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Sighting Range[message #100930] Fri, 26 March 2004 02:24 Go to next message
Eddy Baby

 
Messages:5
Registered:March 2004
Location: England, God's Own Countr...
Since my understanding of the source code doesn't go much beyond the meaning of some variables, I'm not sure what to do about this idea - but I'm interested in increasing the JA2 sighting range, possibly even to realistic levels (you still can't see people in cover, but anyone standing in the middle of the road in broad daylight can still be seen from 50 squares away).

Could anyone give me an idea of what needs to be done to achieve something like this, and where to do it?
Re: Sighting Range[message #100931] Sat, 27 March 2004 07:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Digicrab

 
Messages:254
Registered:December 2003

In .\Tactical\Overhead Types.h there is this:

#define STRAIGHT_RANGE	13
Change 13 to whatever you want.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100932] Tue, 30 March 2004 06:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KIA

 
Messages:93
Registered:November 2002
Location: Virginia (USA)
Does that mean that you could implement items like opera glasses, binoculars, field glasses, and sniper scopes which could increase the STRAIGHT_RANGE by +10, +20, +30, and +40 respectively? Or would that require recoding to something like BASE_STRAIGHT_RANGE and FINAL_STRAIGHT_RANGE? (Edit) I imagine the sun goggles already work this way, so there's already some mechanism for implementing the idea...
Re: Sighting Range[message #100933] Tue, 30 March 2004 11:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Digicrab

 
Messages:254
Registered:December 2003

I plan to have items that give +to bonuses similar to DnD and such. This will make the system more general, whereas now it's mostly hardcoded. When I'm done you'll be able to create new items without touching the source.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100934] Tue, 30 March 2004 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Chris Camfield

 
Messages:63
Registered:February 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Quote:
Originally posted by KIA:
Does that mean that you could implement items like opera glasses, binoculars, field glasses, and sniper scopes which could increase the STRAIGHT_RANGE by +10, +20, +30, and +40 respectively? Or would that require recoding to something like BASE_STRAIGHT_RANGE and FINAL_STRAIGHT_RANGE? (Edit) I imagine the sun goggles already work this way, so there's already some mechanism for implementing the idea...
IMO you'd have to do a bit more coding than that. When sight is checked, the maximum is calculated and then reduced according to the angle between the viewer's facing and the direction to the other character. If you just change the maximum sighting distance for people using such items, then they will magically have better vision in 360 degrees, instead of just whereever they are actually looking.

(Also, should they be effective at night, if they don't include NV capability?)
Re: Sighting Range[message #100935] Tue, 30 March 2004 14:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dextertt

 
Messages:56
Registered:November 2000
Eddy,

I hope you can increase the sighting range to "realistic" distance because the way it is now, all the weapon ranges are at very odd proportions. 50 or more should be better. That would make for very exciting distance stand off.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100936] Tue, 30 March 2004 15:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Digicrab

 
Messages:254
Registered:December 2003

I think increasing the sighing range by itself is not the way to go. What has to be done is a complete redesign of the weapon dynamics.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100937] Tue, 30 March 2004 16:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dextertt

 
Messages:56
Registered:November 2000
Hi Digicrab,

The problem I see with the current sighting range is that who get to shoot first gets the upper edge. This is due to the unrealistic sighting range. By having a longer sighting range, the first shot is not important but using cover and flank maneuver to close with the enemy are more important. And also having the longer ranges the differences between weapon classes: pistols, smg, rifles, and sniper rifles are more noticeable. Each will have their proper usage based on the situation.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100938] Wed, 31 March 2004 05:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KIA

 
Messages:93
Registered:November 2002
Location: Virginia (USA)
It sounds like we're talking about revamping cover and concealment rules for more "realistic" spotting. (Please note these terms are different. Concealment makes it harder to spot you, but won't stop a bullet. No kevlar bushes here! Cover not only limits vision but stops shots.) According to Chris (Thanks, Chris!) the angle of view is factored in (good) and I imagine that the stance (standing, crouching, prone) fits in too, probably some sort of target "visibility" or "profile" calc. This would also allow things like grass, low walls, brush and scrub, etc. to add to concealment (not cover) or lower the visibility/profile. How does that tie in to camo kits and ghille suits? They should also decrease visibility / profile. Interesting problems, these. Let's proceed cautiously. Don't break the game!
Re: Sighting Range[message #100939] Wed, 31 March 2004 06:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eddy Baby

 
Messages:5
Registered:March 2004
Location: England, God's Own Countr...
I'm going to play with range a bit, but I'm not sure whether I should be using realistic effective ranges. The M4 (hands up everyone who never considered that the Commando would make a nice M4), for instance, is stated accurate at 600m, or 60 tiles in the somewhat-suspicious 10m+1 tile calc, possibly now obsolete. For the purposes of balance it might be wise to limit extreme-range shots to sniper rifles, or something. I'll let you know.

My tuppence on visibility:

I think visibility should be unlimited in the daytime, but, as said above, with some heavy-duty occlusion work. The further away the enemy, the more exposed he must be to be seen, for instance. The more alerted the enemy the harder he is to spot. Items such as binoculars could be implemented, and the sun goggles changed, not to increase view distance but to reduce the occlusion effect at range (easier to pick out a soldier with a magnified view).

The combat dynamics are of course an issue, designed as they are for (comparitively) close ranges. Will our characters be ridiculously inaccurate over long distances? How will the AI react?

I'll give it a test or two.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100940] Thu, 01 April 2004 17:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sooner

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2004
Location: Broken Arrow, OK
One thing I would keep in mind on visibility is having to spend more time in turn based mode. While I agree, the fact that I can't see more the 15 squares in broad daylight on main street has always puzzled me. On the other hand, if I am visible or the enemy is from all the way across the map, then that means we are in TB mode the entire map, which will slow things down a lot.

Also keep in mind shooting through windows with longer visibilty will mean more casualties (both you and the enemy). Imagine trying to cross what you think is a safe street only to find out there is a guy 300 yards away with one of those Baretta sniper pistols;)
Re: Sighting Range[message #100941] Thu, 01 April 2004 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1830
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Speaking in terms of game balance, I think increasing the range could be catastrophic if not balanced with perhaps greater possibilities for cover. Let's remember, Ja2 uses maps that are on a pretty small scale in terms of realistic gun ranges. With this in mind some provision must be made to make each map playable. Otherwise you would be hitting targets four maps away and being hit from those same distances. I don't have to say how aggrevating that would be.
I heard some of you talking about expanding the size of the maps and that offers a lot of promise to the solution. But keep in mind these maps are flat, flatter than anywhere on earth so if you want realistic gun range remember there are no hills to obstruct you're trajectory and this gives guns an unrealistic advantage.
If you could rework the maps so they are large enough to support the longer ranges and add elevation to balance out the unfair advantage these ranges would give only then would any tweaking of gun range be balanced enough not to turn this game into a turkey shoot.
Would be fantastic to see these things happen.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100942] Thu, 01 April 2004 19:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlackHand

 
Messages:20
Registered:March 2004
Location: Germany

Good point Khor. Increasing sight ranges does make sniper rifles (or any long range weapon) much more powerful, with the exception of night-ops and heavy obstacle-terrain. So this has definitely to be balanced out, although on the other and you can't use sniper rifles to their full potential atm. At least not without a spotter.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100943] Thu, 01 April 2004 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sahtor
Messages:3
Registered:March 2004
Location: Finland
You could always give extra bonuses for prone and crouching stands. I'd say prone is 3 times more harder to detect than a standing enemy.

I don't see any problem in more realistic sighting. Maybe you'd have to make the enemy use cover more to balance it out.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100944] Sat, 03 April 2004 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KIA

 
Messages:93
Registered:November 2002
Location: Virginia (USA)
Extended sight ranges -would- make stealth, camo, cover, and crawling MUCH more important. Yes, the game would change, but if effective ranges (i.e. no "sniper" pistols) and maybe enemy skills (no cross-map headshots with pistols) are adjusted as well, it should be interesting.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100945] Sat, 03 April 2004 09:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dextertt

 
Messages:56
Registered:November 2000
Kia,

Those are good points you said. I too have a lot of problem with "sniper" pistols in the game. To counter balance longer sighting range and sniper rifles:

1. increase the ap cost of sniper rifle so the first shoot has very small chance of hitting.
2. may be a Sniper Skill Trait is required to fire sniper class weapons or else a massive accuracy penalty and increased ap.
3. limit the availability of sniper class weapons in the game.

Again, combat is more fun when you get to use cover and flank manuevers to close with the enemy and take them out with grenades.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100946] Sun, 04 April 2004 18:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tox

 
Messages:249
Registered:February 2000
Location: www.webcodesign.de
you want more realistic sighing ranges?
render the whole person animations about half their size and it seems to fit again Razz

I for one think that JA2's sighting ranges are pretty well done since I wanna see my merc and the offender on the same screen without having to scroll all the time. if you change the sighting range to fit realistic values you'll turn the whole game upside down.
aww yeah, if you want the sighting range realistic you might wanna change the size of buildings, tanks etc as well, have fun...

JA2STI Creator
Re: Sighting Range[message #100947] Sun, 04 April 2004 21:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1830
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Well said. I would still like to see elevations introduced into the engine for a variety of reasons. Not the least of which is the ability to have multi story buildings.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100948] Sat, 24 April 2004 02:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CoffeeJunkie

 
Messages:12
Registered:April 2004
Location: Suomi Finland PRKL
1. Mercs should be able to draw weapons (with appropriate AP cost if in TB mode).

2. Those mercs (if and only using sniper scope) should have highly increased sighting range (and decreased sighting to surroundings making detecting of enemies approaching from sides more difficult)

3. Binoculars in the future versions of JA?!?
Re: Sighting Range[message #100949] Sat, 24 April 2004 03:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lanfear

 
Messages:47
Registered:April 2004
Location: The Netherlands

to be quite honest i doubt a sniper scope would be the tool of choice for locating enemies if you have no other indications of where they might be. in a way the game already reflects this, by allowing you to shoot enemies you're not actually seeing, but who have been spotted by someone else.

binoculars would make a lot of sense though, and if all is well the modifications being made to the game *should* allow modders to add such items to the game.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100950] Sun, 25 April 2004 03:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
qL67o0j7

 
Messages:181
Registered:March 2004
There are functional monoculars in UC, so it's definitely an easy thing to add...

If you change the game's resolution to 1024x768 (no big problem since todays CPUs won't even notice the performance hit), you should IMHO be able to increase all ranges to something more realistic, while keeping shooter and victim inside the same screen (no scrolling needed).
Re: Sighting Range[message #100951] Sun, 25 April 2004 03:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1830
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
How small then would the Avatars be? You could concievably have them as small as Age of Empires dudes but searching rooms and identifying openable drawers could border on nightmareish.
Besides, bringing gun ranges into the truly realistic perspective would require Age of Empires graphics on 32 inch monitors and still wouldn't cover the range of an expert marksman with a scoped Barret .50.
One of my original Wish List requests concerned realistic gun ranges. The folks here quickly set me straight. While I'm always for realism in game mechanics, playability must also figure very high in anyones list of priorities. I think reducing the size of Avatars susbstantially to reflect more realistic gun ranges would rob something from the rest of the game. Besides, it would further increase the difficulty in designing animations that portrayed the exact weaponry and armour characters wear. I'd much rather see this done than a half baked attempt at increasing range.
Perhaps a feature to zoom in or out might offer some solution but I think this one is a pretty big fish to fry.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100952] Sun, 25 April 2004 04:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lanfear

 
Messages:47
Registered:April 2004
Location: The Netherlands

increasing the resolution to 1024*768 would effectively increase the size of the viewscreen by 2*2, so distances would roughly double, and all objects would be about half their normal size. however, the level of detail would remain the same, just with a lot small pixels...
Re: Sighting Range[message #100953] Sun, 25 April 2004 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1830
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Again, I'd be for it if there were a zoom in zoom out feature.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100954] Sun, 25 April 2004 20:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
qL67o0j7

 
Messages:181
Registered:March 2004
Quote:
Originally posted by Khor1255:
searching rooms and identifying openable drawers could border on nightmareish.
True, I didn't think about that... Surprised

Quote:
Besides, bringing gun ranges into the truly realistic perspective would require Age of Empires graphics on 32 inch monitors and still wouldn't cover the range of an expert marksman with a scoped Barret .50.
Yes, of course, if you want to implement 2 km ranges, your mercs will have pixel-size Very Happy .
No, I was just suggesting to double the resolution (easy to do), and increase the ranges accordingly (= double the existing rifle values. Easy to do, too). I agree it's just a quick & dirty solution, but it has the advantage that it takes near to nothing to code that. You could have that tomorrow.

Quote:
Besides, it would further increase the difficulty in designing animations that portrayed the exact weaponry and armour characters wear. I'd much rather see this done than a half baked attempt at increasing range.
Depending on what we're talking about: My solution is just a quick hack to the existing JA2 code. Having animations portraying the exact equipment would be a very heavy modification of the graphics engine, which would take some time.

Quote:
Perhaps a feature to zoom in or out might offer some solution but I think this one is a pretty big fish to fry.
That would be ideal indeed.

Problem is only the people actually working on the code know what they can do with it witout spending half a dozen years doing it. We always can fantasize about things we would like, but it's only them who can actually tell what they plan on doing. And they seem to have deserted the forum. Let's hope they're working... Very Happy
Re: Sighting Range[message #100955] Mon, 26 April 2004 04:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255

 
Messages:1830
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Absolutely. This is my busy season at work, otherwise I'd be still trying to learn C. All I can do now is crank out a map or two with the Beta Editor every week.
That's not really advancing anything but I dig mods.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100956] Mon, 03 May 2004 07:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PsyckoSama

 
Messages:11
Registered:April 2004
Quote:

Those are good points you said. I too have a lot of problem with "sniper" pistols in the game. To counter balance longer sighting range and sniper rifles:
Quote:
1. increase the ap cost of sniper rifle so the first shoot has very small chance of hitting.
With snipers the attitude is that the first shot is kill shot. Bad idea.

Quote:
2. may be a Sniper Skill Trait is required to fire sniper class weapons or else a massive accuracy penalty and increased ap.
Also a bad idea... at those kinds of ranges I'd just require a very high marks

Quote:
3. limit the availability of sniper class weapons in the game.
now your making some sense, but the diffrence between a sniper weapon and a normal rifle, except with the exception of afew specialty rifles (Dragnov, PSG1, Barret, ect) have been taking an accurate standard long arm or even hunting rifle design then adding a scope and bipod.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100957] Mon, 03 May 2004 08:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Drakkcon

 
Messages:21
Registered:August 2003
Location: USA

I believe Soldiers At War had all of the features that you guys want. Of course the game was buggy, boring, and little RPG development - but it had 8 levels (two per story), long ranges, 3 zoom levels, and a built in hit calculator too.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100958] Mon, 03 May 2004 09:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snap

 
Messages:286
Registered:September 2000
Location: USA (by way of the Old Wo...
Quote:
Originally posted by Kurt:
No, I was just suggesting to double the resolution (easy to do), and increase the ranges accordingly (= double the existing rifle values. Easy to do, too). I agree it's just a quick & dirty solution, but it has the advantage that it takes near to nothing to code that. You could have that tomorrow.
Ahem. You might be surprised to learn that it's not quite as easy as you think it is.

But if someone does pull off a 2x resolution increase, implementing zoom should not be too difficult: using the same graphics, simply blow up every pixel into a 2x2 square - the result will look pretty much like the present JA2.
Re: Sighting Range[message #100959] Wed, 05 May 2004 03:26 Go to previous message
qL67o0j7

 
Messages:181
Registered:March 2004
pythagoras of the Whitehat team was writing resolution increase is possible , he managed to get 800x600.
Quote:
So, for now it seems as if a resolution change is not something too complex, which is quite promising.
Of course "is not too complex" can mean anything...

And you'll have to change the standard map size too, else you won't gain anything, except the urge to reach for a magnifying glass.
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