Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance 2 » The A.I.M. Library » Do you allow casualties?
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204829] Wed, 24 December 2008 18:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3498
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
Therion
During the Battles of Krithia the allied forces suffered roughly the same number of casualties as the Turks - 1:1 - my team suffered only 3 dead per 45 enemies personally killed by my mercs - that's 1:15.


that is true, BUT

the turkish troops at Krithia were not supposed to be mincemeat - the AI is not and never was a match for a human player. as an example d's forces are calculated (by the AI) one by one, that means:

1. they do not have a plan at all
2. there is no fire-support or cover
3. your mercs fight (even with poor planning of their co) as a unit

=> h-b (his real name is lieutenant general sir aylmer gould hunter-weston kcb dsp gstj - sorry lokie, he's a scot) would have rooted an enemy like yours with his first full frontal attack.

a few questions:

a) do you really belief fighting in arulco has anything to do with a real war?
b) what do you belief even the dumpest squad-leader in omerta would affect to your landing party (given a non-scheduled helicopter from across the border tries to fly into a battle-zone, without any airforce or artillery support)?
c) what happens if some-real-life deidrana insists on having your party stopped at drassen.

for c: think about the slogan. visit arulco the country with two cities constructed of rubble-stone, entirely.

drassen (without the counterattack) is considered your 2nd city - you should win that quite easily. 'cause otherwise you might delete JA2 from your harddrive and never ever buy a game made by sirtech.

got it now?

[Updated on: Wed, 24 December 2008 18:39] by Moderator

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204831] Wed, 24 December 2008 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Therion

 
Messages:29
Registered:December 2008
Logisteric
as an example d's forces are calculated (by the AI) one by one, that means:

1. they do not have a plan at all
2. there is no fire-support or cover
3. your mercs fight (even with poor planning of their co) as a unit

They don't have to have a plan or fight like an unit - they just need to be enough of them in one place to concentrate their firepower - random placement of 7 of them on a small area (let's say, half of a screen) is enough, at least until the I got a decent sniper rifle - for some weird reason my character's XM-8 DRM was the most inaccurate weapon in the team.

Logisteric
a) do you really belief fighting in arulco has anything to do with a real war?

I already said that no. No one sane sends a single squad to an enemy territory with intention of capturing a town.

Logisteric
b) what do you belief even the dumpest squad-leader in omerta would affect to your landing party (given a non-scheduled helicopter from across the border tries to fly into a battle-zone, without any airforce or artillery support)?

I suspect that it would involve an RPG and burning fragments of the helicopter falling to the ground?

Logisteric
c) what happens if some-real-life deidrana insists on having your party stopped at drassen.

for c: think about the slogan. visit arulco the country with two cities constructed of rubble-stone, entirely.

Hmm...
It sounds, like "I'm not taking this job.".

Logisteric
drassen (without the counterattack) is considered your 2nd city - you should win that quite easily. 'cause otherwise you might delete JA2 from your harddrive and never ever buy a game made by sirtech.

I won that quite easily. I have enough militia to stop further counterattacks and I took out the first SAM site without any losses - the only my soldier that actually got hit was Raven, who lost 1/2 of her HP to a magical Garand shot from the edge of visual range (that would be 300m IRL?).

Logisteric
got it now?

Yeah, whatever.
So, how would you capture Drassen and defend without anyone getting killed? Remember that an average enemy squad has in 9/10 Garands/M-14s and in 1/10 M1919A6s.

[Updated on: Wed, 24 December 2008 19:59] by Moderator

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204833] Wed, 24 December 2008 20:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3498
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
Therion
So, how would you capture Drassen and defend without anyone getting killed? Remember that an average enemy squad has in 9/10 Garands/M-14s and in 1/10 M1919A6s.


your imp's xm-8 and the costs for your team drive you to take the airport and the mine fast (ammo+money). not to take the centre would be some kind of a cheat, 'cause according to the game plan you do not know about the counter-attack. you should think about having gumby and biff in your squad - to get shot, that does not affect aim-members as long as they are not in the same squad (at least i think it is so).

i don't twist xmls - don't know how to do it. the first garand and m1919a6 i saw were in the counter-attack. as i try drop-all-no-lmb-selling with many mercs (6imps) i roam the countryside for some time (invated drassen on day 100 or so) to get my squad outfitted. to earn money i sell the loot to tony, do the fights and quests and a little regime-change in san mona. so i went into drassen with three squads of 5 (2imps+3m*e*r*c*s each). just swept through and fought the ca-baddies off. train militia and order any toolbox you can get after that. never hire someone from aim before drassen is secured - they are too expensive (steroid for one day/toolbox and fox for one day/medical equipment). razor and haywire are quite useable with thompson 1928s and tons of ammo. never heal your team - medical equipment is rare - use that time to train them in marksmanship. if you are going do have a low-cost revolution act accordingly.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204844] Thu, 25 December 2008 02:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Therion

 
Messages:29
Registered:December 2008
Logisteric
your imp's xm-8 and the costs for your team drive you to take the airport and the mine fast (ammo+money).

Well, I decreased the prices for weapons and ammo (I based weapons costs on Paul Mulcahy

[Updated on: Thu, 25 December 2008 03:23] by Moderator

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204855] Thu, 25 December 2008 06:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow86

 
Messages:15
Registered:December 2008
Location: Argentina
I've killed more men on Novice than just three poorly trained infantry companies, and a fair number of the Queen's elite. Two divisions (as mentioned in the recon report) would probably be too much, but they could also be divisions just in name, to sound more intimidating.

Also, don't be so quick to dismiss Her Majesty's tanks. :wrysmiley:
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204897] Thu, 25 December 2008 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Therion

 
Messages:29
Registered:December 2008
By "damaged", I mean "being repaired and not being available for the Drassen counterattck" Razz .

Shadow86
I've killed more men on Novice than just three poorly trained infantry companies, and a fair number of the Queen's elite. Two divisions (as mentioned in the recon report) would probably be too much, but they could also be divisions just in name, to sound more intimidating.

I think that a recon report should be precise enough to say that there aren't real divisions.
As for the amount of troops - I meant mostly for the purposes of making the story more believable - with such big numbers of troops as in normal game, they could simply send a whole battalion on Drassen and kill every rebel and mercenary.

[Updated on: Thu, 25 December 2008 18:43] by Moderator

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204956] Fri, 26 December 2008 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00

 
Messages:1120
Registered:September 2006
Location: Czech Republic

my merc have main weapon+backup weapon:rpk or rpd+2x ammo drums+backup colt 1911A1 high capacity+8xammo clip,or ultimax+2x ammo c-mag's & sawed off shogun in backup role+8x shotgun shells 2X
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #204967] Sat, 27 December 2008 04:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
incognito253

 
Messages:53
Registered:December 2008
Location: Ohio, USA

wolf00
my merc have main weapon+backup weapon:rpk or rpd+2x ammo drums+backup colt 1911A1 high capacity+8xammo clip,or ultimax+2x ammo c-mag's & sawed off shogun in backup role+8x shotgun shells 2X


*reads topic title*
*reads reply post*
*reads topic title*
*reads reply post*
*reads topic title*
*reads reply post*

*goes to bed*
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #205022] Sat, 27 December 2008 22:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wolf00

 
Messages:1120
Registered:September 2006
Location: Czech Republic

in my is no casualties,if someone from my squad die in action i reload last quicksave... way to win is good balance[guns & armor]
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #205184] Tue, 30 December 2008 16:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:117
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
Last night, I lost an IMP and Spider in a Tixa nighttime assault. After some smooth sailing, shit suddenly hit the fan and I could only manage to stand my ground due to Headrock's new suppression formula. On the other hand, my two mercs died due to suppression fire... Well, one thing's for sure, after someone has died the battle really starts to get emotional, and my psycho IMP refused to fire single shots for the rest of the fight.
He then put hollow points in Brewster and his offsprings after battle while Raven and Static mourned Spider's death. I'm still thinking of redoing that one but then I wanted to play that game with casualties. Still, a beloved IMP is dead, two other mercs are wounded and I haven't even visited the basement yet. Maybe I'll flip a coin.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #205233] Wed, 31 December 2008 00:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro

 
Messages:178
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Generally when somebody from my team dies I load the previous saved game.

But surely I wanna try out the iron man mode and then probably getting somebody killed won't be that big of an issue.but as a whole, any loss in manpower is no good for the player's future, so I try to avoid it at all costs.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #205754] Wed, 07 January 2009 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K33N

 
Messages:24
Registered:January 2009
Location: Sweden
There are acceptable casualties if you gain is bigger then the loss. However such a scenario is not often found because the flexibility of the game, you could always perfect every move you make through suppression or flanking etc.

I chose to save before and not inside a battle for reality purposes, i think saving inside is cheating but that's only my personal opinion. You could always do better Wink

Peace!
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #205756] Wed, 07 January 2009 16:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates

 
Messages:1030
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
Goddamit Musky; just let fate take them! It really changes the way you play, who you hire or end up being forced to hire, allowing deaths is replay-tastik so there. That said my was Imp killed by the last hostile shot fired (Queen) in a game I completed a few days ago. That was not very nice, not very nice at all, precious.

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #205765] Wed, 07 January 2009 17:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
K33N

 
Messages:24
Registered:January 2009
Location: Sweden
Hehe yeah i agree, i must have the perfect team and the perfect strategy for every sector to make it out there alive, but winning a battle makes it much more rewarding. Wink
It also makes the game much more complex and replayable.

Peace to you.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #210915] Mon, 23 March 2009 19:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
I think any merc who gets shot was a waste of pay.

If too many of my buddies are on that kia-list I may withdraw from Arulco and start a new game.

I did shoot Buns again and again (after her wedding)

Under normal circumstances certain mercs are only hired too be shot.
Shadow - Reaper - Shadow - Gus - Shadow - Wolf - Shadow - Danny - Sha...

Recendly I found out that Joey is for hire after his quest.
He still is "escorted" and may not carry gun or armour.
He can't be move without an escorting merc too.
But he may subervise the defending milita. Due to his lag of equipment he always gets shot.
(With manymercs I should detach Larry and Joey to the whorehouse and carry any drop of booth to the sector)

[Updated on: Mon, 23 March 2009 21:09] by Moderator

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219547] Sat, 06 June 2009 15:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
coffeecommander

 
Messages:88
Registered:June 2009
Location: Europe, and pitying you.

Nah, never. I only recruit mercs I actually like (The rest stays behind to fix equipment, train militias, receive Bobby Ray's shippings and provide forward bases), so I really don't want my deary buddies to go face down breathlessly.

Since I only ever play Iron Man (Because otherwise I instinctively turn into a load/save whore) I always equip my mercs with the very best in body armor, always have them carry at least one first aid kid (or med kit for those with appropriately high medical skills), and always move and fight in a fashion that provides the highest possible odds of survival for my whole group.

Of course, for someone like me who usually solos the game and only gets backup when he feels lonely, the point is moot most of the time.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219550] Sat, 06 June 2009 15:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3498
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
you misunderstood this thread. if i read your answer correctly you are saying: 'i do allow casualties but i'm to good to have them happen'. not to allow casualties means st. quicksavius rulez.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219584] Sat, 06 June 2009 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gmonk

 
Messages:646
Registered:April 2002
Location: Newfoundland, Canada
*gigglesnort*
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219623] Sat, 06 June 2009 22:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
swampgator

 
Messages:96
Registered:May 2009
I used to not even let my mercs get hurt. But these forums have challenged me to try a more realistic approach. But I still can't seem to let my mercs die....it feels like I am letting them down in some way. I let Gasket go POW playing DL and then i get to where he was being held and the enemy instantly killed him, so i went the whole time not having that 17th merc (or however many you can have) for no reason. Someone mentioned more mercs in this thread - some kind of mod or w/e - does that let you have more that the normal 17 or w/e mercs hired? I'd like to be able to hire more merceneries so i can have at least three full squads going at one time.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219626] Sat, 06 June 2009 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
32 mercs to get shot
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219627] Sat, 06 June 2009 22:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3498
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
32 and it's in the trunk :wave:
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219683] Sun, 07 June 2009 05:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
systemfehler

 
Messages:117
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany
Swampgator
But I still can't seem to let my mercs die....it feels like I am letting them down in some way.


I've noticed that I've become indifferent once I began letting mercs die. It's not like I risk their life more than I did before, but when somebody dies, I often shrug and think about a replacement (and the insurance claim of course).
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #219780] Sun, 07 June 2009 20:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Watchman

 
Messages:103
Registered:August 2008
Location: Philippines
I allow wounded casualties, even the ones where they lose a certain amount from a stat (those times suck) but I usually don't allow deaths.

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220003] Mon, 08 June 2009 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor

 
Messages:430
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
I always allow casualties, but only those who have died under my controll (not those killed in action elsewhere)... The only time I saved/loaded because a merc had died was with the demo (back in 1998?).

Usually I play until the end.. i.e. until all mercs are dead and I don't have any money anymore....
Or until a new SVN update has come out or I change some of the configs. I really like the beginning of the game, so no problem there...

I think it adds to the tension to move along with less/wounded mercs... I usually play on experienced or expert... Not on insane as I often don't allow myself any starting gear at all and usually start with just one or two mercs Smile On insane one of them at least is most often already dead before landed....

I do replace my IMP when he dies... penalty then would be $3000 and back to starting level 1...




[Updated on: Mon, 08 June 2009 20:02] by Moderator

Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220004] Mon, 08 June 2009 20:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
the real penalty is that the replaced IMP is not in kia list/the stats if the same voice is used
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220005] Mon, 08 June 2009 20:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor

 
Messages:430
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
Ha, that's possible, but I don't care about that very much Wink He's still there, just a bit handicapped Smile
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220006] Mon, 08 June 2009 20:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
I tried to use ab all faces and got mad when I noticed it.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220010] Mon, 08 June 2009 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Once ManyMercs kicked in, I did part of a campaign where I let people die. However, that's because I also tweaked the settings to give myself more income, hired a ton of mercs, and could naturally afford more if required. This was a HAM game on Insane, so battles involved lots of lead, but HAM generally means that if you're not tactically inept you can keep mostly keep mercs from dying (though they do get severely injured). I lost Barry on the second battle, at sector B11 (we're talking 20 odd mercs participating!). Then I lost Vicki in a botched night raid on the Drassen SAM. I only played that game until Alma (2nd city), which I survived quite well, but I probably would've lost a couple more people trying to get some militia to defend it.

I must say that letting them get killed is... well it's hard for me, it's the first time I've tolerated it, and I would've really had a hard time stopping myself from loading a save if some of them died. I definitely wouldn't play on without Ivan, anyway. I don't know how some people here do it. Don't you have a heart?!

But it does add a lot of suspense to the action - not knowing who's going to go next. Very Happy


Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220013] Mon, 08 June 2009 20:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
It is easier to stand after the first time you lost loose 3 merc in an attempt to rescue annother merc.

In the end I had lost 5/6.

It is much more daring to led 'em die. You will get carefuller and You plunders are punished.

And after all it is their profession.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #220017] Mon, 08 June 2009 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
I'm already about as careful as I can get and still love the game, so I'll probably stay where I am. Smile I get too attached to my mercs, and losing 5/6 people means, to me, that my revolution has failed. Again, now that I'm playing with almost 30 people, I'm willing to let more casualties slide. It's fun so far, but I would have real trouble losing some of them. I'm not good enough of a player to survive properly, especially with HAM making battles so much more chaotic than they used to be. Fortunately, with HAM, I only lose someone when I've made a tactical error, there's no "one bad step and you're done" scenarios, you can usually survive combat (with lots of injuries) if your overall plan unfolds correctly (or if you know when to fall back...).


Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251083] Fri, 07 May 2010 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HOLIBERT
Messages:6
Registered:May 2010
Location: BELGIUM
Well, I don't play in Ironman mode because of some bugs that oblige you to restart the sector from the begining. But I like to play in a realistic way. Damned war is awful...hopefully. So I accept casualties, even if sometimes I'm very sad to loose a High level mercs I've taken care from his youngest age. But it is the only way to really feel an emotion while playing JA.

Hum hum ! I must also say that sometimes it's too hard and I reload but if I do it too much, my game loose its interest and I restart the entire game from the begining.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251097] Fri, 07 May 2010 20:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2245
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
Has anyone played an insane game and allowed casualties on all levels? IF so how far did you make it?
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251102] Fri, 07 May 2010 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
usrbid

 
Messages:1580
Registered:December 2008
I play on Insane Iron Man all the time, it is actually not that hard, just time consuming, more mercs make it easier.

Simple example is securing a building, you approach one of the walls, need one merc looking down each side, one in front of the entrance, and at least one on the roof (better two). This way you run out of mercs quickly, for example need more mercs to go into the building.

The most dangerous situations are when an enemy is placed on the map and not allowed to move. This happens for example in Alma quite a bit. I lost Ice and Grunty when clearing the building to the right in the sector where the weapons depot is. It feels like there is no way to see those enemies without them interrupting you due to angle, visibility etc.

You can make it all the way to Meduna and lose only a few guys really depending on how patient you are. I remember Grizzly stepping on a mine in the Meduna airport sector, damaging all his gear including attachments, just takes time to repair it again. It is more tedius than it is difficult.


Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251244] Sun, 09 May 2010 19:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
WillyWonka

 
Messages:124
Registered:February 2006
Location: Sweden/Sverige
Dieter
I play on Insane Iron Man all the time, it is actually not that hard, just time consuming,...//...It is more tedius than it is difficult.


I agree, even though I don
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251257] Sun, 09 May 2010 23:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tao

 
Messages:2245
Registered:August 2009
Location: The Known Universe
@Willy Wonka

That is a new/fresh idea.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251258] Sun, 09 May 2010 23:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1795
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
I like it too, although personally I can hold myself when it comes to saving and loading. I save all the time, but I only load if something goes horribly wrong or the game crashes.


Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251259] Mon, 10 May 2010 00:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1568
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
I have to save continiously due to toooo many crashes
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #251339] Mon, 10 May 2010 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HOLIBERT
Messages:6
Registered:May 2010
Location: BELGIUM
Dieter

The most dangerous situations are when an enemy is placed on the map and not allowed to move. This happens for example in Alma quite a bit. I lost Ice and Grunty when clearing the building to the right in the sector where the weapons depot is. It feels like there is no way to see those enemies without them interrupting you due to angle, visibility etc.


Of course If you play often you know where they stay and you can blow them up or throw a grenade before running to them.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #255367] Sat, 03 July 2010 09:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carpenter

 
Messages:10
Registered:July 2010
It depends on how the merc died.. If they get whittled down over the course of a battle and finally keel over, then I (usually) let it go and accept it. But if its "Merc steps around corner, eats assault rifle burst and dies" then I reload. Something just feels inherently cheap about having one of your mercs get wasted like that, and I enjoy being able to correct that situation when it happens.
Re: Do you allow casualties?[message #255715] Thu, 08 July 2010 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
ghdfans2010
Messages:1
Registered:July 2010
Location: VA
Since I have the option I dont accept casualties,
http://www.cheap-ghd.org/images/funny/GHD_Hair_Straighteners_107.jpg
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