Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Beginning strategy
| Beginning strategy[message #361903]
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Sat, 21 November 2020 23:59 
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 blaa |
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Messages:26
Registered:May 2009
Location: - |
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I downloaded the stable version and it comes with both Drassen CA and aggressive strategic AI enabled. So massive counterattacks on every city + offensives. Max militia per sector is 20. Experienced diff means starting the game with 35k.
I figure some thought has been put into the default options of this mod and there must be a way to actually get into the game, earn enough money for a good team and decent weapons, but frankly I don´t see it. I am by no means a JA2 noob so I don´t need help with the tactical layer. But I just don´t see what to do on a strategic level with so little money and so many enemies.
What I do not want to have to do is:
- Save scum every battle 50 times till the outcome is right.
- Cheese the AI by sitting in rooms with only one entrance for entire battles.
- Avoid taking any town whole so I don´t trigger the CA. That, again, is pure cheese.
Honestly is it even possible to get into the game with the default settings without cheesing the CRAP out of it? If so, can someone point me towards a rough guideline on the strategic level? Everything I see people mention is cheese  like: Sit in the shack in Drassen mine that has only one entrance and let them come through the door one by one. Don´t take any city whole to avoid counterattacks. But surely the default settings can´t be balanced around such strategies?!
[Updated on: Sun, 22 November 2020 00:01] Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361904 is a reply to message #361903]
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Sun, 22 November 2020 04:39 
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| LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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Well, for starters, your assumptions are faulty 
1.13 is not some large, commercial, organized product, it's a volunteer project. Meaning, people who do work on it(coding, modding, whatever), work on things that interest them, and then there is no boss who will force them to work on boring parts like documentation, some serious levels of testing or, yes, balancing. The game is more than 20 years old, nobody is marketing it to new players or anything, and I believe it's not unreasonable to expect the players to do some amount of customizing things to their liking, especially considering the sheer scope of options the 1.13 has at this point.
So, yes, solution numero uno would be just to do some editing. Remove counterattacks, or make them smaller, or give yourself more starting money, start with couple of IMPs, whatever floats your boat... that is both the beauty and a downside of something that is as customizible as 1.13 - you can customize anything, but that creates a situation where it's impossible to create some sane default for everyone.
But ok, let's say you believe that God created the default settings with some sense, and you want to play that way. Cool. You still have options, even if you want to avoid cheesy ones (and I understand that completely, if you're gonna do DCA by sitting in the bar for 8000 turns, abusing AI, why not just CTRL+O them, what's the fucking difference ).
Solution 2 would be to find acceptable level of cheese/metagaming. For example, if I were to start the new game now, I'd go San Mona first, with a decent starting team. Between getting deed to Kyle, boxing and "borrowing" money from Kingpin, you have enough to keep that team for 2 weeks, which should be enough to clean up your first mine. After that I'd take Chitzena mine, train 20 blue militia. Take northern Chitzena sector, and move everything there, but leave the mine sector empty. Let them take it, clean up the counterattack groups one by one and then retake the mine. It would probably take a week, but after that you have a small source of income, and it gets easier. That is obviously pretty metagamey, but for myself, it's acceptable.
If any kind of metagaming is out of the question, and you really just want to go straight to Drassen, I'd say you again have 2 options. Of course, both will require you to actually be pretty good at the game.
So, solution no 3, avoid the counterattack, guerrilla way. You are the guerrilla at this point, it's perfectly reasonable to avoid large battles. Let them take the mine and then retake it when they disperse. Or ambush them before they can attack Drassen. South of Drassen is a river sector where they either have to cross the bridge or swim across the river, so it is pretty good place for a smaller force to channel a larger one into a chokepoint. If things start going wrong, retreat. And so on. If you can't stop them, whittle them down to more manageable size. Improvise. Adapt. Overcome
That leaves the last option, which is of course, fight the Drassen counterattack like a man, mano a mano it is hard, but doable. Fill both sectors of Drassen with militia before taking the mine, so you have 40 blue militia to help you with the counterattack. If you're playing on Experienced, default counterattack would traditionally be around 60 guys, and militia can hold their own decently enough. At expert, it's around 80, and at that level (and with more elites on expert), militia is going to have some problems.
Usually, I'd concentrate at the east side, around bar, and fight there, relying on militia to hold them from the west side (and a decent chunk of south will gravitate towards there). On expert, that side will not hold, so you are on a timer before they collapse on you from all sides and things get dicey. On experienced, depending on militia coming from the north, they might hold, or they might collapse, but they will usually buy enough time.
Between tshirts from the factory and two bars in Drassen, you have enough materials to make a decent stash of Molotovs. Use them. Get couple of cheap MERC guys that noone cares if they die, load them with Molotovs and put them on roofs (bar and a building south of it). It's a risky position, as once they show themselves, the enemies will sometimes climb the roof and swarm them. But from there, they can throw Molotovs down, both to close the ways for enemies and funnel them, and to punish them for grouping, once they are forced into the remaining corridors. Don't advance too aggressively until the victory is oretty much a sure thing, you want to stay relatively close to the northern edge, so you can retreat if things go wrong. If it comes to that, back to guerrilla way. What kind of war would it be, if you never lost any battles
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361906 is a reply to message #361904]
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Sun, 22 November 2020 07:24
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| blaa |
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Messages:26
Registered:May 2009
Location: - |
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It´s still pretty harsh to ship the stable build with such smack-in-your-face difficulty even if we leave god out of it. I knew what I was getting into cause I always read the ini, but if someone starts playing the mod without reading the ini they will lose 100% after taking the first town. Drassen CA is a meme by now, but CAs on the other cities not so much. Anyways, appreciate your input- I´m no fan of the San Mona route at game start, but I will try the Drassen approach I think. Maybe combine training militias in two sectors with the guerilla approach. Letting them take the mine while retreating, then wiggle them down with militia in the next sector, retreat again etc like you mentioned. And I had completely forgot you can even make Molotovs, that should help indeed. I´m curious now if I can pull it off. And losing battles is fine- but at the beginning, the resources are too tight to recover with those settings. You neither have the money to replace losses nor the time to heal up again.
And yeah, I´ve also modded the hell out of the ini by now, even though I want to give it one more try with the default settings.
You mentioned reducing the size of Cas, what setting in the ini is used for that? I can´t find it.
[Updated on: Sun, 22 November 2020 07:25] Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361908 is a reply to message #361906]
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Sun, 22 November 2020 08:55
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| Kitty |
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Messages:438
Registered:October 2017
Location: Germany |
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You may could:
- use a merc with radio operator trait and call a artillery strike from militia in neighbouring sector. Pro: Kill and injure a lot of enemies at once Contra: Careful where to aim, you don't want to kill the miner. If civilians are killed, loyality will drop and some mercs may get pissed.
- use a spy to wander arround and locate enemies. Pro: see enemies, if lucky enough kill some with spy Contra: Keeping the distance to avoid that enemies see through spy can be tricky
- deploy mobile militia to sectors enemies will have to move through Pro: should at least lower enemy numbers Contra: will cost money, militia probably will end up dead
- use Zombie-mode Pro: Zombies will also attack enemies, since they are closer to each other, chances are higher enemy-zombie will attack enemy Contra: You have to deal with huge number of zombies, and they will also attack civilians - protect the miner
- use fortifications Pro: better cover for you Contra: enemy can use them as well, it's time consuming to build
- if available (Devin or BR) use traps like landmines, tripwire or beartrap Pro: will slow down enemy and give away enemy position Contra: you need access to landmines, etc. and the money to afford them
- spy, radio operator plus, if needed, one support can be pretty good for guerilla tactics (maybe combined with militia and/or artillery-strikes)
- use Heli for guerilla tactics Pro: land in good positions (mercs will rope down were you decide, even roofs) Contra: that requires ini-setting for landing in hot zone, Sam-site needs to be conquered before, Heli might get damaged or even destroyed
- use vehicle Pro: drive over enemies Contra: high chance you loose vehicle when enemy numbers are to high and/or equiped to good
And probably a lot of other ways I missed. Depends on playstyle and personal preferences
How to get: latest 1.13, 7609 and more | 7609 SCI (eng) | Compiling+SVN
I need more details. (Didi Hallervorden) Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361911 is a reply to message #361906]
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Sun, 22 November 2020 15:39
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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blaa wrote on Sun, 22 November 2020 06:24It´s still pretty harsh to ship the stable build with such smack-in-your-face difficulty
JA2-1.13 is not your standard ready-made install-and-play game (anymore), it's a game kit. You can dial/shape it into whatever you know you would enjoy.
I for example like huge, dangerous battles, but hate the classic JA start situation where you're snapping rubber bands at each other for hours on end. So I upgrade both sides to start with decent weapons (rifles). That's the way I like it. I'm not playing to prove anything, just to have fun.
My point is, don't complain it doesn't suit you, make it suit you. As I said, JA2-1.13 is not a ready-to-play game anymore.
blaa wrote on Sun, 22 November 2020 06:24at the beginning, the resources are too tight
Well, it's up to you to set them to an amount you'd still consider challenging, but not frustrating. 
(BTW, me too I don't capture the last Drassen sector before having filled the other two with militia. It's clearly the sensible thing to do, and has nothing to do with dairy products, it's simply strategy...)
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361916 is a reply to message #361915]
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Sun, 22 November 2020 23:31
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| LatZee |
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Messages:185
Registered:December 2015 |
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blaa wrote on Sun, 22 November 2020 21:45
Weird, stable has no such file.
Eh, my bad, forgot that we're talking about 7609 version, difficulty settings were split off later, and counterattack size option added quite a bit later than that. So if you plan on staying with "stable" 7609, no such option. 7609 is pretty old and outdated at this point, though, so unless you have a reason to use it (for example some mod that only works with it, or using Seven's improved AI version), might want to think about switching to something more current.
As an explanation, the "stable" version is not something particularly stable in the "no bugs, it just works" meaning. In fact, it's pretty full of bugs that have been fixed later (and you can get the version with most of the later bugfixes from Seven, the +FIX version). It is stable more in a meaning of being a stable, unchanging modding platform. So if you want to make a mod, but don't want to keep up with new stuff being added, you can make it for 7609. It is also the last stable release unless plans change, as the guys abandoned the idea of making any more. The "unstable" releases are considered the default version now, and they are at 8900+ version number, so a metric shitton of new stuff, fixed stuff and so on.
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361917 is a reply to message #361916]
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Sun, 22 November 2020 23:45
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| blaa |
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Messages:26
Registered:May 2009
Location: - |
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Hmm yeah I do use sevenfm´s AI version. And since I just finished setting everything up I will use it for now, but I´ll switch over some time. Or just make another install. Thanks for the advice!
[Updated on: Sun, 22 November 2020 23:47] Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #361941 is a reply to message #361917]
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Thu, 26 November 2020 12:07
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| kiwiphoenix |
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Messages:3
Registered:November 2020 |
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Have you already found the Sandbags and Concertina Tileset Expansion?
It's currently at the top of the v1.13 Modding, Customisation, and Editing board.
It adds a few lines to MOST tileset definitions in Ja2Set.dat.xml, in your Data-1.13 folder.
This inserts the sandbag and wire tiles to all the sectors you probably want to fortify.
I haven't tried it in 7609, but the file looks the same as 8796 so I don't see why it wouldn't work.
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Civilian
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #362136 is a reply to message #362132]
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Tue, 29 December 2020 17:37
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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jgaleazz wrote on Mon, 28 December 2020 19:29Is this cheesy/gaming?
Since this isn't a competition and you harm nobody, that question is totally irrelevant, nonsensical even.
"Cheating" only exists (and is indeed bad) when it harms other people. In a solo game it can't possibly exist, it's more like setting the thermostat because you're too hot or cold.
If you feel like tearing through Arulko at the head of an invincible army, by all means do it!
If you feel you should humbly start with nothing and slowly, painfully work your way through every map, by all means do it!
Just don't start trying to judge your choices, because the only goal here is to have fun, period. Torturing oneself "would Jesus do it" is besides the point and rather silly, isn't it.
Rather ask yourself "what would I enjoy"?
And if that setting spoils the fun for you (the only danger), just dial it back, till you find the sweet spot between frustration and boredom. That spot is different for every player, so the only person who can decide where it lies is you.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #362180 is a reply to message #362136]
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Mon, 04 January 2021 18:12
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| jgaleazz |
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Messages:8
Registered:October 2008 |
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Kurt wrote on Tue, 29 December 2020 17:37jgaleazz wrote on Mon, 28 December 2020 19:29Is this cheesy/gaming?
Since this isn't a competition and you harm nobody, that question is totally irrelevant, nonsensical even.
"Cheating" only exists (and is indeed bad) when it harms other people. In a solo game it can't possibly exist, it's more like setting the thermostat because you're too hot or cold.
If you feel like tearing through Arulko at the head of an invincible army, by all means do it!
If you feel you should humbly start with nothing and slowly, painfully work your way through every map, by all means do it!
Just don't start trying to judge your choices, because the only goal here is to have fun, period. Torturing oneself "would Jesus do it" is besides the point and rather silly, isn't it.
Rather ask yourself "what would I enjoy"?
And if that setting spoils the fun for you (the only danger), just dial it back, till you find the sweet spot between frustration and boredom. That spot is different for every player, so the only person who can decide where it lies is you.
I think you kind of missed my point. I'm saying the same thing you are, it's a single player game if the base game (as currently exists with the 1.13 mod) is too difficult/frustrating than YOU have the power to change the settings through the ini to make it challenging enough for yourself.
For example:
- I don't even touch the disease/food/zombie aspect of the game, just not something I'm interested in dealing with
- I turn off the Drassen counter attack
- I increase the starting funds slightly because between the IMP item selection raising the cost of my IMP (and I don't even give my IMP that great of gear) and the merc load out raising slightly the cost of hiring mercs I just feel that there should be some balance back in terms of starting cash so that I can bring my preferred team to the field
- I adjust the minimum LDR for training militia to allow IRA to be a trainer right off the bat, mind you the variable number of militia trained based on LDR still results in me using a high LDR merc to train the Drassen militia until Ira trains her LDR up
- Though I do prefer the 1.13 mod overall due the revised LBE system, and adjusted gun accuracy and AI.
And you are right it is my game and I play it this way because I want to, ain't nobody gonna tell me I'm doing it wrong. But... if you had read the OP's post he specifically mentioned how to deal with the Drassen CA without holing up in a building and pinging guys off at the door, honestly if it caused the OP that much grief than turn the CA off...
[Updated on: Mon, 04 January 2021 18:15] Report message to a moderator
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Private
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #363560 is a reply to message #362630]
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Tue, 03 August 2021 01:37
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| harveson |
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Messages:33
Registered:August 2015
Location: Minnesota |
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MINES, that is, the holes with silver (gold?):
I'm stuck with the MASSIVE Counter Attacks, and found the setting for that reduction.
BUT ...
I've taken Alma, after first getting Drassen, Cambria, and recently taken Chitzena.
Counting: Drassen (1), Cambria (2), Alma (3) and Chitzena (4);
by my count there's only one other mine - Grumm.
If I have four out of five mines, where does the Queen get her money?
Does the game have her (behind the scenes and the coding) "pile up silver bars" and she can self-fund indefinitely?
The constant counter-attacks reduce the loyalty/sentiment in the Alma and Cambria mines, but she still only has Grumm.
Does she have a Silver-Platinum-Arulco-EXPRESS credit card?
Murphy was an optimistReport message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Beginning strategy[message #364165 is a reply to message #363589]
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Thu, 13 January 2022 19:44
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| Warp_2568 |
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Messages:13
Registered:January 2022 |
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Without cheesing, the way I do it is:
- Make radio operator IMP (as mechanic or spotter)
- Make several Sniper IMPs
- Make sure the Sniper IMPs start with Calico 900 guns and match ammunition
- Make Heavy Weapon IMP and hire Grizzly (for HtH also). You will need to use lots of launchers and mortars for every counterattack.
- Hire Flo. Yes she sucks, but she is effective for commanding Militia and getting discounts on buying/selling. She even gets you discounts for buying things with Intel.
- Use Ira as scout/medic
- Make a spy/athletics IMP or hire Mouse if you have enough cash
- After recruiting Ira, go straight to San Mona and rescue Maria, bring the deed of shop to tattoo artist.
- Go to boxing ring and use Grizzly to win matches. You can also hire Bull instead, but Grizzly is cost effective. You can do the boxing matches every day or two, to win $15,000
- Use Ira as medic to heal Grizzly and as a scout to avoid enemy troops
- Capture SAM site near Chitzena. You will need control of this SAM to keep enemy helicopters from dropping troops in San Mona. Also you will find good guns at the SAM site.
- Send remaining mercs to Drassen, leave Ira/Grizzly at SAM or San Mona. Take airport and mine, but leave one enemy in the middle Drassen sector.
- Use Spy merc to blow up SAM control console near Drassen. You don't need full control of this site, and keeping militia there costs more money.
- Leave Spy there to continue gathering Intel points.
- Continue winning $15k boxing matches while taking Drassen and blowing up SAM.
- Save money to buy good guns at bobby Ray's. Tony is available but he won't be selling good stuff for awhile.
I tend to buy FAMAS or An-94 with match/tracer ammo and grenade launchers. Very cost effective. You can also wait longer to buy M21 EBR or SR-25 snipers. Buy attachments too.
- Buy tons of mines, claymores, grenades, mortars.
- You can also repair any guns you find, then use Flo as a pack mule for transporting guns to Tony for sell. Using Skyrider costs money, but it's worth the investment.
- Place mines all over South sector of Drassen mine, east sector and west.
- If you have extra explosives, set them around rocks on the edge of the sector. When enemy tries to take cover, blow them up along with the rocks.
- You can bring Grizzly/Ira back to Drassen mine to help with counterattack.
- Use Flo to command militia
- Use Ira as spotter on bathroom rooftop, next to Sniper IMPs
- Place Heavy Weapons Merc and Grizzly on rooftops. They will be launching mortars.
- Place one Merc on top of Mine office to launch grenades.
- Place another Merc on dentist office to take down the flanking enemies northwest of sector.
- Use radio operator to call nearby militia for mortar bombings. Don't forget to jam enemy radios.
- Enjoy!
[Updated on: Fri, 14 January 2022 01:22] Report message to a moderator
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