Home » JAGGED ALLIANCE 3 » JA 3 Wish List » If I was designing weapons in JA3
| If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47740]
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Tue, 10 April 2001 09:31 
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 Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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if I was designing the guns for JA3
I will be using ap rates based on the assumption of mercs in ja3 having the same basic amount of aps per turn as in ja2. I will be using ranges in hexes, assuming the size of map layouts in ja3 will be similar to ja2. I don
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47741]
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Tue, 10 April 2001 09:35 
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Weapons!
The weapons would fit in the following categories
pistol & machine pistol, true smg, pistol caliber rifle, rifle caliber smg, civilian rifle, assault rifle, battle rifle, sniper rifle, light machine gun. (These names would probably not appear in the game)
If two weapons were in the same category and fired the same round, they would have identical damage and ranges of the two weapons would be fairly similar (unlike the FA-MAS having 25, and the AUG having 50 even though they are firing the same bullet through barrels of identical length)
The damage of the weapon and its noise rate would be determined by the weapon class and the caliber of the round in the weapon, (al 9mm pistols would do the same damage and have the same noise level)
This begs the question of how big of a difference will there be between weapons.The variance between two weapons in the same category firing the same round (say between an Enflield L85A1 and a C-7) would be: aps to fire first shot, second shot, aps to reload, possible bolt penalty, possible accuracy bonus/penalty, durability of weapon, weight of the weapon, burst capable, number of shots in a burst, ap cost for burst, burst penalty
These are where guns really vary. Additional
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47742]
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Tue, 10 April 2001 09:51
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Calibers
Damage..Pistol.....SMG.....Rifle.....Sniper
(Aprox Range)
9mm.........22......24.....25.......x
..................(12)....(22)...(30)
45 acp......24......26.....27.......x
..................(12)....(20)...(28)
357 mag....24......x.......x.......x
..................(14)
44 mag......26......x......32.......x
..................(14)...........(32)
12 gua......x......40......40.......x
......................( ....(16)...(smg=sawed-off)
7.62x39w.....x......x......33.......x
.....................................(36)
5.45x39w.....x......32.....34.......x
.............................(28)...(40)
5.56x45N.....x......32.....35.......38
.............................(28)...(42)....(60)
7.62x51N.....x......x......38.......42
.......................................(48).....(75)
7.62x54R.....x......x......38.......42
.......................................(46).....(70)
**338Laupa...x......x......x........48
............................................(90)
**50 BMG.....x......x......x........70
............................................(120)
*5.7x28FN....23.....28.....x........x
.........................(12)...(28)
*4.7x34H&K...x......x......34.......x
......................................(42)
**may or may not be included in game, due to unbalancing power
*included for comparison purposes only, the guns that fire them are exceedingly rare
so why is the 7.62x51 NATO so much powerful than the 5.56x45 NATO, and if that is true, why did the gov stop using them?
The military realized that both rounds had the ability to kill a man effectively. The 7.62NATO was more powerful but came at the increased cost of more recoil, which ment more time training, less ability to control burst fire, (which is really in case you miss, a bullet close by will hit, not for multiple hits, as one square hit will take the enemy out of the fighting). The bigger rounds of 7.62NATO meant less rounds per pound of ammo carried. Also less powerful ammo meant it could work in lighter rifles, so more room to carry other stuff.
the 5.56 and similars did have some downfalls, they didnt' have the same ability to penetrate cement walls, nor the power for long shots. The gov decided that penetration of cover was not a big deal. They also realized that modern militaries were firing at enemies 50-100, rarely 200 yards away, and enemies beyond that were engaged with heavy machine guns, motars, Tank fire, ground artillary, and airstrikes (depending on range of course) This is why the military doesn't have any 5.56 sniper rifles
Mercs without HMGS mortars (well, we get the smaller one in JA2) and ground artillary can definately use that extra range.
This trend towards smaller less recoil lighter can be seen in the G11 program, as the 4.7 fires a bullet at the same speed as 5.56NATO but the bullet is significantly lighter (requires less force to get it that fast, less recoil, less power, etc)
Damn! I've edited this post 12 times and I give up, I think its close enough for you to get the info out. If any moderators or admins in there infinite wisdom want to fix it, you have my blessing
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 21 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47743]
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Tue, 10 April 2001 10:01
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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gun list
pistols
(9mm)
Berretta 92
Glock 19
Hewlan 951 (replace .38 S&W)
S&W 3913
Sig 210
H&K USP9
(45 APC)
Sig 220
M1911A1
Glock 21
H&K USP45 Expert
(44 mag)
S&W 29
Desert Eagle (if I have it in .50AE, then only 2 weapons fire 44 mag, and one 50AE
machine pistols
Micro-Uzi
Beretta 93R
Glock 18
Mauser M712
true SMGs
Ingrams MAC-10
Thompson
Colt 9 (M-16 in 9mm)
AUG 9
Beretta 12S
H&K MP5
H&K MP5K
Uzi
Mini-Uzi
RC SMGs
(RC stands for Rifle Caliber)
M-4 (colt commando improved)
AKSU
AUG shortbarrel
PC rifles
(pistol caliber)
Winchester 94 trapper (44 mag)
Marlin Camp Carbine (45 acp)
Ruger P9 (9mm)
assault rifles
(7.62x39)
NEF 30 Handy-Rifle (single shot)
SKS
AKM
Chec V58P
(5.45x39)
AK-74
(5.56)(bullpups)
Enfield L85A1
FA-MAS
Styer AUG
TAR 21
(5.56)
Mini-14
Beretta AR-70
Galil ARM
SG-540 sig
FN-FNC
H&K G-41
AR-15(c-7 & m-16)
Remington M7 (bolt)
NEF 223 Handy-Rifle (single shot)
battle rifles
(7.62x54R)
Mosin-Nagant (bolt action)
M-76 Yugo
(7.62x51N)
Remington M700 (bolt action)
Galil IMI SRM
H&K G3
M-14
FN-FAL
AR-10
Sniper rifles
(automatics)
SR-15M5
Dragnov SVD
SR-25T
M-21(Sniper m-14s)
H&K PSG-1
(Boltactions)
Savage TAC 223
Beretta SpA sniper
Sako TGR-21
L96A1
M24
**DA Longbow .338laupa**
**Barett 50bmg **
LMGs
haven't looked much yet, pretty much same as JA2
Shotguns
Topper SS #(single shot)
Beretta Trap #(double barrel)
Rem 870 wingmaster #
Rem 870 combat
Spas 12
# weapons can be "cut down" to a sawed off version, or found in this config originally
Magazines, I would introduce 2 different catagoires of pistol magazines, single stack and double stack
9mm single stack holds 8, ds holds 15
45acp ss holds 7, ds holds 13
machine pistols could either all take a 20 round mp mag, or could just use the 15 round ds 9mm mags, I'm still undecided
smg mags of any caliber are 30
5.56, 7.62x39, and 5.45 are all 30 rounders
7.62x39 also comes in 10 and loose
5.56 also comes in 10 and loose
(10 for mini-14, sks, loose for handirifle)
7.62x51Nato are 5 and 20, 7.62x54R are 5, 10, 30
.44 mag are 6 speedloader, 8magazine, and loose (mags of 1 basically)
loose are for winchester 94
all shotgun ammo is loose
I forgot to add 5.56 snipers to the list 
well, they are there now (sr-15m4 and savage tac223)
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 28 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47744]
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Tue, 10 April 2001 18:10
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Merc Techniques
Firing two pistols, one in each hand, would be allowed, but no additional aps could be spent on aiming. this technique would work well to increase firepower when in very close quarters like a tunnel or house, but not be a good technique when you need to hit a guy a decent distance away. The ambidexterity would be removed from the game.
Standing, kneeling, prone, would all yield the same cover benefits as well as the hindrance of more aps when moving. Additionally, kneeling and prone gives more stable platforms when firing shoulder-mounted weapons. Not including pistols and machine pistols, squatting gives +5, prone gives +5
Light Machine Gun- These are often the same designs seen in assault rifle and battle rifle categories, but have had options added to allow them to fire high rates of fire on a regular basis. These weapons incorporate heavier barrels than normal, and also require frequent barrel changes, usually fired from prone position with bipod. Same range and damage as assault and battle rifles, but more shots per burst. Same burst penalty as battle rifles, burst penalty is doubled when in a stance other than prone. will not accept a bipod because they will be considered to already have one (the bipod on the picture will be a quick tip-off what type of weapon is equipped)
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47747]
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Tue, 17 April 2001 19:15
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Pistols in JA3
All 9mm pistols have damage of 22 single stack holds 8 rounds, double stack 15
First I will just throw out names and numbers, a little farther down I will go into it with some explinations
included with the weapon stats:
Durability is on a scale of 10 best to 1 worst
I will start with the "standard", upon which, for them most part, the others stats are based upon, then tweaked to show individuality.
Beretta 92F
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 0.9 kg, double stack mags,
Glock 19
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 5, durability 9, prestige:med
weight 0.7 kg, double stack mags,
S&W 3913
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 0.6 kg, single stack mags,
+5 mrkship bonus
H&K USP9
range 12, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to reload 4, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 0.8 kg, double stack mags,
Sig 210
range 15, AP first shot 6, second 4,
aps to reload 6, durability 9, prestige:high
weight 1.0 kg, single stack mags,
+10 marksmanship
Hewlan 951
range 10, AP first shot 8, second 6,
aps to reload 7, durability 5, prestige:low
weight 0.9 kg, single stack mags,
I will start with the "standard", upon which, for them most part, the others stats are based upon, then tweaked to show individuality. You may not agree with standard values, so remember that if you don't like the standard value, look at the other stats as how they deviate
I realize that isn't too clear. Okay, if pistol A has value 9, and B has value 7, you may believe that A should be 4, which would also mean that you disagree with B being 7, but you may agree that B should be 1-2 points lower than A
the first bit of text will be the type of discription the second bit is to explain why I chose the numbers I did.
Beretta 92F
A common pistol found in the hands of police and military, it won the US military trials to be the next sidearm, due to both its ablility to meet the requirements and the low pricetag.
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 0.9 kg, double stack mags,
as said, the standard upon which I built the rest. I chose the beretta due to its being common, being in the hands of us and canadian militaries, and that it was in JA2, but I could have used sigs or s&w or rugers, as they all are very similar in RL and game stats would be the same, no use including then just for a different name.
Standard pistol aps for fist and second shot, it has a double action trigger. This means that to pull the trigger for the first shot takes extra force (like 15 lbs) mostly so that the gun does not accidentally go off. This slows the gun and makes it harder to shoot. The second shot is much easier (like 10-8 lbs) so second shot aps are lowered. The double action trigger is most common, so it is "standard"
Glock 19
Another common sidearm throughout the world, its claim to fame being the fist pistol to be made mostly from space age polymers for light weight and excellent durablity
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 5, durability 9, prestige:med
weight 0.7 kg, double stack mags,
Lighter than the 92F, as well as more durable due to materails and that it has few external controls to wear or damage. The glock as has hybrid trigger, the fist and second shots taking the same weight to pull, and traveling the same distance, as the first 92F shot, so the second shot on the same target will not gain as much as the 92F(whose trigger gets easier) Included due to its presense in JA2 and its being common and loved world wide. I chose the 19 as it is designed to hold 15 rounds, the 17 of JA actually holds 17 rounds (thats why it was called the 17!)
S&W 3913
Mostly a civilian weapon, this small light gun has a reputation for easy concealment, as well as suprising accuracy. Commonly found in homes for self-defense or by soldiers willing to pay extra for a lightweight accurate arm.
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 0.6 kg, single stack mags,
+5 mrkship bonus
This little gun is a perrenial favorite. It is suprisingly accurate, and its hard to nail down why. (it has a "big brother" who is identical except to holding more rounds, but on average isn't as accurate as this) Pretty similar in funtion to beretta so stats the same, lighter as it is smaller, and of course that accuracy.
H&K USP9
A handgun designed for all uses, this Teutonic design from the famous maker is just beginning to get the attention it deserves. The modular design means you can have it your way.
range 12, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to reload 4, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 0.8 kg, double stack mags,
this modular pistol can be set up as single action and the stats reflect it as such. Single action is the trigger pull is the same all shots, and it is very short (5-7lbs each time) It is carried with the hammer back, and safty is positioned so it can be flipped off without thought as the gun swings on target. This is a VERY fast design. As the second shot is the same as the first, it does not gain as much speed for second shots as would the beretta 92F, but still faster overall. Its polymer so tough as a glock, still quite light weight. its magazine release is positioned a little differently than normal, is large and ambidextrious and to activate it requires less movement of the hands than any other design, so it gets a slight improvement over the beretta 92F
SIG 210
This is the swiss watch of 9mms, and for most prohibitively expensive. If you can afford it, this is the most accurate 9mm pistol around
range 15, AP first shot 6, second 4,
aps to reload 7, durability 8, prestige:high
weight 1.0 kg, single stack mags,
+10 marksmanship
a true gem costing around $2000 US, this gun is almost a work of art. It has an excellent trigger and the best target sights. Everything is hand fitted to perfection. All these add up to an excellent, accurate weapon, but for most police forces and militaries, the extra performance isn't worth the pricetag.
Excellent performance, barrel slightly longer than norm, and excellent sights account for the increase in the range. The trigger is a single action, but the safty catch isn't in the perfect position so it is a little slower than most other single actions. The second shot is so smooth it is as fast as all other single actions. Its an old design so it's mag release is not the modern "fast" ones, hence the slighly slower mag reloads. (Note, this is not Sig's "standard" 9mm, that is the sig 226, which is damn similar to beretta 92F in size, 15 rounds, weight, etc, which wasn't worth including as a seperate weapon. I wanted to include this excellent weapon, especially as another ss weapon.)
Hewlan 951
An Egyptian copy of the Beretta 951, precursor of the current Beretta. This simple and inexpensive pistol can be found thorought the world, its only drawbacks are the low magazine capacity and the safty catch is in an akward position.
range 10, AP first shot 8, second 6,
aps to reload 7, durability 5, prestige:low
weight 0.9 kg, single stack mags,
Hewlan is the replacement for the S&W revolver. It is slow fist shoot due to an akward safty as mentioned. It does not have a double action trigger but the trigger is crappy enough so you get the same ap drop as the 92F, Its poor sights, as well as the age and wear internally on the gun, reflect the range being low, slow reload, but at least the chamber locks open (I don't think they are still being made, but there is still a ton of them floating around)
9mm pistol magazines are 9mm SS or DS standing for single stack or double stack, a pistol can take one or the other, but when not in combat you can load your gun with the incorrect type, as long as it is some type of 9mm. ss holds 8, ds holds 15
I will try to get all the stats as I see them out in groups every second day.
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"Are any reasonings valid or not? If they answer no, then their own doctrine, being reached by reason, fall to the ground. If they answer yes, then they will have to examine your arguments and refute them on their merits, for if some reasoning is valid, your bit may be one of the valid bits of reasoning..." Lewis
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 28 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47750]
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Wed, 18 April 2001 11:09
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| TorsoTheClown |
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Messages:11
Registered:October 2000 |
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Great post. I love the ideas here.
I have a few things to say (always do hehe).
First, Beta C drum style mags. Please god no. Please please please!
These are not as common as people think, they unbalance the weapon, are finecky and have some nasty problems if you get them very wet (well, muddy water) or dirty... Also, it turns a rifle into a near SAW, which is a bad thing for JA, if you ask me.
I like the ideas about reloading. It would provide difference between the weapons. Also, the AR series can have their "hold open" devices modded to automatically snap closed when a fresh magazine cleares the chamber.
Suppressors for rifles are a must but lower damage and are rare as hen's teeth. Silencers are great. Please god, put an MP5SD series in there...
The Surefire Tac Light idea is good... Would provide some interesting tactical challenges such as "taking a bath" where all members of the unit flash their lights simultaneously and open fire on targets of opportunity if the operation is clandestine. A real bitch hehe.
The laser sight should lose its bonus past a certain distance unless you are using an advanced optics scope such as UV or IR.
As for damages? UP UP UP UP UP. APs? DOWN DOWN DOWN DOWN DOWN!
:0)
The sling is a dumb idea. Sorry. :0P
The only kind of sling that I could ever thing that would give you a bonus of some kind is a tactical 3 point sling. Real beauties. My experiences with the things have all been great. The weapon is muzzle down at low port when dead hanging and you can manipulate the environment easily then get your weapon to full shoulder, extention and firing position in the blink of an eye. If you have one of those nice sliding adjustment rigs, the sling slides the weapon in as you let go and the sling extends to a preset max for tension when brought up to fire. Really excellent systems.
If anything, it should lower ther AP cost of first shot, decrease penalties for changing inventory items, lower penalties for first shots after manipulating the environment etc. Just a thought. Can anyone say "cross draw tactical vest" or perhaps "drop leg holster"? :0)
By the way, you just about landed it with the pistols. The Sig Suaer pistols are truly pieces of artwork. Methinks the trigger pull not perfectly crisp, but its fluidic once you reach a decent rythm.
Just my $.02
- the Ice Man
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There is no hunting like the hunting of man, and those who have hunted armed men for long enough and liked it, never care for anything else thereafter.
- Ernest Hemingway
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47751]
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Wed, 18 April 2001 15:45
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Quote:Originally posted by The_Sabre:
As far as I know, some double-barreled shotguns have a spring-thingy that automatically ejects the spent shell casings--it only engages when the triggers have been pulled. I dunno if this is on all double-barreleds, but it is on some of them.
yup, that would be the automatic ejectors....
they are present on some models, but not all, and are connected to the hinge action (so when you open it, they pop out)
you still load shells one at a time.
why have a load singlely function?
Good question, as it really isn't necessary for gameplay, except that I am introducing a few single shot weapons. Once the system is in place for them, why not also use it for the guns that do not take magazines, as 90% of the work is done.
why include single shot weapons then?
again, good question. Answer: game balance. I felt it would be good to allow the players to have the long range weapons early in the game, but at a level that would not be overpowering (so that the pistol is not immediately replaced) One way to do this is to introduce a gun that would allow one shot per turn, if that. This is accomplished by having it be a single shot and having it have large reload costs. You pull it out when the enemy is out of range, but when they are in range, its better to have 2-3 shots with the pistol
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47752]
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Wed, 18 April 2001 16:34
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Quote:Originally posted by Snap:
Your suggestions primarily target "realism" (a very vague term). Keep in mind though that in JA series gameplay triumphs over realism and I hope it will stay this way. Also many of your suggestions unnecessarily complicate the game. For instance, some of your AP ideas, such as recoil, can be easily accomodated by the current AP system with minimal loss of detail.
I too believe that playabilty trumps all other factors. That being said, there are many games with high playability that have no appeal to me due to the subject matter or the manner in which they function (example, a game about barbie, or a first person shooter similar to JA)
In selecting guns, I did give much thought to play balance. There are enough different firearms designes so I could say "here is what stats I think would fit well in JA" then go and find a gun to fit.
Example would be the inclusion of the Hewlan pistol. I thought JA3 should have a real crappy gun like the S&W, but I disproved of any weapon that would leave tons of worthless ammo lying around. IMHO JA3 would need a 9mm gun, crappy like the S&W, and with about the same ammo capacity. This lead me to find the Hewlan. I was already tossing around the idea of having two sizes of magazines for pistols, most espeically for .45s. The choice of having .38 specials, 15 rnd 9mm, and 7 rnd 45s was inferior to having 15 and 8 rnd 9mms, as well as 13 and 7 rnd .45s
If you watch the catagories, they progress linearly from poor to best. There are a lot of things I never first would have thought I would include, but later when trying to build linear progessions, I added them to fit
the "pistol caliber rifles" would be an example of this. I wanted some weapons simlar to the mini-14, the way it is currently portrayed in JA2, basically something that had slightly better range than a MP5, but no burst capability, hence the creation and addition of this catagory
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47753]
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Wed, 18 April 2001 17:27
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Quote:Originally posted by Snap:
Also many of your suggestions unnecessarily complicate the game. For instance, some of your AP ideas, such as recoil, can be easily accomodated by the current AP system with minimal loss of detail.
well, here I disagree. There are many things that complicate the game, but I think it adds to it (example, the fact that weapons wear out, or that things can be combined and attached, or night and day battles complicate the game, but more importantly, they do make it better IMHO) It is however, a good thing to always keep in mind, will it unnecesarily complicate the game, either when playing or when programming.
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47754]
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Wed, 18 April 2001 19:20
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Quote:Originally posted by TorsoTheClown:
Great post. I love the ideas here.
thanks!
Quote:
I have a few things to say (always do hehe).
First, Beta C drum style mags. Please god no. Please please please!
These are not as common as people think, they unbalance the weapon, are finecky and have some nasty problems if you get them very wet (well, muddy water) or dirty... Also, it turns a rifle into a near SAW, which is a bad thing for JA, if you ask me.
well, to let you in on a secret, I am in favor of them being an attachment, so you can then make them as rare as necessary. I envision them showing up late in the game, when LMGs start to be found. I also think they should wear fast. I wanted the LMGs to have more restrictions (I am sure you noticed the severe penalties if you were to shoot one and you weren't prone in a post up above) I thought it would be great to have the extended mag/ammo box (as I am sure the smart player would slap the 50mag on his LMG) give out under the heavy demands of repeated burst firing. It is much demanded by the masses, and having it wear a lot (when the mag is in poor contition, cause the gun to jamm, even when the gun itself is in good condition) would even it out
Quote:
Suppressors for rifles are a must but lower damage and are rare as hen's teeth. Silencers are great. Please god, put an MP5SD series in there...
I disagree with lowering damage for rifle supressors. Yes the velocity of the round is impacted in a negative fasion, but it is a relatively small drop. The rounds remain supersonic, which is part of the reason a supressed rifle will still make quite a bit of noise, but it will be less, and it will be harder to tell where exactly the noise is comming from
MP5SD is a standard MP5 with a integral silencer around the entire barrel. How exactly would this differ than a standard MP5 with a silencer threaded onto the barrel? Not much IMHO, so thats why I chose to not include it, being that as far as such differences are expressed in JA mechanics, it would be very hard to reflect the small differences in them.
Tactical Lights, the way I see them working now is to illuminate a cone shaped group of tiles, including the tile the holder is in (so you make yourself visible...come on, like the enemy isn't going to notice the flashlight source)but black-out the holder, like when your merc knows where the enemy is, but can't see them directly, you can still target them and take pot shots.
Quote:
The laser sight should lose its bonus past a certain distance unless you are using an advanced optics scope such as UV or IR.
I got you here. The point being that at long ranges, the "dot" from the laser sight is hard to see. The factor that UV etc does not help is that the "dot" can be as big as a basketball at 100 yards, which is hard on precision aiming, and contributes to the "dot" being much dimmer.
here is my thinking for not changing "laser sight" for simplicity sake, you can pull a magazine out of a glock and stick it in a beretta, even though in RL they would be incompatable. The "lasersight" could be considered a standard "pointer" type, a red-dot scope, or a laser rangefinder scope add-on, depending if it was on a pistol, smg, sniper rifle or what have you. I have thought about the posibility of restricting laser sight to weapons with range of 25 or less, and then adding other laser utalizing sight devices as other accessories useable only on rifles, etc, but then thought that the term laser sight is broad enough so you can call multiple devices laser sights and stick with one item.
damages up, aps down? in RL most will give a high probability of a one shot kill, but that would be awful harsh for the player. I wanted to keep the same relative damage levels as JA2, but have a much stronger differential between pistols, assault rifles, and battle rifles
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The sling is a dumb idea. Sorry. :0P
The only kind of sling that I could ever thing that would give you a bonus of some kind is a tactical 3 point sling. Real beauties. My experiences with the things have all been great. The weapon is muzzle down at low port when dead hanging and you can manipulate the environment easily then get your weapon to full shoulder, extention and firing position in the blink of an eye. If you have one of those nice sliding adjustment rigs, the sling slides the weapon in as you let go and the sling extends to a preset max for tension when brought up to fire. Really excellent systems.
as I am sure you know, the reason a sling will improve stability (and hence make things easier to hit) is the tension you exert on the sling and rifle and body, you make a stablizing triange. Most people don't use them as such, but all standard slings can be set up in this fasion. Standard slings, unlike 3 point however, being set up this way negates the ability of the sling to be used to carry the gun (except in a few odd, but suprising effective positions, like my favorite, having the gun on the left shoulder, barrel straight down, trigger pointing forward, all the gun behind you)
anyways, you could always consider it a 3 pos tactical.
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If anything, it should lower ther AP cost of first shot, decrease penalties for changing inventory items, lower penalties for first shots after manipulating the environment etc. Just a thought. Can anyone say "cross draw tactical vest" or perhaps "drop leg holster"? :0)
this is keying in on the ability of a sling to aid in carrying the gun, a feature i was ignoring, as I think JA3 should be set up a little different as far as the rules for moving stuff from pack to hands, it should also be based on the assumptions that you have all the cool straps and bags and pouches and whatnot to access your equipment quickly, like magazine pouches, grenades attached to your belt close at hand, pistol in a holster, etc.
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By the way, you just about landed it with the pistols. The Sig Suaer pistols are truly pieces of artwork. Methinks the trigger pull not perfectly crisp, but its fluidic once you reach a decent rythm.
are you refering to the sig 210 or the entire sig line? I personally put the entire sig line of pistols above beretta and S&W etc (but not H&K and the newest walther)
all that being said, the sig 210 puts the rest of the sigs to shame. Head and shoulders above, maybe even head and shoulders and torso above. I could rename the stats I labeled as beretta 92F as sig 228, as they are nearly identical in quality, funciton, etc, but why (esp when the 92F makes more sense due to refering to the hewlan as a predicessor, and by having the 93R in the game
anyways, thanks to all for your comments
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"Are any reasonings valid or not? If they answer no, then their own doctrine, being reached by reason, fall to the ground. If they answer yes, then they will have to examine your arguments and refute them on their merits, for if some reasoning is valid, your bit may be one of the valid bits of reasoning..." Lewis
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47755]
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Wed, 18 April 2001 20:30
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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45 pistols
all pistols do damage 24
durability 10 best 1 worst
single stack is 7 rounds, 13 in a double
again starting out with the standard
Sig 220
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 0.8 kg, single stack mags,
Glock 21
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 5, durability 9, prestige:med
weight 0.7 kg, double stack mags,
Gvt 1911
range 12, AP first shot 5, second 4
aps to reload 7, durability 10, prestige:med
weight 1.1kg, single stack mags
H&K USP45E
range 14, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to reload 4, durability 9 prestige:med-hi
weight 1.0 kg, double stack mags,
+5 marksmanship
Sig 220
This generaton of the sig is a rework of the old 210 to allow it to be mass produced as made less expensive, The result was entirely successful Although it does not include the target sights, nor is it hand fitted, its lower price and solid workmanship have made it much more successfull than the 210
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 0.8 kg, single stack mags,
These stats are identical to beretta 92F execpt the weight, and mag capacity, (and of course its a 45, doing 24 damage instead of 22) Again, this could have been a lot of gun brands, but last time beretta had their day, so its sigs turn
Glock 21
Another common sidearm throughout the world, its claim to fame being the fist pistol to be made mostly from space age polymers for light weight and excellent durablity
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 5, durability 9, prestige:med
weight 0.7 kg, double stack mags,
This is so identical to the 19 that it didn't require a singe stat ajustment, aside from the fact it is firing 13 .45s not 15 9mm
Gvt 1911
This old war horse is going strong at 80 years old. It may not be pretty, but it is powerful and fast. When you need a friend in a back alley of cairo or tunnels in vietnam, the 1911 will see you through
range 12, AP first shot 5, second 4
aps to reload 7, durability 10, prestige:med
weight 1.1kg, single stack mags
This is a single action, the safty being positioned so it can be snapped off as the gun is brought to bear on target. The trigger is light and does not have to move far for the first or any shot. These design factors make any gun fast, its why the FBI listed single action colt style safty release when they sent specs for pistols for the FBI SWAT/Hostage Rescue team. The govt is reliable as hell, partly due to the parts all fit together loosely, which has the negative consequence of limiting accuracy. There are match accutate 1911s out there (most match pistols are 1911s in fact, but its due to the fact that its design is the fastest) but they all have had major interal parts replaced.
H&K USP45E
Teutonic design from the famous maker is just beginning to get the attention it deserves. This particular USP45 integrates much of what H&K learned from its recent military contract, and includes features to allow the best accuracy and handling, whether in a competition or in combat
range 14, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to reload 4, durability 9 prestige:med-hi
weight 1.0 kg, double stack mags,
+5 marksmanship
I was at first thinking of including the standard usp45 (itwould have been the same as the usp9) but figured the discering merc would pick up this improved variety. It has a longer barrel, improved sights, more attention is paid to the trigger, barrel, and action lockup. Its designed for shooting competitively as much as for combat (they also have a special tactical model, which these stats could also represent. the tactical model has all the features of the expert but a slighly shorter barrel) and has a reputation for extreme accuracy beyond the rep of the standard usp45, which is why I gave it the bonus, but it just isn't up to the masterworkmanship ofthe sig210 so the bonus isn't as big (although i would prefer it over the sig210 if i was a merc) It too costs more that standard fair, this time only double (sig210 is 4x the price)
due to the sights being improved and the longer barrel, I gave the weapon increased range, but again, not quite the range of the sig210. But in comparision to the sig210 to figure out what is the all around best pistol, remember that the USP45Expert holds 13 rounds not 8, and does 24 damage not 22
I also could have included the H&K .45 SOCOM. I still might. the socom would have the same stats except it is almost twice as heavy, has durability of 10, and would have a marksmanship bonus of 10 not 5
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"Are any reasonings valid or not? If they answer no, then their own doctrine, being reached by reason, fall to the ground. If they answer yes, then they will have to examine your arguments and refute them on their merits, for if some reasoning is valid, your bit may be one of the valid bits of reasoning..." Lewis
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 28 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47756]
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Sat, 21 April 2001 02:02
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| Uzi |
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Messages:69
Registered:March 2000
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
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I'm just really being finicky, but You do NOT need to remove Your right hand (if You're a right hander) from the grip/trigger when loading a Kalashnikov-style weapon. In the FSDF training the right hand stays on the grip/trigger as the left manipulates the mag and bolt. It's not easy, the configuration of the rifle being what it is, but beats taking your hand off the grip and becoming essentially helpless. Oh, and anybody wondering why I'd want to keep an empty weapon ready, it's because due training You're supposed to reload BEFORE You're completely out of bullets, thus making sure You still got 1 in the barrel.
As said, this is really just nagging about minor details, especially since the end results would be probably the same. Must apologise for not being able to add anything more productive to Akodos most thorough and well thought-out posts.
Uzi
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"If you need something shot, give me a call. Otherwise, I'm not interested." -Buzz
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Corporal
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47758]
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Sat, 21 April 2001 19:04
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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.44 magnum pistols
I originally had .357 but I don't like one gun per ammo type, same with desert eagle in .50AE, If I have the DE in .44, thats one more gun in addition to the S&W, and I add a .44 carbine to boot. I could of had a .357 revolver, .357 Desert Eagle, and .357 carbine, but I figured if someone was carrying a revolver instead of an automatic, they would take the one with the most punch, plus many posts in other topics begged for desert eagle in a more powerful round, and while it isn't .50AE, its still a whopper
all pistols do damage 26
durability 10 best 1 worst
S&W 29
range 15, AP first shot 8(+3), second 7(+3)
aps to reload 8, durability 9, prestige:med
weight 1.3 kg, 6 round speedloader
+3 is recoil, more on that later
Desert Eagle
range 13, AP first shot 8(+2), second 6(+2)
aps to reload 6, durability 7, prestige:med-hi
weight 1.9kg, 8 round magazine
+2 is recoil
S&W 29
If your a fan of "Dirty Larry" then this is the gun for you. A robust long barreled revolver firing .44 magnums. If you can handle the recoil, it will take care of the rest.
range 15, AP first shot 8(+3), second 7(+3)
aps to reload 8, durability 9, prestige:med
weight 1.3 kg, 6 round speedloader
+3 is recoil, more on that later
The S&W has a great range because it is a hunting revolver, developed for longer ranges. It has great sights, which are ajustable, it has a long barrel, and you can thumb cock the hammer for great accuracy (cocking the hammer would be part of why aiming takes aps) These were reflected in the slightly longer range. As a revolver, the second trigger pull is identical to the first, so that is why there is little ap change. Recoil is worse than DE because it is a lighter gun.
Desert Eagle
The gun seen in the latest action movie. This nicke plated bad boy weighs a ton, but it ads to the control. When firing the mighy .44 magnums, you need all the control you can get!
range 13, AP first shot 8(+2), second 6(+2)
aps to reload 6, durability 7, prestige:med-hi
weight 1.9kg, 8 round magazine
+2 is recoil
The DE does not have very impressive sites for long range shooting (although they are as good as what would be found on a beretta 92F for example) but its great mass dampens the recoil. The heavy gun does take some time to swing around, etc, so thats why the aps start at 8
Recoil!
first, what is it in RL, its the kick of the gun, which moves the gun off target and gives the shooter a good shake. Its not conducive to fast firing.
in JA3, I explain it above, here is a quick review, its another AP cost you pay after you fire. If you don't have enough aps to pay it, the cost will reduce your aps next turn (so you can run around a corner, shoot with the last 8 aps, and pay for it next round)
Why start recoil at this power level?
good question! glad you asked
the .45 and .357 are considered quite powerful but manageable with some practice (marksmanship +35 lets say)
people wanted a more powerful autopistol than .45s, especailly the FBI, so the 10mm was invented. After the FBI had what it wanted, the field agents started to complain that the recoil was just too brutal for them to handle, so the FBI eventually turned to the .40 S&W. I chose 10mm to start recoil for handguns, it would have been +2. However, I decided to drop 10mm from the guns I would include, as it was pretty exotic, and I already had an extensive list of pistols (it would of had 25 damage, right between .45 and .44, I also dropped the .40 for the same reason, it would have had damage of 23, right between 9mm and 45)
anyway, the .44 mag is more powerful than the 10mm, it has even more recoil (+3 standard) the Desert Eagle gets a recoil break, as it was specifically designed to shoot these ziggers, and the engineers made it heavier than necessary to tame recoil
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 28 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47759]
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Mon, 23 April 2001 10:13
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Pistol Caliber Rifles
These are rifles that shoot the same rounds as handguns. This is done because longer barrels and shoulder stocks allow much greater ease of shooting, and accuracy than handguns. The recoil of these is much less than standard rifles, so many police departments or people with little training prefer them. Additionally, it is nice to be able to put the clip from your sidearm into your shoulder weapon when needed. The .44 mag shot from a carbine barrel is in the same catagory as far as power as most military rifle cartriges.
damage 9mm 25
damage 45 acp 27
damage 44 mag 32
Ruger P9 (9mm)
range 30, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 6, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 2.8 kg, double stack mag (15 rounds),
Marlin Camp Carbine (45 acp)
range 28, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 8, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 3.0 kg, single stack mags (7 rounds)
Winchester 94 trapper (44 mag)
range 32, AP first shot 8, second 7,
aps to reload 1, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 2.7 kg, load singlely 10 rounds
Ruger P9 (9mm)
This rifle was designed to be a companion to the police officer. It accepts the same magazine as pistols, but gives the officer much greater range as well as slightly more punch.
range 30, AP first shot 7, second 5,
aps to reload 6, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 2.8 kg, double stack mag (15 rounds),
The range of 30 is standard for pistol caliber rounds, as I see them. I built the others stats after figuring this oneout
Marlin Camp Carbine (45 acp)
A good campfire companion to drive away any threat on four legs or two. It accepts pistol magazines, is light and easy to shoot, while giving the ability to hit targets much farther out.
range 28, AP first shot 8, second 6,
aps to reload 8, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 3.0 kg, single stack mags (7 rounds)
The .45 is a slower heavier less arodynamic round than the 9mm, so it has a slighyly lesser range. The marlin is a good weapon, but not great, maintianence and cleaning can be a real chore for it, so that is why the durability is lower, and the trigger is often "mushy" not quite as good as the ruger (plus its a much older design)
Winchester 94 trapper (44 mag)
A good well rounded rifle, which can be found hanging in the back of pickups throught the west, and before that, on saddles of horses. Quick and powerful, this leveraction rifle will give fancy assualt guns a run for their money
range 32, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to reload 1, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 2.7 kg, load singlely 10 rounds
Again, a real beaut here, especially on a 100 year old design. light and fast gives it low aps for first shot, the lever action is quick, but still a little more effort than an automatic so that is why it gets less of a gain for second shots. It doesn't take a clip, you feed the round in with any spare aps you have to keep it full after a shot or two. Compared to the 9mm bullet, the .44 is heavier and faster, so it has a little better range.
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 28 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47761]
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Mon, 23 April 2001 21:59
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Shotguns! I was just about to add those(holding off on the catagory with burst penalties)
Again,I am using recoil, the system exacts a price for shooting a firearm with a lot of kick, allowing the player to shoot approximately the same amount of shots over say five turns as they would be able to in JA2. The price in ap comes after the shot (if you don't have enough aps, it comes from next turns aps) e.x. you have 25 aps, the shotgun in JA2 would cost 13 ap, meaing you could move 4 squares crouched and shoot, with this system if it has ap of 7 recoil of 6, you could move 6 squares fire and get 19 aps at the start of next turn. This would allow players to have one merc open a door, 3 run in with shotguns and blast away, but the next turn be ap hindered
damage for shotguns is 40
the "normal" shells are considered hunting or birdshot shells, Buckshot will act the same way as hollow points, as far as increased damage
slugs will give a +4 to weapons range and additionally will act the same as hollowpoints.
AP slugs will give a +4 to weapons range and act using the same rules as armor piercing ammo.
Shotguns
Rem 870 wingmaster
range 16 AP first shot 7(+5), second 5(+5),
aps to reload 3, durability 8 prestige:med
weight 3.3 kg, load singlely 5 shot,
Sawed off wingmaster
range 8 AP first shot 6(+7), second 5(+7),
aps to reload 3, durability 7 prestige:med
weight 3.0 kg, load singlely 5 shot,
Rem 870 combat
range 16 AP first shot 6(+5), second 5(+5),
aps to reload 3, durability 9 prestige:med
weight 3.2 kg, load singlely 9 shot,
Spas 12
range 16 AP first shot 6(+4), second 5(+4),
aps to reload 3, durability 7 prestige:med
weight 3.5 kg, load singlely 9 shot,
Topper SS (single shot)
range 14 AP first shot 6(+7), second NA
aps to reload 12, durability 8 prestige:low
weight 2.9 kg, load singlely 1 shot,
Sawed off Topper
range 7 AP first shot 5(+9), second NA
aps to reload 12, durability 8 prestige:low
weight 2.7 kg, load singlely 1 shot,
Beretta Trap (double barrel)
range 16 AP first shot 5(+6), second 4(+6) Both Barrels 6(+10)
aps to reload 6, durability 9 prestige:med
weight 2.9 kg, load singlely 2 shot,
Sawed off Trap
range 8 AP first shot 4(+9), second 3(+9) Both Barrels 5(+18)
aps to reload 6, durability 8 prestige:med
weight 2.5 kg, load singlely 2 shot,
I am also introducing a new accessory
shell sidesaddle - this device clips onto the gun and keeps shells nice and handy, in game terms, it reduced the reload aps by 1
there are the stats for all who are interested, now I will rehash them with the text the player will see, a repeat of the weapon stats, and a little bit of why I made it that way.
Rem 870 wingmaster
This classic hunting arm probably has taken down its fair share of pheasants, now its time to earn its keep on two legged game
range 16 AP first shot 7(+5), second 5(+5),
aps to reload 3, durability 8 prestige:med
weight 3.3 kg, load singlely 5 shot,
This is the basic shotgun patten I went with, all pretty simple.
Sawed off wingmaster
Once some hunters pride and joy, it has been cut down to become the bankrobbers best friend.
range 8 AP first shot 6(+7), second 5(+7),
aps to reload 3, durability 7 prestige:med
weight 3.0 kg, load singlely 5 shot,
Sawed off versions drop a little weight, drop a little durablity (hey some yutz with a hacksaw was going at it, its not going to get better...). APs to reload and capacity of course remain unchanged. With a shorter and lighter weapon, it handles very fast (part of why its a premier entry weapon for SWAT etc) The down side is that it greatly increases the uncontrolablity of the arm. This is sawed offs in general. The wingmaster didn't get a big drop in aps as you can't saw it as short as the others (the underbarrel magazine gets in the way)
Rem 870 combat
This weapon was never intended to take game. Designed as the perfect home defense weapon or for the jungles of the 'nam. Quick handling and large capacity make this a feared weapon.
range 16 AP first shot 6(+5), second 5(+5),
aps to reload 3, durability 9 prestige:med
weight 3.2 kg, load singlely 9 shot,
based off wingmaster, the aps for fist shot are reduced due to a shorter barrel, but then the second shot is not as greatly reduced. Durablility is really good, standard pumps are nearly indestructable and this model just imrpoves it. 9 shot counts the round in the chamber. No sawed off version, as the room to get 8 rounds under the barrel itself sticks out 18-20 inches, and the barrel itself is that long.
Spas 12
This semi-automatic shotgun can be pumped as well, especially when using special non-leathal rounds, but why would you bother?
range 16 AP first shot 6(+4), second 5(+4),
aps to reload 3, durability 7 prestige:med
weight 3.5 kg, load singlely 9 shot,
The heavier weight and the fact that it is an automatic work together to give slightly less recoil than the other shotguns. Durability is lower because as an automaic in general it is a a little more comlplicated in general, harder to clean as its easy to get stuff in gas chamber, and this particular gun has a reputation for failing in semi-auto and people having to rely on pumping it.
Topper SS (single shot)
A beginners gun, or a home defense arm for anyone on a budget. This little boomstick is fast and powerful, but its only a single shot, and reloading is difficult.
range 14 AP first shot 6(+7), second NA
aps to reload 12, durability 8 prestige:low
weight 2.9 kg, load singlely 1 shot,
Fast handling, but light weight is bringing up the recoil. The reload proccess is longer as it doesn't have a good extractor, so you have to take the gun off your shoulder, break it open, pull out the shell by hand, replace it, shut the gun, then cock the external hammer, now you are finally ready to go agian. This is also a play balance thing. This should be the first shotgun a player gets his hands on, and he is still going to need to rely on his pistol after the first shot.
simplicity of the design pays off in good durablility
Sawed off Topper
Single shot street sweeper here. Its fast and its deadly! It better be, as you only get one shot. Best when used to threaten the unarmed.
range 7 AP first shot 5(+9), second NA
aps to reload 12, durability 8 prestige:low
weight 2.5 kg, load singlely 1 shot,
same as above, and you are really paying for recoil now
Beretta Trap (double barrel)
In some countries, this work of art would fetch a pretty penny, but here economics are more based on how well it will keep you alive. One thing for the trap gun, its smooth swinging, light and fast!
range 16 AP first shot 5(+5), second 4(+5) Both Barrels 6(+10)
aps to reload 6, durability 9 prestige:med
weight 2.9 kg, load singlely 2 shot,
Guns like this are designed to swing up and onto targets in a snap, especially when it is a bird exploding into the air from in front of your feet, or a pair of 3inch diameter disks flying though the air. Reflected this in the low ap cost, and recoil is still manageable due to a well worked stock. Like the topper, reloading is slow, but the shells automaically eject and the hammers are internal, so they automaically cock for you. Plus, you get a second gun.
Both Barrles, similar to how a burst or talon is activated, a second red circle apears partailly overlapping the first. This model of berretta has a single trigger, pull it all the way back in one sharp tug (in fact, very easy to do by accident)and both barrels will go off giving two shots, both will hit or both will miss. Of course, the recoil is b!tch.
Sawed off Trap
Someone has taken a gun worth 2 grand and cut it to peaces, oh well, now its a great handling entry weapon. Feels like prohibition all over again. "give em both barrels Al!"
range 8 AP first shot 4(+9), second 3(+9) Both Barrels 5(+16)
aps to reload 6, durability 8 prestige:med
weight 2.5 kg, load singlely 2 shot,
again, following the sawed off pattern, very very fast gun. but difficult to control. the both barrels is a whopper, don't count on firing agian next round, and if this is the only weapon youve got, well its going to take a little bit to get it reloaded again, maybe you'll need to use it like a club...oh wait, now that the smoke has cleared, your target is just a greasy smear.
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"Are any reasonings valid or not? If they answer no, then their own doctrine, being reached by reason, fall to the ground. If they answer yes, then they will have to examine your arguments and refute them on their merits, for if some reasoning is valid, your bit may be one of the valid bits of reasoning..." Lewis
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 23 April 2001).]
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 28 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47767]
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Fri, 27 April 2001 17:10
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Quote:Originally posted by quasimodo:
[B]However, imagine all things being equal and model the probability of getting an effective hit with a spread of shot as opposed to a single slug. I leave it to you experts to come up with actual numbers, but there must be some benefit at some range. Using Akodo Deathseeker's numbers I calculate the cone shaped volume of space swept out by the shotgun pellets in the first 10 yds (assuming a 10 inch diameter spread) is some 360 times that of the cylindrical volume swept by a .30 cal slug in the same 10 yds.
Humm, never thought of it that way, so yes, it does affect a greater area of space, but both volumes of space are miniscule compared to the vicinity in which you are not shooting. In other words, you need to "aim" with both.
Quote:
Certainly anyone who is a bad enough marksman, or unlucky enough can miss with any gun at any range.
You don't have to be a bad marksman to miss at close ranges. I have a novice friend who wanted to shoot a H&K .45, went to a range and rented one, zoomed a 2ftx2ft target out to ten yards, and missed with all 10 shots (thats one square away in JA2 terms) Granted, a little bit of effort in aiming helps, but if you just stick a gun out and start shooting in someones vicinity, you will only hit them if oyu get lucky. Recent news in my home town was a cop shooting a guy in the leg. Some media spun it afterwards like he was trying to shoot the guy without doing much harm, but he discharged his weapon 4 times, and only hit the guy once, in his leg, at close range (20 yards or so IIRCC)
anyway, tv movies etc make shooting look really easy. Its not, its not HARD, but it does require at least some concentration and effort. I guess its akin to in tv and movies, all the shots in basketball games go in (hell, even in NBA games, when they frequently miss, those shots that go in look awful easy)
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47768]
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Fri, 27 April 2001 19:18
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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previously I was questioning burst penalties, but now I have them pretty well hammered out, here is how they break down in JA2
first shot is normal, second is reduced by the burst penalty, third by twice the burst penalty, etc
ex 90 mrk, weapon has Burst penalty of 5
fist 90
second 85 (90-5)
thrid 80 (90-5-5)
fourth 75 (90-5-5-5)
machine pistols -15 per shot
SMGs -8 per shot, except type 85 which is -11 per shot
assualt rifles -8 per shot except AKM which is 11 (yes same as for SMGs, the russian stuff is crap)
battle rifles -11 per shot for all
LMGs -5 for Minimi, -7 for all others
Here is how I am going to do them
Shorter barrels make BPs worse
Higher RPMs make BPs worse
lighter guns make BPs worse
pistol caliber guns have less BPs
Battle Rifle calibers have greater BPs
(of course battle rifles also have great weight, and pistol caliber smgs are light for the most part)
and then things like eronomics, etc.
machine pistols are going to be brutal to control, but i will introduce a new weapon accessory, the shoulder stock, which will cut the bps in half for machine pistols (only) making them in effect very small SMGs.
machine pistol without stock 18-30
machine pistol with stock 9-15
battle rifles and rifle caliber SMGs will be around 7-11
assault rifles will be around 5-9
smgs will be around 4-10 (4 for heaviest, 10 for very very light)
LMGs will be quite controlable when used as they were intended, prone with a bipod (same as assualt rifle or battle rifle (depending on caliber) or a little worse) firing a LMG when in a stance other than prone will double the BPs
anyway, I hope to get the Machine Pistols out tomorrow
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"Are any reasonings valid or not? If they answer no, then their own doctrine, being reached by reason, fall to the ground. If they answer yes, then they will have to examine your arguments and refute them on their merits, for if some reasoning is valid, your bit may be one of the valid bits of reasoning..." Lewis
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47769]
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Sat, 28 April 2001 13:17
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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machine pistols
These could all be set to use the standard double stack 15 round magazine, or JA3 could introduce a 20 round MP magazine, i think 15 rounders would be best
All guns here are 9mm, damage is 22
Beretta 93R
range 14, AP first shot 7, second 5,
APs to burst +4 Rounds in burst 5 Burst penalty -30
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 1.1 kg, double stack mags,
Glock 18
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 6,
APs to burst +4 Rounds in burst 3 Burst penalty -30
aps to reload 5, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 0.7 kg, double stack mags, Will not accept shoulder stock
Mauser M712
range 12, AP first shot 9, second 7,
APs to burst +5 Rounds in burst 3 Burst penalty -28
aps to reload 7, durability 6, prestige:med-low
weight 1.4 kg, double stack mags,
Micro-Uzi
range 18, AP first shot 6, second 5,
APs to burst +4 Rounds in burst 5 Burst penalty -24
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 1.9 kg, double stack mags, Comes with shoulderstock.
(like how you always find the dragnov with a scope)
Note on all, the durability compared to standard pistol varieties is decreased, burst fire is hard on guns.
Obvioulsly, burst penalties are very very harsh here. Most are only controlable with a shoulder stock, and even then you have to aim at the targets crotch to keep most of the burst on the torso/head, as the gun is pulled up with recoil of last shot when the next is being shot out the barrel (you'll end up pointing at the celling...)
The first bit of text is what game players will see, the second is my explination of the numbers
Beretta 93R
When you need a lot of firepower in an enclosed space, this is the gun for you! Favored by bodyguars as it is easy to conceal and works best at point blank ranges. Incorporates a fold down peg in front of the trigger for second hand, as well a muzzle break to give some controlability.
range 14, AP first shot 7, second 5,
APs to burst +4 Rounds in burst 3 Burst penalty -26
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 1.1 kg, double stack mags,
If you are going to have a chance with this, you need the shoulder stock attached, making it a reasonable BP of -13. It is restricted to 3 rounds, helping in control, the fore-grip also contributes to control, as does the muzzle break. These also contribute to its slightly increased range.
Body guards do like it due to compact nature, and that they normally fire at targets within 10 yards of themselves, or else works great for suppresive fire. Follows the stats of existing beretta pistols, burst penalty tied for highest as it is a very light gun
Glock 18
For the glock fans, a pocket sized machine gun! Very light weight for easy carry when you can't take anything bigger, plus the full auto factor will suprise the hell out of the opposition! Does not accept shoulder stocks
range 12, AP first shot 7, second 6,
APs to burst +4 Rounds in burst 5 Burst penalty -30
aps to reload 5, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 0.7 kg, double stack mags, Will not accept shoulder stock
The Glock is just to light and has no other extra options like the beretta for controlability. It does, however, work fine as a standard pistol, so if you are going to carry a pistol, what does it hurt to have full auto. Great use for when you turn the corner and there is the enemy! When you need full auto, you need a lot of it. reason it cannot take the stock? there are no variants that have a shoulder stock, while all others do have shoulderstock options.
Mauser M712
Many countires, most notably Spain began making full auto copies of the Mauser before the Germans began themselves. An old and well recoginized design, it has been favored by revolting peasants and communitst.
range 12, AP first shot 8, second 7,
APs to burst +5 Rounds in burst 4 Burst penalty -28
aps to reload 8, durability 6, prestige:med-low
weight 1.4 kg, double stack mags,
It has reduced durablitlity and prestige as it is an old design and not a terribly great one. Standard pistol range, slow aps to fire due to poor trigger, also less gain for second shot due to being a single action. Its greater weight help control the burst. Slow reload using a stripperclip from the top
Micro-Uzi
This is either the lightest, must uncontrollable SMG or else the heaviest, easiest to control machine Pistol. Its a very scaled down version of the world famous Uzi
range 18, AP first shot 6, second 5,
APs to burst +4 Rounds in burst 5 Burst penalty -24
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 1.9 kg, double stack mags, Comes with shoulderstock.
as mentioned before, this is in the middle ground between smg and mp. For this reason it has longer range than most, and a lower burst penalty. It fires a lot of rounds in a burst as the smaller a gun is, the smaller its bolt, which means lighter, making it have a higher rounds-per-minute. Fold out the shoulder stock and it will make a decent SMG. Low APs as it is a fast handling little gun, with good balance all around
[This message has been edited by Akodo Deathseeker (edited 29 April 2001).]
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47772]
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Sun, 29 April 2001 18:32
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Sub Machine Guns!
9mm SMGs magazines hold 30, damage is 24
Beretta 12S
range 22, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to burst +3, rounds in burst 4, burst penalty -6
aps to reload 6, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 3.0 kg,
H&K MP5
range 22, AP first shot 5, second 3,
aps to burst +3, rounds in burst 3, burst penalty -5
aps to reload 6, durability 9, prestige:high
weight 2.5 kg, +5 marksmanship bonus
H&K MP5K
range 20, AP first shot 4, second 3,
aps to burst +3, rounds in burst 3, burst penalty -8
aps to reload 6, durability 9, prestige:high
weight 2.1 kg,
Uzi
range 22, AP first shot 6, second 5,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 3, burst penalty -5
aps to reload 4, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 3.7 kg,
Mini-Uzi
range 22, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 5, burst penalty -7
aps to reload 4, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 2.7 kg,
Cobray M11
range 20, AP first shot 6, second 5,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 5, burst penalty -9
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 2.8 kg, allows single handed firing
Teck-9
range 16, AP first shot 8, second 5,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 6, burst penalty -11
aps to reload 8, durability 3, prestige:med
weight 2.1 kg, inaccurate penalty -3
9mm Colt
range 24, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 4, burst penalty -4
aps to reload 3, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 2.6 kg,
AUG 9 para
range 24, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to burst+2, rounds in burst 3 burst penalty -3
aps to reload 6, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 3.3 kg,
now, following my pattern, I will repeat the same info, including text that will appear with the gun, as well as an explination of why I think the numbers are this way,
Beretta 12S
A good, well rounded SMG incorporating the characteristic handguard on the for-end. A natural pointing gun. Not as flashy as some Teutonic weapons, this gets the job done at half the price
range 22, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to burst +3, rounds in burst 4, burst penalty -6
aps to reload 6, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 3.0 kg,
All in all a well balanced gun, aps are pretty standard for a fast handling SMG. Front handguard not that great unless you are hip-firing. It has a very low ROF (550 rmp) and is relatively heavy -meaning recoil control, but the collapsible shoulder stock is pretty flimsey. OK rep for durablility. All in all a good gun, the standard SMG
H&K MP5
Reknowned as king of the sub-guns. An excellent piece of workmanip, this SMG is favored by many militaries and police, including FBI's elite hostage rescue team and the navy SEALs.
range 22, AP first shot 5, second 3,
aps to burst +3, rounds in burst 3, burst penalty -5
aps to reload 6, durability 9, prestige:high
weight 2.5 kg, +5 marksmanship bonus
Fast handling, better second shot rate than beretta due to good handling and balance, plus its fixed stock allows for good steady followups, more control to prevent the gun from recoiling as far off target. Has a reputation for great accuracy, hence the bonus. Reload speed not above normal, as H&K doesn't think bold hold-open is necessary. Little on the light side, but good shoulder stock, medim ROF (800 rpm), excelent design, and 3 round restriction setting makes this smg slightly more controlable than the beretta. Durable Durable Durable
H&K MP5K
Cut down compact version of the MP5, with folding shoulder stock for easy concealablity and handy getting in an out of vehicles. Standard issue is 20 round mag, but it is happier with its big brothers 30 rounders.
range 20, AP first shot 4, second 3,
aps to burst +3, rounds in burst 3, burst penalty -8
aps to reload 6, durability 9, prestige:high
weight 2.1 kg,
same basic pattern as mp5, faster handling for first shot (more compact means it swings up and around fast) burst is harsher, as a ligher gun it has the double curse of more kick per shot, and the shots coming out faster, higher ROF (900 rpm)
Uzi
Venerable Israeli design, it had its hayday in the early 80's but has been eclipsed, at least in hollywood. Still commonly found in the hands of guards and paramilitary police in the third world because it is still a basically solid gun.
range 22, AP first shot 6, second 5,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 3, burst penalty -5
aps to reload 4, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 3.7 kg,
Very heavy for a SMG, plus a fixed shoulder stock and low ROF mean good control, but that weight means it doesn't handle as quick. The magazine being in the pistol-grip gives it good balance and a natural feel to reloading. Passible durablility, but not super.
Mini-Uzi
This is a scaled down version of the original uzi, making it more in line with the SMGs of the rest of the world. An excellent gun as a result, maintianing contolablitiy and performance in a smaller package.
range 22, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 5, burst penalty -7
aps to reload 4, durability 6, prestige:med
weight 2.7 kg,
while a "mini" still same size as most other SMGs, what went for the uzi goes here, but less weight and higher ROF mean less controlablility. Faster on target however.
Cobray M11
This blocky chunk of steel will never win any beauty awards, it is still a comfort in the hands. The cobray is a reintroduction of the ingrams in 9mm. Superb balance allows for the weapon to be fired with a single hand if necessary.
range 20, AP first shot 6, second 5,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 5, burst penalty -9
aps to reload 5, durability 7, prestige:med
weight 2.8 kg, allows single handed firing
reduced range for this little chunk, it doesn't have much barrel at all or great sights. Still, its heavy and balances extremely well, so it is able to handle a higher ROF than other SMGs. Not top of the line, but still a good weapon.
Teck-9
First choice of American Gang-bangers, especially those on a budget. It'll put out a stream of bullets and has better range potential than a pistol, when it isn't jammed that is.
range 16, AP first shot 8, second 5,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 6, burst penalty -11
aps to reload 8, durability 3, prestige:med
weight 2.1 kg, inaccurate penalty -3
a quite horrid design that is dirt cheap H&Ks go for 2 thousand US dollars, this goes for 2 hundred. Very unreliable. Light weight and high ROF (ligher internal peices because they are cheaper) make it hard to control, and its design doesn't help either. Still, preferable to a pistol, as long as you can pull out that pistol when it jams. Looks sexy, or at least looks pretty decent to those unfamilar so it gets a med on prestige
9mm Colt
Conversion of the M-16 or C-7 assault rifle in a shorter version. It is designed to be familiar to the user who cannot use his 5.56 due to overpenetration risks.
range 24, AP first shot 5, second 4,
aps to burst +4, rounds in burst 4, burst penalty -4
aps to reload 3, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 2.6 kg,
the AR design has very very fast reload potential. The rifle styling, sights and configuration, plus the most solid collapsing stock on the market give it a slighty greater range than most smgs. Still, pretty light and a medium ROF means its contolable, but not outstanding.
AUG 9 para
The AUG is a very modular design, this one has been converted to 9mm and has the shortest barrel option. Apparently its previous owner was worried about overpenetratoin. Maybe he should have worried about cover.
range 24, AP first shot 7, second 6,
aps to burst+2, rounds in burst 3 burst penalty -3
aps to reload 6, durability 8, prestige:med
weight 3.3 kg,
agian, rifle characteristics mean better range. Higher aps for shots as the AUG trigger is tricky. Pull a little bit and it shoots once, pull a little farther and it shoots a burst, hence the aps to burst are quite low. The bullpup config combined with using an off size magazine means it reloads slow. Very controlable burst due to heavy on the butt, solid, ergronomic design and weight (its made to control more powerfull rounds after all)
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"Are any reasonings valid or not? If they answer no, then their own doctrine, being reached by reason, fall to the ground. If they answer yes, then they will have to examine your arguments and refute them on their merits, for if some reasoning is valid, your bit may be one of the valid bits of reasoning..." Lewis
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Sergeant
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47773]
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Tue, 01 May 2001 04:32
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| Chris Camfield |
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Messages:68
Registered:February 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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Quote:Originally posted by Akodo Deathseeker:
If you look at a gun in your inventory, it will give the range in squares (as in the beretta is 12) If you look at the gun at billy rays, it gives its range as 10x squares and gives its unit of measurement as yards (so the beretta is 120 yards)
Yeah, well, the relationship between the range in tiles (e.g. 12) and the real effective range of the weapon is a bit more varied than that. I doubt a Beretta has a real effective range of 120 yards; it's probably more like 50.
However, we were working with a limit on sighting distance, wanted to have variety in the range values for weapons, yet didn't want to make pistols completely useless in the game.
If we'd taken real effective ranges and divided them by 10, pistols would have had an effective range around 5, and they would have been even less useful than they were.
Sabre is right in that a tile is about a yard or a meter. I mean, the doors of the buildings aren't 10 yards across!
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Corporal
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| Re: If I was designing weapons in JA3[message #47774]
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Tue, 01 May 2001 16:54
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| Akodo Deathseeker |
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Messages:104
Registered:March 2001
Location: St Paul, MN |
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Quote:Originally posted by Chris Camfield:
Yeah, well, the relationship between the range in tiles (e.g. 12) and the real effective range of the weapon is a bit more varied than that. I doubt a Beretta has a real effective range of 120 yards; it's probably more like 50.
However, we were working with a limit on sighting distance, wanted to have variety in the range values for weapons, yet didn't want to make pistols completely useless in the game.
If we'd taken real effective ranges and divided them by 10, pistols would have had an effective range around 5, and they would have been even less useful than they were.
Sabre is right in that a tile is about a yard or a meter. I mean, the doors of the buildings aren't 10 yards across!
as you will see in the shotgun discussion, I agree that ranges as listed for weapons in JA2 are quite screwy. The berretta is listed with a range of 120 yards, or 12 squares, the conclusion that 1 square = 10yards is inevitable. Like I said before, that is why I am expressing ranges in squares not in yards (because I would put pistols at 25 yards) I originally thought each tile would work better as 5 yards, but even that does not work well. 5 feet per square? building dimensions work, as to pistol ranges but rifle ranges are too short (40 yards for mini-14, 125 for dragunv)
I think the best way to conceptualize the distance squares represent as an exponential scale, with those close by being 2 yards per square, 15 squares farther out, squares are 5 yards, and beyond that 10 yards, etc.
anyway, in my weapons I am showing ranges in squares, and while gun X in RL may have twice the range as gun Y, it may not show exactly that same ratio in squares. I am trying to express the greater range, but still leave the lower catagories useful.
anyways, remember the basic rules of gunfights
RULE NUMBER ONE: always bring a gun to a gunfight
RULE NUMBER TWO: make sure that gun is a shoulderweapon.
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