carbine rifle or two (he has some crappy SMGs even before, so you can get them day 1). On the other hand, at this point when I control whole of Drassen(not that hard with smallish default counterattack on experienced, I think that 40 blue militia would have defended it even without me) and half of Cambria, opponents still have 99% pistols only, and they are absolutely no threat whatsoever. In fact, the only anywhere close to dangerous situation I had so far was when I misclicked and had Barry shoot Ears for about half his HP cheeky not that it mattered as he only stays in the back with radio and binoculars cheeky

So, it's mindnumbingly easy so far, 90% of opponents haven't even tried shooting at us before they die at this point. Didn't even use BR for anything but some utility stuff (radio set, some LBE). If anything, I'd say Deidranna's forces need some help early game cheeky

Now, some of that might be due to the nature of WF maps or the "new" progress calculation which probably slows down the general progress unless you move it up artificially by "exploring" lots of uninteresting sectors just to push it up that way. Still, it seems to me that anyone who finds this early game too hard is doing something wrong. Maybe pushing up pistol vs pistol fights which I avoid as they are complete random ass shit cheeky

But it's not that hard to get everyone past that point using only Tony (and other merchants if extra merchants are on, rebel quartermaster usually has a type 85 for sale and so on). Now, that requires a bit slower play style and more planning, instead of just rushing Drassen straight from Omerta on day 1.

In the end, the problem now appears even harder to me. How to make the early NCTH game more palatable for people who kinda skip the strategic part of the game and just rush into combat, while not making it insultingly easy for people who use other tools that the game gives us at this point (get better equipment in San Mona, drag some militia with you, make a night op team for early game, whatever, the game has so many options).
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354962 is a reply to message #354960] Tue, 18 September 2018 19:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
LatZee wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 16:02
I don't know, inspired by this I actually started a new game on latest version, with vanilla settings (experienced, WF maps, but I delete all of the guns found on maps to simulate vanilla maps better), and it's, well, even more meh than I remembered. While the beginning is kinda crappy as only my two IMPs had any semi decent weaponry (read, not a pistol), it's still very easy to push progress to 10

Yes, I remember that it always (also in OCTH) made a big difference if you start with just some maggots with .38 revolvers or have at least one or two decent mercs with proper weapons (one usually is the IMP).


LatZee wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 16:02

On the other hand, at this point when I control whole of Drassen(not that hard with smallish default counterattack on experienced, I think that 40 blue militia would have defended it even without me) and half of Cambria, opponents still have 99% pistols only, and they are absolutely no threat whatsoever.

Wait until I add Lev Arris' enemy weapon progression. There you will have regulars with rifles and SMGs from day 1. big grin

Btw. I didn't receive feedback for the externalized counter attack group size values (as usual...). Would you say that they are too small? Just for recap - total attack force size is (with increasing # of Elites per difficulty):
Novice		24
Experienced	40
Expert		60
Insane		96

Yeah, looking at them now it seems a little low for a large assault group. not sure


LatZee wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 16:02

Now, some of that might be due to the nature of WF maps or the "new" progress calculation which probably slows down the general progress unless you move it up artificially by "exploring" lots of uninteresting sectors just to push it up that way.

Progress doesn't increase through exploration. The default for GAME_PROGRESS_MAX_POINTS_FROM_EXPLORED_SECTORS is 0. I increased that to 5 in my game. It's still not much but better than the default in my opinion.


LatZee wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 16:02

In the end, the problem now appears even harder to me. How to make the early NCTH game more palatable for people who kinda skip the strategic part of the game and just rush into combat, while not making it insultingly easy for people who use other tools that the game gives us at this point (get better equipment in San Mona, drag some militia with you, make a night op team for early game, whatever, the game has so many options).

The goal of this thread as I see it is to make NCTH a bit more "appealing" and easier to use for players who haven't used it before. It's not so much for veteran players like us who know the ins and outs of NCTH. It should not be the goal to modify the NCTH values to make it like OCTH with a new cursor.

So if we can give the inexperienced players a little edge at the start they may get used to NCTH a little better instead of just giving up at day 1. That doesn't mean that players shouldn't be encouraged to learn to play the game. If I'd start any game and immediately select expert difficulty I shouldn't be surprised if I get my ass handed to me...

NCTH with its current defaults is working just fine and we get good hit rates with mercs with proper training, experience and equipment. An accountant with a squirt gun will and should suck no matter if we are using OCTH or NCTH.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354963 is a reply to message #354960] Tue, 18 September 2018 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1446
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
You'll need to set MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to a higher value if enemies aren't shooting at you. I know the feeling.
Wish it'd be split into MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER_PISTOLS, MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER_SMGS and so on to allow for fine-tuning.



1.13: Install JA2, unpack latest, play.
AIMNAS: Complete 1.13 installation, Download ZIP and unpack, play.

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354964 is a reply to message #354963] Tue, 18 September 2018 19:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1638
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Slax wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 21:17
You'll need to set MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to a higher value if enemies aren't shooting at you. I know the feeling.
Wish it'd be split into MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER_PISTOLS, MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER_SMGS and so on to allow for fine-tuning.

Actually, the only thing really needed is return 1% min chance for AI in NCTH beyond weapon range. Everything else is useless because AI doesn't check CTH when deciding best cover position. And if target is so far that the bullet cannot reach it, CTGT will be 0 and soldier will not shoot anyway.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r767) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"I like sharks. They're soothing"


Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354965 is a reply to message #354962] Tue, 18 September 2018 20:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
silversurfer wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 18:16

Wait until I add Lev Arris' enemy weapon progression. There you will have regulars with rifles and SMGs from day 1. big grin


It's been a long time since I played without either SDO or Lev's, so perfectly fine by me cheeky that is the reason why I decided to give vanilla a try cheeky

silversurfer wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 18:16

Btw. I didn't receive feedback for the externalized counter attack group size values (as usual...). Would you say that they are too small? Just for recap - total attack force size is (with increasing # of Elites per difficulty):
Novice		24
Experienced	40
Expert		60
Insane		96

Yeah, looking at them now it seems a little low for a large assault group. not sure


I think that they are a bit on the low side, but I did the old one (80 plus guys) enough times that my opinion probably shouldn't be considered when default values are in question cheeky anyway it's probably better to make it a bit too easy then a bit too hard, people like us know where to increase it if we want...


silversurfer wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 18:16

Progress doesn't increase through exploration. The default for GAME_PROGRESS_MAX_POINTS_FROM_EXPLORED_SECTORS is 0. I increased that to 5 in my game. It's still not much but better than the default in my opinion.


The alternate progress calculation is on by default, at least in latest SCI that I installed, so i left it on. If I'm not wrong it gives everything equal weight but only counts the one criterion that is highest. So it is kinda easy to just wander around aimlessly to increase it a bit, but unless you do that, it can be a bit slower than the standard progression. Which keeps us longer in "sticks and stones as weaponry of choice" phase cheeky
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354967 is a reply to message #354965] Tue, 18 September 2018 22:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
sevenfm wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 18:31

Actually, the only thing really needed is return 1% min chance for AI in NCTH beyond weapon range. Everything else is useless because AI doesn't check CTH when deciding best cover position. And if target is so far that the bullet cannot reach it, CTGT will be 0 and soldier will not shoot anyway.

I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about. There is a parameter AI_EXTRA_SUPPRESSION in Ja2_Options.INI. The current default is false. But that is only for setting 1% min CTH for suppression with automatic weapons. Do you suggest to generally set 1% min CTH?


LatZee wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 19:16

I think that they are a bit on the low side, but I did the old one (80 plus guys) enough times that my opinion probably shouldn't be considered when default values are in question cheeky anyway it's probably better to make it a bit too easy then a bit too hard, people like us know where to increase it if we want...

It's not just your opinion. The current defaults are only partially the old defaults. The old defaults were calculated from MinEnemyGroupSize and then the game added some more based on the difficulty level and then some more elites based again on difficulty level. I think I set the new values a bit too low and I will correct that.

LatZee wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 19:16

The alternate progress calculation is on by default, at least in latest SCI that I installed, so i left it on. If I'm not wrong it gives everything equal weight but only counts the one criterion that is highest. So it is kinda easy to just wander around aimlessly to increase it a bit, but unless you do that, it can be a bit slower than the standard progression. Which keeps us longer in "sticks and stones as weaponry of choice" phase cheeky

Nevermind. I forgot about ALTERNATE_PROGRESS_CALCULATION. There are just too many options in Ja2_Options.INI...



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354968 is a reply to message #354967] Tue, 18 September 2018 23:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1638
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 00:43
I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about. There is a parameter AI_EXTRA_SUPPRESSION in Ja2_Options.INI. The current default is false. But that is only for setting 1% min CTH for suppression with automatic weapons. Do you suggest to generally set 1% min CTH?

Yes, I think that for AI min CTH should be 1%, because it allows AI to work correctly. As far as I remember, in vanilla Ja2 code min CTH was 1%.
If AI has 0% CTH, it doesn't know what to do - it will not shoot, and it's too dumb to try to get closer, especially if it has defensive attitude or stationary orders.
In Ja2+AI, AICalcChanceToHitGun looks like:
if(Item[pSoldier->usAttackingWeapon].usItemClass & IC_THROWING_KNIFE)//dnl ch70 160913
{
	uiChance = CalcThrownChanceToHit(pSoldier, sGridNo, ubAimTime, ubAimPos);
}
else
{
	uiChance = CalcChanceToHitGun(pSoldier, sGridNo, ubAimTime, ubAimPos);

	// sevenfm: always small CTH for AI
	uiChance = max(1, uiChance);
}
...
FLOAT dMaxGunRange = dGunRange * gGameCTHConstants.MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER;
	if ( dMaxGunRange < d2DDistance)
	{
		// Weapon out of conceivable hit range. Reduce chance to hit to 0!
		// sevenfm: return 1 to allow AI to shoot
		return (1);
	}

Of course, it doesn't affect real CTH, only CTH that AI 'thinks' he has, and since in NCTH there is always some chance to hit, shooting is much better solution than just sitting and waiting to be killed.

Full AICalcChanceToHitGun function code in Ja2+AI:
Toggle Spoiler


Another useful improvement is to detect that AI soldier is equipped with short range weapon (less then half day vision range, for example) and boost morale and RangeChangeDesire for him, because the only meaningful strategy for him is rush to enemy.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r767) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"I like sharks. They're soothing"


Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354969 is a reply to message #354968] Wed, 19 September 2018 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
In default 1.13 the MINIMUM_POSSIBLE_CTH is set to 0. As this applies to everyone I guess we could simply set it to 1 instead of changing the code.

Your AICalcChanceToHitGun puzzles me. You return 1 if the target is out of dMaxGunRange but allow to return 0 if it is out of dGunRange? Is that intended?



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354970 is a reply to message #354936] Wed, 19 September 2018 00:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morbo513

 
Messages:45
Registered:February 2015
Location: West Yorkshire, United Ki...
gougluinn wrote on Mon, 17 September 2018 10:25
because of different type of scopes and especially you have to attach/detach scopes everytime because some weapons dont let you use iron sights

Sounds to me like
silversurfer wrote on Sun, 16 September 2018 10:18

[*]Players not understanding the [...] sight modes.


Pretty much all railed assault rifles can fit a reflex sight, if not on the central mount, on top of a 4x scope (iirc 7x also have this capability). Press "." to switch between the two (and hip-fire if you have that enabled).

I've not played JA2 without NCTH recently enough to even remember the differences. I find that it reflects how I'd expect combat to play out generally - it's mostly about suppression and accuracy by volume, while you need really good equipment and very skilled shooters to leverage sniper rifles or anything approaching that territory.
That said however, I do think there's room for improvement.
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354971 is a reply to message #354969] Wed, 19 September 2018 00:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1638
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 02:02
In default 1.13 the MINIMUM_POSSIBLE_CTH is set to 0. As this applies to everyone I guess we could simply set it to 1 instead of changing the code.

It will fix bad AI behavior (for OCTH) but it's not the same as it will allow, for example, hitting enemy in the head when shooting with a pistol at 300m (when using OCTH).
But in general, I think that min CTH should be 1%, at least when shooting at torso/legs.

Quote:
Your AICalcChanceToHitGun puzzles me. You return 1 if the target is out of dMaxGunRange but allow to return 0 if it is out of dGunRange? Is that intended?

I probably need to add some more max(1, chance) conditions, but I don't like how MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER is implemented anyway, will probably rework it some day.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2018 00:30]




7609+fix | 7609+AI (r767) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"I like sharks. They're soothing"


Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354983 is a reply to message #354970] Wed, 19 September 2018 13:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gougluinn

 
Messages:61
Registered:September 2018
Morbo513 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 00:09
gougluinn wrote on Mon, 17 September 2018 10:25
because of different type of scopes and especially you have to attach/detach scopes everytime because some weapons dont let you use iron sights

Sounds to me like

silversurfer wrote on Sun, 16 September 2018 10:18
[*]Players not understanding the [...] sight modes.

Pretty much all railed assault rifles can fit a reflex sight, if not on the central mount, on top of a 4x scope (iirc 7x also have this capability). Press "." to switch between the two (and hip-fire if you have that enabled).

I've not played JA2 without NCTH recently enough to even remember the differences. I find that it reflects how I'd expect combat to play out generally - it's mostly about suppression and accuracy by volume, while you need really good equipment and very skilled shooters to leverage sniper rifles or anything approaching that territory.
That said however, I do think there's room for improvement.

in expert diff. ive conquered all drassen, cambria + 2 sam sites and havent found a damn single reflex sight (found lots of sniper rifles with 7x-10x scope but they are useless for me since 2x scope is deadly important and havent found yet). most assault rifles i found dont let me use iron sights if you attached scope on it. you have to detach scopes.

just because of this NCTH i conquered all drassen cambria and 2 sam sites in night ops. with using mostly stealth knife kills. lets say i killed 200 of 300 enemies with using only knives.

i think i didnt like the new inventory system too. most times i found myself trying to put some items on some pockets that mostly not fit. just imagine that i have 4 different scopes in my pockets and bipod ofc. custom pocket system also not work properly. pocket size should be increased or item sizes should be decreased to carry things properly.

i also think to disable tons of guns option next time to prevent bazillion of weapons spam with exact same stats. after seeing a lot of different weapons with same stats i lost my interest on weapon stats and stopped comparing them.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2018 14:00]

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354994 is a reply to message #354983] Wed, 19 September 2018 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
Elites may sometimes have reflex sights on their gun but only at higher progress values. This thing is a coolness 9 item! Other than that it can be found as a pre-placed item on certain maps or maybe at Tony or BR (depending on your BR settings earlier or later in the game). Some guns come with a reflex sight, the "Tavor TAR 21" for example. Sometimes I just buy one of these to get a reflex sight. big grin



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354995 is a reply to message #354994] Wed, 19 September 2018 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ZedJA2

 
Messages:51
Registered:January 2018
@ LatZee

What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?

@ ALL

SUGGESTION: LINKING A SET OF OPTIONS when either choosing NCTH or OCTH

Look, for lesser aficionados or new players, there are so many things that influence whether or not we think NCTH or OCTH is good, that it is just too complicated to expect them to find and adjust each function or variable or setting to get it all to work well, since it is all inter-related.

I mean, look, NCTH supposedly requires more pistol shots to hit than OCTH per LatZee, something I'd probably agree with. But how does Suppression affect all this? The game seems adjusted to provide more pistol ammo, so that seems okay in usage, though it is a bit tighter supply. Aim-clicks seem to have at least 3 and probably 4 possible variables to worry about, especially if you also consider MERC class specialties and backgrounds. What if someone plays without backgrounds?

Another input is whether or not people play with several IMPs or not, whether they allow for enemy tanks or not, whether they use militia a lot or not. Those are personal easy to control choices, I get that. But saying that NCTH or OCTH is too hard or all that, it doesn't include all of those variables in the synopsis. (I mean if you customize the game to balance with just the MERC lists, doesn't having IMPs allow you to work the system? You can't balance both perfectly. So what is balance, and what is the norm?)

So, to get around some of this, how about the experienced modders, coders, and players come up with OPTION SETS -- a chosen recommended set of options in all the .ini and xml files that are meant to achieve a certain baseline effect. If this was even automated by the NCTH or OCTH choice, but possible to override/customize in the various option files, this might be more helpful.

I mean -- the discussion here between people like Silversurfer and LatZee are very valuable and interesting -- but seriously there is little chance that most players can even follow or have valuable input on all this. We have a good feel for the game, but I've never even fooled with the Constants whatever file, because I realized that I'd have to really decide even more on how I wanted aim-clicks to work, and all the rest -- and seriously I'm not sure how all of that works together well enough to deal with an additional 4 hours of getting it all right. It already takes hours to customize a new JA2options.ini if I don't have a back-up, and the Difficulties file, and all that.

Meanwhile the Reinforcements systems over 20 enemies or friendlies at a time is STILL screwed up. So to the player, which matters more? That sure impacts the game and the mod's impression a whole lot more.

Please excuse my seeming rant. But, this is getting arcane. If the experts don't make it simpler to set this up, then slowly JA2 is moving the way of the dodo.

So you might have the LatZee Custom Set-Up with a readme. The SilverSurfer Adventure Set-Up, the LatZeeNoobIMPGangSet-Up, the OCTHorBustSetUp, etc. That way I could lose to the AI 152 times a year in different ways instead of 22 times a year the same dang way. happy

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2018 22:11]

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354996 is a reply to message #354995] Wed, 19 September 2018 23:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
NCTH requires more shots with all guns. That's fine and more realistic than OCTH can ever get. That's why you won't see a "SilverSurfer Adventure Set-Up". The current defaults are my setup and they are working well. Of course there are players who don't like the defaults because they want gun shots to be more accurate. Fine. They can adjust the game to their liking. If I don't like the food system I have to turn it off as well, or adjust the handling values for shotguns or ...

There are mods like SDO who aim at players who want NCTH to be easier. They give you modified ini and XML files which you can use if you don't want to modify the game yourself.

My approach for "newbie" players was to give them a little edge at the start so they are not struggling so much with their pistols (if they selected only mercs with pistols). When they made some progress they will have better gear so they don't need the initial boost anymore. In my opinion this is a better solution than making 10 mods with different parameter sets that nobody understands anyway.

Btw. aim clicks are really easy to explain. In NCTH they just define how many AP slots you have to spend for reaching max aim. So the best number of aim clicks on a gun is 1. One aim click and the gun is fully aimed with very little AP spend for that single click.

For your interest I'm going to implement the additional parameters in DifficultySettings.xml. If anyone is going to make use of them is up to them. At least we have consistency if we can modify the values for all combatants. Yes, there will be defaults. If someone doesn't like them, just set them to 0 and you are back at vanilla.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354998 is a reply to message #354995] Thu, 20 September 2018 01:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise

 
Messages:33
Registered:April 2013
ZedJA2 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 22:07
@ LatZee

What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?




SDO is Stock Data Overhaul, which is an item mod that can be installed on top of vanilla 1.13 or various other mods. I have discovered it recently, before that was playing Vanilla 1.13. Now having played with SDO, I would never go back to Vanilla.

And here is why: Apart from the stupid item progression of Vanilla, which has been discussed here in detail, Vanilla 1.13 also had strange default NCTH parameters. For instance, characters without auto-weapon trait and somewhat low marksmanship, when given SMGs or ARs, could quite often shoot their auto-fire salvo in the air instead of the enemy. The weapon recoil behavior was hence ridiculously broken.

SDO fixes those problems. First, it introduces meaningful item progression such that enemies start with SMGs and carbines. Gradually progressing with old WP assault-rifles, then older AR series etc. Second, and the most important of all, it modifies all weapon parameters such that they perform properly with NCTH. Spraying the air with auto-fire occurs much less often (unfortunately, still occurs sometimes, but quite rare now). Apart from that, auto-fire dispersion is generally much better. It also increases the APs required to ready the gun for aiming. I found them quite low in Vanilla, indicating a lightening-fast unrealistic lifting of the gun.

SDO changes the LBE system a bit and includes a lot of new packs, belts etc. I personally find it really nice, but it may be a bit overkill for some in terms of variety.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 September 2018 01:16]

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #354999 is a reply to message #354998] Thu, 20 September 2018 06:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
Well, seems you got the answers more or less already, so I'll ramble a bit more about the general context that may be unknown to newer players.

Historically, the game shipped with the system that is more or less similar to what we nowadays call OCTH for old chance to hit system. There is nothing wrong with it, it is very similar to most of turn based RPG from those time (like Fallout 1/2 for example). It has been extended and changed with time as 1.13 got more complex and all that, but the principles were mostly the same.

At some point in time, guy named Headrock started working on a different chance to hit system, aptly called NCTH for new chance to hit... it was a bit raw at the start, but with time it was polished to the point where it is now, which is pretty decent. Now we come to one of the problems, where some people think that NCTH is an improved version of OCTH. It is not. It was never meant to be. It is a completely different system that relies on completely different base philosophy.

OCTH is, as I said, more or less very RPG-ish system. It's simple, clean, reliable and predictable. Many people like that, and there is nothing wrong with that. NCTH is in comparison more of a modern-ish war simulator than a RPG. It is often dirty and seemingly random. And it puts emphasis on using high volume of automatic fire instead of small amount of precision shots. Which is more or less the reality for the last about 70 years.

NCTH through time garnered lots of complaints, Some were deserved and things were gradually improved, Many were not, and stemmed more from misunderstanding the ways in which NCTH differs from OCTH by design. Nowadays, I think that both systems are in decent shape (both could be improved further of course), and choosing one over other is purely a preference thing, it's not like one is better than the other. So there is nothing wrong with i.e. liking OCTH more or anything like that. Both systems are here to stay, I don't believe anyone is planning to remove one of them from the game, and both should stay different and diverse as they are. That's the whole point of it.

There is really no need for any kind of special setup from me, or from silversurfer or anyone else. NCTH settings are in decent enough shape by default, and any change I would make is 100% a thing of personal preference, not some drastically needed change. It's just that the early portion of the game is not really giving you the resources needed to play the way NCTH is supposed to be played. If you're stuck in pistol vs pistol fights, it can get pretty messy. But pistols vs pistols fights shouldn't ever happen with NCTH. In NCTH, pistols should only be used as sidearms, so something you pull out if action gets into very close quarters. But the base game is stuck with things the way they are as that is the way it was set up with OCTH. And if it was set up the NCTH way, OCTH would suffer. So that is something that might need some kind of solution.

One of the ways to solve is it by using additional mods which change weapon progression and starting equipment of mercs/enemies/militia. SDO is one of them, the one that I believe represents the original vision behind NCTH the best. I wouldn't really call it an easier NCTH implementation, as it might generally be even a bit harder until you learn how things work a bit better (generally everyone start with better weapons, but increased base vision range and a bit stricter CTHConstants make it maybe even bit more imprecise than vanilla NCTH). But it also has some other changes that are probably a bit more controversial, and that is why I don't think that it should be part of the base game, even though I like them.

SDO is not an only option. Arulco Folding Stock is a bit more "gun porn" mod with lots of weapons and attachments, and it comes with a bit more relaxed and easier NCTH implementation. Or already mentioned Lev's progression which is pretty bare boned mod that doesn't try to reclassify weapons or anything like that, and just gives everyone a bit better weapons to start. Or AIMNAS/Bigmaps if you want to try something even a bit more different and ambitious, although it's not finished yet and comes with what is, for me at least, a bit too much of "OCTH pretending to be NCTH" version of NCTH big grin

Even without any mods, base NCTH is playable, but probably requires using the tools that the game gives you to lessen the pain of early game and avoid getting into stupid pistol vs pistol fights, that favour the side with higher numbers, which shouldn't be us cheeky
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355006 is a reply to message #354999] Thu, 20 September 2018 10:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
Nice summary, LatZee. And again, for anyone who is interested, read Headrock's NCTH presentation. It explains a lot of the details and ideas behind NCTH and why this new system was implemented. It's still the best single source of information about NCTH. NCTH is a whole different system that doesn't even need to be anywhere close to OCTH. If he just wanted to improve OCTH he could have done that.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355011 is a reply to message #354998] Thu, 20 September 2018 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gougluinn

 
Messages:61
Registered:September 2018
crackwise wrote on Thu, 20 September 2018 01:14
ZedJA2 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 22:07
@ LatZee
What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?

SDO is Stock Data Overhaul, which is an item mod that can be installed on top of vanilla 1.13 or various other mods. I have discovered it recently,

looks like there is some secret agreement over sdo here i guess. no one wants people to discover that mod. if any forum mod reads here please add "SDO" to Stock Data Overhaul's thread title because no one writes Stock Data Overhaul when he talks about it and when you search thread title with SDO you find nothing.

[Updated on: Thu, 20 September 2018 14:59]

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355012 is a reply to message #355011] Thu, 20 September 2018 16:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2382
Registered:May 2009
The search function doesn't work properly in this forum. It doesn't seem to be able to find old posts. The term "SDO" is in the opening post for SDO so the search function should be able to find it. Because of that issue I posted the link to SDO a few posts earlier but it seems that people tend to overlook such links.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355013 is a reply to message #355011] Thu, 20 September 2018 16:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax

 
Messages:1446
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
gougluinn wrote on Thu, 20 September 2018 14:56
crackwise wrote on Thu, 20 September 2018 01:14
ZedJA2 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 22:07
@ LatZee
What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?

SDO is Stock Data Overhaul, which is an item mod that can be installed on top of vanilla 1.13 or various other mods. I have discovered it recently,

looks like there is some secret agreement over sdo here i guess. no one wants people to discover that mod. if any forum mod reads here please add "SDO" to Stock Data Overhaul's thread title because no one writes Stock Data Overhaul when he talks about it and when you search thread title with SDO you find nothing.

Feels like acronyms have been something of a problem for a long time. HAM, EDB, IOV, SDO, AIMNAS, OCTH, NCTH. All related to 1.13 but still very different things. Fine for anyone who's been around for a long time but seeing all of this stuff as a newcomer? Oh man! Info's so spread out too that... well, something should be done about that.

Getting off topic here but let's try something.

Updating the wiki would be the optimal solution here. I've tried to put together various "Get your ass in gear" videos over the years to try and help newbies get off the ground when it comes to setting stuff up, learning how and what to modify and so on. You know, get the most out of your 1.13 experience. The problem is that I couldn't possibly fit enough information into even a 30 minute video. Mostly because having visual aids takes up a good chunk of time and there is A LOT to show off. People would need to pause the videos and... ugh, it's just a mess. Not exactly optimal. So I tried condensing and cutting down information but that doesn't work any better. People don't understand, they ask questions about the most basic of things and I become some kind of eternal Q&A machine. I don't want that.

How do I do that? What is that? What is the hotkey for X? Where do I get that mod? What is a mod? How do I merge mod X with mod Y in 2 minutes or less? How is babby formed? how u get autofire 2 not shot at sky??????? pls halp

"Check the forums" is what I ended up telling most people. Or, "Read what's in the ini files." Depends on the problem, of course.

So, the wiki. The front page links to an ancient build and that's about it. Not really relevant at all anymore. It needs a completely reworked front page with links to common topics. Getting started, basic modding, advanced modding, where to get X, some kind of encyclopedia. All of the things! Gonna take a lot of time to write up all of that stuff but... why not work together?



1.13: Install JA2, unpack latest, play.
AIMNAS: Complete 1.13 installation, Download ZIP and unpack, play.

Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355015 is a reply to message #355011] Thu, 20 September 2018 17:46 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
LatZee

 
Messages:85
Registered:December 2015
gougluinn wrote on Thu, 20 September 2018 13:56

looks like there is some secret agreement over sdo here i guess. no one wants people to discover that mod. if any forum mod reads here please add "SDO" to Stock Data Overhaul's thread title because no one writes Stock Data Overhaul when he talks about it and when you search thread title with SDO you find nothing.


Don't think that SDO is some magical solution for all problems, it is mentioned here a lot because this thread attracts some of us weirdo NCTH purist folks, which would naturally gravitate towards SDO. For some of your "problems" that you mention, SDO will even make it far harder. For example, SDO removes all combat packs from the game and introduces far more limited belts in their place. So it would mess even more with your plan to carry 4 scopes and a bipod somewhere on every merc cheeky

Honestly, no one in the world does that. Scopes are big, bulky and somewhat sensitive pieces of equipment. If you need to transport around one not attached to your rifle, you will usually carry it in a suitcase it comes with. No one in the world carries different scopes around, and they are not meant to be hotswappable in midst of combat.

In a way, I think that you're trying to game the system, and system is fighting you back, that is one of sources of your problems. Scopes are very powerful in the game (probably even too powerful), and their down sides are meant to be a balancing factor. That would be completely inefficient if you could hotswap in the best scope for every situation. The game is trying to force you to choose one scope (and whether to put bipod on a gun or not) and live with the consequences. That means that you probably need to be flexible with your equipment and accept that not everyone in your team will be ideally equipped for every situation.
Previous Topic: Custom Laptop Background Compilations
Next Topic: Is there an .ini setting which allows unlimited contract extension?
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Sep 24 19:04:04 EEST 2018

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01710 seconds