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Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354972] Wed, 19 September 2018 00:52 Go to next message
Morbo513

 
Messages:47
Registered:February 2015
Location: West Yorkshire, United Ki...
Let me preface by saying I have little clue as to the technical feasibility of any of these ideas.
The main focus of this is going to be on the 2 and 4x scopes against the 7x. In my experience, there's zero incentive to use the former two in place of the latter, ditto with a 2x in place of a 4x. The only situations I've found myself using them in is if a particular weapon is incompatible with the higher magnification scopes - Which its self doesn't make much sense to me; if it's got rails it should be able to mount any compatible scope, but I digress.

How are the scopes currently balanced against one another? Field of view, to my knowledge, is the only diminished aspect for higher-magnification scopes. I imagine there's probably some background stat buggery, but it's never been apparent enough through gameplay to paint the 7x as anything but the optimal choice for assault and battle rifles.


The first and probably easiest idea I've had for changing this is through APs. At the most basic level, scopes could increase the APs-to-ready cost of the weapon it's attached to, by how much depending on its magnification. This would emulate the mechanics of eye relief. If we wanted to get really finnicky, higher marksmanship could reduce (but never eliminate) this malus.
Of course it'd only be incurred if readying the weapon while in scope "mode", which brings us to...

Exacerbating the 7x' superiority is that there's no penalty for swapping optic modes, allowing you to check your mercs' peripheries without spending a single AP and therefore nullifying the disadvantages of higher-power scopes. This should definitely change - however, the player should have to "confirm" the optic mode they're swapping to so as to avoid inadvertently wasted APs. Since it's such a small action the cost could be minor - 1-2 when swapping from scope to reflex/hip, 2-4 swapping back.
Following on from the previous idea, readying the weapon while in reflex mode could reduce APs-to-ready, with ironsights being the true neutral.

Taking inspiration from the Battlefield series, scopes could have "glare" - In effect, making the wielder slightly more visible to anyone in the scope's field of view (Regardless of current sight mode), even marginally increasing the CtH against them. This effect could scale differently with the vision range of each scope. For example, a 2x scope would only have this effect out to 2/3 of its range; with a 4x it'd get up to 90%; For the 7x it would extend 15% or so past its vision range, and 10x 30%. Alternatively, the visibility/CtH effects could vary by intensity.

This next idea is where technical feasibility/work-to-benefit admittedly calls it into question. Assuming such concerns could be addressed, scopes could have dirt values of their own.
When dirty, random segments of their vision cones would be partially or totally obscured, and/or reduced in range, leading to blind spots in the optic. Smaller scopes have less surface area to accrue dirt and so suffer from this less. Alternatively or additionally, scope dirt could reduce the shooter's CtH or increase number of aim clicks.
There could then be a "wipe scope" action which takes one or two APs to perform.

A further option is to remove the 7x' ability to mount a reflex sight, and precluding the mounting of one directly on the weapon - instead giving them an "ironsight" mode, where the shooter looks along the top of the scope to acquire targets in closer quarters. This would be less effective than the weapon's true ironsights. Or, mounting the reflex on the weapon as opposed to on top of the scope has it canted, increasing autofire CtH penalties, something along those lines.

Finally, expanding the content with these ideas in mind would be cool. For example lens caps/sleeves which protect scopes from dirt, are removed/popped when the weapon is first readied at an extra AP cost (Or done manually by the player). A few different models of each scope with their own minor attributes, for example an ACOG with no back-up sights but a glare hider; a SUSAT that's more resilient to dirt and has a back-up sight but produces more glare, you get the picture.

That's just about all I've got off the top of my head, but if any of you have more ideas feel free to throw them in.

Ed: Just had another one; The higher the magnification of the scope, the greater the CtH penalty against a moving target, to emulate the difficulty of tracking them visually and maintaining a lead. Now the maths there doesn't quite do it, but that's the general gist.
Ideally, at the scope's maximum vision range this effect would be minimised, even eliminated. But the closer the moving target is to the shooter, the greater the effect.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 September 2018 01:02]

Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354973 is a reply to message #354972] Wed, 19 September 2018 01:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1666
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
Morbo513 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 02:52
Ed: Just had another one; The higher the magnification of the scope, the greater the CtH penalty against a moving target, to emulate the difficulty of tracking them visually and maintaining a lead.

It's implemented in my Ja2+AI project: it's harder to shoot at moving target using high magnification scope, both in OCTH and NCTH.
It can also be implemented in stock 1.13 to some degree by using <PercentTargetTrackingSpeed> modifier, but only for NCTH.



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Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354974 is a reply to message #354972] Wed, 19 September 2018 01:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:93
Registered:December 2015
The scopes are balanced mainly through increasing AP needed to aim and having a minimum effective range, below which they actually make it harder to hit. It is one of main generator of NCTH complaints, because people are kinda used from OCTH that the ideal response to every situation is equiping mercs with the biggest gun they have and attaching fucking Hubble telescope to it cheeky

That means that shooting with 7x scope at enemies at something like 20 tiles away is pretty futile. In fact, without looking at CTHConstants, i think that the minumum range for 7x is normal shooting range (70) times its magnification (7) times 0.7 factor for min effective range which would be around 34 tiles which is pretty large distance. At that point you start accumulating maluses instead of bonuses to hit, so it will quite often not be the ideal scope.

Although honestly, with the way scope vision bonuses break AI, I would really like the game to make scopes even harder to use unless the merc is highly proficient shooter, and replace their role with a line of progressively better non magnifying sights that would give to hit bonuses, bot not bonus vision. But I think that's not really something many people would like...
Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354975 is a reply to message #354973] Wed, 19 September 2018 06:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Morbo513

 
Messages:47
Registered:February 2015
Location: West Yorkshire, United Ki...
The fact that scopes are poor in close quarters is well and fine, until pressing . gets around that in an instant. As you mention, its vision bonus is extremely powerful and in my opinion, needs to come at a greater cost even if its negative tradeoffs weren't subverted by free sight-mode switching.

sevenfm wrote on Tue, 18 September 2018 23:06

It's implemented in my Ja2+AI project: it's harder to shoot at moving target using high magnification scope, both in OCTH and NCTH.
It can also be implemented in stock 1.13 to some degree by using <PercentTargetTrackingSpeed> modifier, but only for NCTH.

That's awesome. Where is this value stored?
Aw: Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354978 is a reply to message #354975] Wed, 19 September 2018 09:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ATigersClaw

 
Messages:193
Registered:October 2014
Location: Brunswick, Germany
I can't confirm that putting on 7x scopes on assault rifles is the best solution (NCTH).
As LatZee pointed out, the penalties a 7x scope offers on medium ranges, in which you encounter most of your enemies, are not beneficial.
Therefore, I am always using 4x scopes on all my assault rifles (FAMAS, G11 etc.).
Besides that, I only have my sniper with a 10 x scope and one suppression fire mercenary with a 7x scope on an LMG (HK E21) because it has a rather high range.



“Discipline is choosing between what you want now and what you want most.” - Abraham Lincoln
Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354981 is a reply to message #354975] Wed, 19 September 2018 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee

 
Messages:93
Registered:December 2015
Morbo513 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 05:54
The fact that scopes are poor in close quarters is well and fine, until pressing . gets around that in an instant. As you mention, its vision bonus is extremely powerful and in my opinion, needs to come at a greater cost even if its negative tradeoffs weren't subverted by free sight-mode switching.


Well, pressing . with 7x scope leaves you with iron sights, which is ok for closer quarters, let's say up to maybe 15 tiles. That leaves the whole mid range of 15-30 tiles distances where both 7x and iron sights are suboptimal. That is some kind of weakness. It's great if you can constantily spot enemies at 40 plus ranges. On the other hand, if a significant amount of enemies can get a bit closer in, 4x scope (which also allows use of reflex sight as an alternative) might be better. I think that the balance between different scopes works decently, it's all scopes vs enemies who don't use scopes or use them poorly where balance gets problematic.
Re: Aw: Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354982 is a reply to message #354978] Wed, 19 September 2018 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
There are several points to consider in regard to scopes. Like others already pointed out a 7x scope is a bad choice for an AR in NCTH because of the CTH penalty for close range. Maybe on Big Maps with highly increased view distance for everyone they work well but certainly not on normal maps with default engagement distances. Like ATigersClaw I'm using only 4x scopes on my ARs. The only ones that get 7x scopes are my snipers.
4x scopes and above have the <BlockIronSight> set so you can't switch to iron sights at all. 2x scopes don't have that disadvantage. So unless you can find some reflex sights you are even better served with a 2x scope.

Another point to consider is scope effectiveness. A poor merc cannot make good use of a scope. Therefore I don't even give the poor mercs a scope at all because they are better with iron sights. This could be expanded to make it even more difficult to use higher power scopes but I don't really deem it necessary.

7x and 10x scopes already increase Aim Levels so it takes more AP to fully aim. That's another disadvantage of the higher power scopes. Yes, this only applies to NCTH...

The <PercentTargetTrackingSpeed> modifier sounds interesting. Like some other parameters it's not used at all in 1.13 currently. I'm open for change if someone could provide good values for the different scopes.

I'm not interested in the introduction of AP costs for switching sight modes. If we did that we'd also have to implement AP costs for changing firing modes for example and code some confirmation system for both. Sounds much too complicated and not very useful.

The idea of a "glare effect" sounds interesting as well. It could work somewhat like lasers, it could reduce your camo value when the gun is raised.

An extra dirt system for scopes? C'mon! I was happy to get rid of the old dirt system that required the use of a cleaning kit after every fight... thumbs down

Last but not least I don't think we should be removing the ability to add reflex sights to 7x scopes because why? You can add that in real life if you want so why should we restrict it?



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Re: Aw: Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354984 is a reply to message #354982] Wed, 19 September 2018 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sevenfm

 
Messages:1666
Registered:December 2012
Location: Soviet Russia
silversurfer wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 15:20
The <PercentTargetTrackingSpeed> modifier sounds interesting. Like some other parameters it's not used at all in 1.13 currently. I'm open for change if someone could provide good values for the different scopes.

I think to have any significant effect, these values should be high, like (-5) * scope_mag, so -50 for 10x scope and -10 for 2x scope. Reflex sights could have some positive modifier, for example 15-25, like in SDO mod.

Quote:
I'm not interested in the introduction of AP costs for switching sight modes. If we did that we'd also have to implement AP costs for changing firing modes for example and code some confirmation system for both. Sounds much too complicated and not very useful.

Agree it's a strange idea. If somebody wants AP costs for switching sights, he can just disable scope modes and use scope transformations instead, it's just some XML work.



7609+fix | 7609+AI (r790) | 7609 unofficial modpack | Win8+ fix | Experimental project | Vengeance:Reloaded | Youtube

"It's already "dog-eat-dog", friend. Not sure what worse a bunch of zombies could do."


Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354990 is a reply to message #354973] Wed, 19 September 2018 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1078
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
I reworked how scope give bonuses and maluses in AV. I also use Sevenfm's executable to base the changes on, so his work on the code is a major factor on how everything with NCTH works. First I took all the integral scope modifiers off of the weapons that have it included, and placed them on the scope. I thought that a scope, as an attachment, should not modify the weapon's modifiers, but it's own. That allows scopes to be taken off and not leave the AP modifier still affecting the performance of the weapon. For an example of what I did to the scopes here are the 2x & 10 x compared. I also added all the missing scope magnifications - 3x, 5x, 8x, 9x.

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In game play with AV the result is close to what I think a balance of real life and game play. But I am always looking to improve it.




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Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #354993 is a reply to message #354990] Wed, 19 September 2018 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2407
Registered:May 2009
I like how some penalties go down with stance. Makes sense for cap and aim levels. I wonder if this works as well for mounted guns.

Negative <PercentReadyTimeAPReduction> is for slower readying of the weapon which is one of Morbo513's requests. I like it.

Negative <PercentCounterForceAccuracy> makes sense because how can someone properly keep a target in sight during full auto? Noted. Although I wonder if there is a full auto gun that accepts a 10x scope. big grin But I understand that you gave this property to the 10x scope for consistency.

I hope we can "borrow" some of your settings for 1.13 if you don't mind? thumbs up

Only <PercentHandling> seems very excessive to me. Sniper rifles already have high handling values. If we increase them by such a large amount even marksmen and snipers will have a hard time with those weapons. Personally I prefer scope effectiveness which serves the same purpose of making sniper rifles ineffective for untrained mercs.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: Rebalancing Scope and sight mode mechanics[message #355000 is a reply to message #354993] Thu, 20 September 2018 07:17 Go to previous message
edmortimer

 
Messages:1078
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free
Quote:
Only <PercentHandling> seems very excessive to me. Sniper rifles already have high handling values. If we increase them by such a large amount even marksmen and snipers will have a hard time with those weapons. Personally I prefer scope effectiveness which serves the same purpose of making sniper rifles ineffective for untrained mercs.


I removed the built-in AP malus on sniper rifles - basically saying a M40 without a scope is just a match rifle and should be basically the same as a regular rifle - like the Remington 700 it came from. That's why the <PercentHandling> is so high.

Thanks for the pointers. And of course you can use what you want - or midify it to your liking. No problemo.




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