Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance 2 » The A.I.M. Library » Do you allow casualties?
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #29169]
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Mon, 23 October 2006 12:45
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Wounded Ronin |
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Messages:75
Registered:August 2006 |
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Well, right now I mostly reload when somebody dies because that's what I feel like doing. HOWEVER, I've been considering starting a game on Novice in which I don't reload for that kind of thing. (I'd just save the game and reload if there's a crash or bug.)
This is the way I see it. In real life if somebody sees too much combat he'll eventually run out of luck, no matter how good he is, and die. In the game it would be the same way. Therefore, I'd structure my whole team based on the assumption that good people are going to die, even if it's something really stupid and out of the blue like weird friendly fire episodes. I also wouldn't use an IMP in such a game because I feel like having a character on the ground who is supposed to represent the trenchcoated figure in the intro movie would clash with my idea of the trenchcoat figure as being a detached and cool commander who is accepting casualties as part of the risks of war.
(Personally, I don't really see the IMP as an alter ego anyway. Usually I model the IMP after my favorite first person shooter heroes, like John Mullins, or testosterone-fueled movie characters like Rambo and Lone Wolf McQuade.)
In my opinion, a game in which you allow all deaths would become very much about risk management. You'd have to play conservatively, retreat a lot, and basically try to create a situation where your characters are fired upon as little as is possible. The game would shift away from trying to successfully take over a town sector and it would shift towards minimizing any form of risk.
It also would be a lot less of a good idea to go and kill endless streams of redshirts because the gradual stat gains your team would win would be offset by deaths and stat losses. I'd focus less on character progression and more on risk management.
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Corporal
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #138159]
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Wed, 09 May 2007 08:15
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daytripper |
Messages:1
Registered:May 2007 |
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I had to register if only to relate this experiance:
After taking Cambria one game, Shadow and my IMP guy were badly wounded. So those two stayed at the hospital to heal/train militia while I formed a new squad with Ira, Blood and the two Russians, Igor and Ivan thinking they could handle the next town themselves.
Well...first they got ambushed by blood-cats and shot off a good amount of ammo while taking a few scrapes, "ok" I thought I'll play it safe and return them to Cambria. On the way back they ran into a large contingent (15-20) of soldiers in daylight and I decided to fight it out to get them back via the quickest (road) route.
The fight went poorly and I ended up with igor and ivan dead, blood near-dead, and Ira pinned down behind a rock + wounded. At this point the enemy demanded my surrender which I accepted making blood and ira POWs.
Low on cash, with only shadow and my main man I had to mount a desperate night-rescue to save blood and ira...they succeeded after damn bloody fight which at one point had them picking up crappy enemy pistols just for want of ammo! Most satisfying mission ever.
The reason I never reload is because tough situations like that would never occur if you reloaded every time a merc got killed. Plus it WAS my understanding that if you save and reload during a battle the game keeps track of it and reduced the amount/quality of the dead-enemy loot...maybe just on expert though...
I played JA2 off and on for some time and eventually only played it on expert, and real medkits with a self-imposed iron-man rule, to each his own though: fun is fun.
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Civilian
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #138228]
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Wed, 09 May 2007 21:08
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DudeWheresMyTank |
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Messages:51
Registered:August 2006 Location: Canada |
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I accept wounds and lost attribute points, but I rarely let a merc die without reloading, especially my favorite ones early on. However, with the way I play, with 1.13 equipment and new tactics, I hardly ever see casualties and deaths nowadays until I get close to Meduna. By then a couple of dead merc means little as the game is pretty much over
[Updated on: Wed, 09 May 2007 21:08] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #138943]
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Wed, 16 May 2007 04:27
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Thor |
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Messages:423
Registered:February 2007 Location: Belgium |
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I play until my current team is dead or until it is impossible to survive a battle. Then I start a new game. When playing alone I don't always play with IMPS. I never reload because someone's dead, I continue or restart when it's totally hopeless to save time.
At the moment I usually just play the game with my buddy. We create 2 IMPS (one for each) and play. If in the beginning someone dies we always restart completely. Otherwise we recreate the deceased merc at level 1 & beginning stats and that's the penalty. No excuses allowed. I only save for backup cf. the autosave feature. Btw. the hot keys don't seem to work, but after a crash I usually just rename it to another savegame.
We also restart when a new version is coming out and important stuff is changed. So much restarting at the moment.
[Updated on: Fri, 18 May 2007 21:39] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #139008]
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Wed, 16 May 2007 21:43
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Ryan |
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Messages:5
Registered:August 2006 Location: England |
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I always carry on, no matter what. I remember once attacking a SAM site and I took out most of the elites, exept the one on the roof with a LAW. I didn't see him in time. I spread my mercs out most of the battle, however I decided to close the formation when approaching the building, which led to 1 of them being killed out right, and the others in a futile attempt to save the dying mercs on the floor, being wasted too. :computer2:
I felt like smashing my monitor in, but I never reloaded. I just hired new mercs and carried on, though it's tough when you lose a squad.
That was a one off, my mercs never die, have faith in their skills and equipment.. (thx to 1.13 mod) :bluegrin:
The only time I fear a merc dying is when opening doors and the enemy getting an interrupt, which can be fatal. Or a well placed LAW then a rush by the elites when my mercs are down.... :wb:
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Private
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #180817]
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Fri, 11 April 2008 08:39
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Captain Taipan |
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Messages:48
Registered:December 2007 Location: Western Australia |
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I prefer not to reload if possible however there's been times when something has gone completely FUBAR in the battle and the entire attacking team is wasted, morale plummets and good gear is lost then I might just hit that reload button. [eg: A-squad of Igor, Ice, Grunty, Wolf, Ivan and my IMP all get taken out when a LAW hits Ice who was loaded with dynamite and everyone around him went boom!] :sadyellow:
It's more fun though to roll with those punches, use those set backs as a way of enhancing your game experience.
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Corporal
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #197711]
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Tue, 30 September 2008 00:42
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IrishRebel |
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Messages:36
Registered:September 2008 Location: Galway |
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Although it can be difficult not to hit reload, in the long run i find it better to embrace casualties, it adds an actual value to Armour if you don't reload every time you get hit, otherwise why wear it if you just rewind at the slightest scratch. Surely It's much more satisfying when you equip your guy to take a shot rather than go through the whole game expecting a clean sheet.
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Private 1st Class
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204301]
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Thu, 18 December 2008 08:44
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incognito253 |
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Messages:53
Registered:December 2008 Location: Ohio, USA |
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I had three phases in the time I've played Jagged Alliance 2. I bought it the week it came out.
The first phase, when everyone is a noob and widespread media in regards to the mathematical game content does not yet exist, also when I was 15, was the phase known as
Suck.
I was terrible at S&T games! Experienced mode was a daunting task. I usually got my mercs shot all to hell, but rarely allowed anyone to die due to harebrained tactical decisions. Almost all the time, when a merc died, I would restart the battle.
I never thought to save frequently during battle - I played the game on Iron Man without knowing it, years before it existed! (edit: Iron man was released with UB 2 years after JA2's release, so this statement is valid). Then one day, I discovered Alt+S by mistake, even as I aged and improved my skills, and proceeded to the next phase known as
1337.
I became one of the many people who state "there's no reason for anyone on your team to ever get shot before you're storming Meduna, no matter what difficulty you play" and I finally realized how they achieved this - constant reloads! So, Alt+S/Alt+L became my drug. Yuck.
Although I never subscribed to those people who say "u don't need more than 50 health cuz u never get shot this game is so easy", and I didn't reload for 5 damange, only when when severe crap happened that would most likely make me unable to win the sector, or put my mercs dangerously close to death.
Finally, I get to the phase where I am now - I'm 'good' at JA2, and Iron Man mode seems like a fun challenge, rather than a massive bother. I have yet to broach the topic of Insane difficulty mode, but Expert + Iron Man is fun and difficult. Dying mercs is...kind of a toss up, isn't it? You might lose a LOT of progress if you reload, but Fox is such a ... fox!
Decisions, decisions.
I think what we can take from this 6+ year old thread is that 1. this game is completely timeless and 2. there's about a million different ways to play and comfort levels for JA2.
One prominent reload I can think of when I was 2/3 the way to Meduna in an Experienced Iron man game where I had resolved not to reload at all, period, NO MATTER WHAT, was when I was conquering the military base you get shipped off to if you get captured and, out of real-time, my level 9, machine of death, super ultra mega IMP falls over as the bloody, spongy matter that once was his head rains down upon his corpse. I screamed, kicked, and cried, then slew the offender to find him using a Gepard M2 with a sniper scope. Then, in frustration...................................I gave in to the temptation.
Oh, Jagged Alliance is a fickle mistress.
I should post this kind of stuff on the combat stories forum....
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Corporal
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204340]
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Thu, 18 December 2008 18:19
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MarkDey |
Messages:2
Registered:December 2008 |
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I'm only getting back into JA2 again now, and this time I'm aiming to play it (with H.A.M.) by only reloading for bugs and crashes. I don't get to play in long stretches though, so I wind up saving a lot. The Drassen counterattack will probably be heartbreaking for me as I've modeled my 6 IMPs after my family. Here's hoping that reinforcements and micromanaging militia to place some on the roofs works well.
Back when I bought the game when it was new, I had a great time by not reloading after I had a FUBAR with the first SAM. I forget who I hired, but had cleared Drassen with my first squad, trained up some militia, found Skyrider, healed up, and then went after the first SAM at night. It went poorly thanks to the roof sniper who killed 2 and wounded 2 before I swarmed and kiled her, but I ultimately took the site with only 2 heavily wounded mercenaries left. At that, I thought to myself, ok - I really need some troops fast, so I hired everyone that M.E.R.C. had available.
Before they arrived, the SAM was counterattacked and although my guys had some time to train militia, they both died. Took out 4 elites though, and the remaining militia managed to kill one and chase off the other. Out of the remaining 4 green militia, 2 were promoted to regular. But I had no mercenaries for the next few hours. And then I saw a squad heading to the airport.
That led to a firefight about 30 minutes after the M.E.R.C. guys arrived, so they at least had some time to grab some better gear from other city sectors and run back to defend the airport. It was then an all M.E.R.C. show for the next few days until I hired another A.I.M. guy, had him come in at Omerta to ask for more help, and was glad to get Dimitri.
Played though to the end and I think it was Haywire or Gasket that killed Diedranna with a LAM in the throne room. Razor got shot by a tank the night before.
Had I reloaded after the SAM debacle, I wouldn't have had such a good time.
-Mark
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Civilian
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204803]
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Wed, 24 December 2008 11:56
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Logisteric |
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Messages:3199
Registered:December 2008 Location: B |
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Therion... I gave them two bursts from XM-8 as a parting gift.
your a little too fast, son.
win a few battles, and your reputation goes up again. you then may hire any AIMmerc. low reputation means 'right now' - and some mercs do have a problem with it on a way lower extend. i do court-martial my team when necessary (unfortunately i can't jail them or cut their wages - so it's always two rounds of .38 glaser) - but buns and grizzly fulfilled their contracts. guess it's okay to shoot them for going awol, but they didn't do that. you are quite simply a murderer - and i hope you have to start a new game now.
no 2
as to your 'superior tactics' - you will run short of hireable personnel way off meduna, (guess you are the reincarnation of one wwI-general like 'hunter-bunter'. he congratulated a fellow-general (who followed h-b's orders) on having 'blooded the pubs'.
[Updated on: Wed, 24 December 2008 12:05] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Captain
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204815]
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Wed, 24 December 2008 15:33
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Therion |
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Messages:29
Registered:December 2008 |
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LogistericTherion... I gave them two bursts from XM-8 as a parting gift.
your a little too fast, son.
win a few battles, and your reputation goes up again. you then may hire any AIMmerc. low reputation means 'right now' - and some mercs do have a problem with it on a way lower extend.
Yeah, but reputation of AIM was very low at the moment (i.e. I didn't know that they would change their mid later).
Logisterici do court-martial my team when necessary (unfortunately i can't jail them or cut their wages - so it's always two rounds of .38 glaser) - but buns and grizzly fulfilled their contracts. guess it's okay to shoot them for going awol, but they didn't do that. you are quite simply a murderer - and i hope you have to start a new game now.
My character - Anna "Raven" Kruk
[Updated on: Wed, 24 December 2008 15:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204819]
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Wed, 24 December 2008 15:58
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incognito253 |
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Messages:53
Registered:December 2008 Location: Ohio, USA |
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Maybe Hunter-Bunter took a futuristic XM-8 automatic weapon and gunned down his own men for their daring to think of their own survival.
My main character, Alison "Justice" Pearson, is a mercenary and takes exception to your Raven's anti-capital sentiments. He is also a man, despite the name, and will destroy your character's poorly executed ideal of social equality with Star Wars lasers. I.E., he will spend his blood money on meaningless gun upgrades and semi-useful ballistics research until she bankrupts herself.
Any plan good enough for Reagan is good enough for a bloodthirsty, mentally unstable mercenary.
So have you ever hired Raven, the clearly American mercenary, from A.I.M.?
Or would that cause a capital communist chick conflict? mmm....consonance.
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Corporal
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Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204828]
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Wed, 24 December 2008 17:49
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Therion |
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Messages:29
Registered:December 2008 |
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LogistericTherion ... Basing on what? ...
casulties!
loosing 3 out of 6 mercs = 50% for a single objective (drassen). h-b did the same at the second battle of krithia (6.-8.5.1915), but he lost 50% (33% shot dead) of 156th brigade of the 52nd division (sorry Lokie) in three consecutive full frontal assaults. thus he earned himself the nickname 'the butcher of helles'. he later was transferred to france, where he gave further help to the german war efforts.
Now, let's point out some differences:
None of the Battles of Krithia were succesful - each one ended with slaughter of Allied forces.
One the other hand, I won every battle when fighting for Omerta, on the route to Drassen and in Drassen. Your comparison would be correct if I'd lose every battle.
During the Battles of Krithia the allied forces suffered roughly the same number of casualties as the Turks - 1:1 - my team suffered only 3 dead per 45 enemies personally killed by my mercs - that's 1:15. And the enemies actually were able to shoot - from what I've noticed they didn't have much problems with scoring hits from the edge of visual range. That's how Ice died - he was crouching on a roof, providing fire support with his Minimi, when suddenly three guys came out from behind a building on the edge of visual range and started shooting at him, scoring a few hits too much and too fast (I guess it's because M1 Garand has range twice as long as visual?).
Your comparison would be valid if in every battle I would kill only 1-2 enemies and withdraw while losing the same number of mercs.
Also, all my mercs were provided with a proper supplies and medical aid.
So, your comparison is completely wrong.
Logistericthis is superior tactics.
I meant superior to the enemy tactics :blah: . My mercs got 1:15 casualties against equal enemies, while my enemies have 15:1 and my fresh militia in that Drassen mine defence battle got 1:1 or even 2:1.
Logistericshooting 66% of the survivors does shurely not raise your reputation as an employer of mercenaries. i hoped that there is a deadline with aim (comparable to the one of m*e*r*c, when you simply can't hire anyone any longer - due to not paid bills).
Well, frankly, if my character would be a mercenary, she probably wouldn't join some random guy without money to pay for her services.
BuzzsawMy main character, Alison "Justice" Pearson, is a mercenary and takes exception to your Raven's anti-capital sentiments. He is also a man, despite the name, and will destroy your character's poorly executed ideal of social equality with Star Wars lasers. I.E., he will spend his blood money on meaningless gun upgrades and semi-useful ballistics research until she bankrupts herself.
Sorry, I don't roleplay outside of games.
[Updated on: Wed, 24 December 2008 18:15] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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