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Lock toughness[message #101060] Sun, 11 April 2004 04:41 Go to next message
Wodan

 
Messages:542
Registered:December 2001
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Hi there, Source Gods,

I am writing a manual for The JA2-beta editor, and reached the "placing locks" section.
Now I know JA2 used 39 differnt kind of locks, but in the editor the lock options are:
lock ID - determining the type and toughness
trap type - you know, electrical, explosive,...
trap level - 1 to 20.

I am looking for the toughness of those 39 different kinds of locks, and kinda hoping one of you could find that kind of stuff in the exe.(Hoping that kind of info isn't only to be found in the German beta exe).

Also, those locks can be trapped, with a trap toughness from 1 to 20. If someone could find the skill needed (or force or whatever) to define the chance to open a lock by force or by lockpicking, I'd be most grateful.
(I would like to be able to say: at level x, an average merc can untrap the crate. Or at level x, noone but Trevor can lockpick that door)

Anyway, if you could find a reference or something to one of these issues, that 'd be great.
Here are the lock ID's used in Ja2,
They each have a specific toughness:

0 crate key (?)
1 tough crate
2 Queen
Re: Lock toughness[message #101061] Sun, 11 April 2004 05:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rla

 
Messages:6
Registered:April 2004
Location: Finland
Hi,

binarydata.slf contains locks.bin file, from which the following dump is:

+------------------------------------------+-------+-----+-----+-----+
|                              editor name |   key | typ | pic | sma |
+------------------------------------------+-------+-----+-----+-----+
|                                Crate key |     0 |   0 |  10 |  25 |
|                              Tough crate |     0 |   0 |  15 |  56 |
|                   Queen's basement metal |     4 |   0 |  75 | 100 |
|                              Cheap house |     2 |   0 |  17 |  45 |
|                                    house |     3 |   0 |  24 |  58 |
|                               Metal door |     4 |   0 |  50 |  80 |
|                                  padlock |     5 |   1 |  30 |  75 |
|                           Avg Electronic |     6 |   2 |  40 |  70 |
|                         Queen's basement |     6 |   2 |  80 |  80 |
|                              pass Normal |     7 |   3 |  50 |  74 |
|                               pass tough |     7 |   3 |  75 |  80 |
|                         Passcard Orta K4 |     7 |   3 | 254 | 254 |
|                        Brothel Back Door |     2 |   0 |  65 |  65 |
|                               Tixa Cells |     1 |   0 |  60 | 120 |
|                              solid house |     3 |   0 |  36 |  75 |
|                                ACA Cells |     1 |   0 |  30 |  70 |
|                           San Mona Hotel |     3 |   0 |  32 |  68 |
|                         Very Tough crate |     0 |   0 |  36 |  74 |
|                               Alma cells |     1 |   0 |  65 |  95 |
|                          Warden's office |     4 |   0 |  55 |  80 |
|                          Alma metal door |     4 |   0 |  75 |  95 |
|                         Alma garage door |     4 |   0 |  40 |  76 |
|                           Arena entrance |     3 |   0 |  85 |  95 |
|                         Arena guardrooms |     3 |   0 |  20 |  50 |
|                          Tixa Metal door |     4 |   0 |  38 |  80 |
|                            Orta basement |     6 |   2 | 254 | 254 |
|                        Orta control door |     4 |   0 |  75 | 120 |
|                         Orta pass Ernest |     7 |   3 |  75 |  80 |
|                            San Mona Desk |     0 |   0 |  55 | 110 |
|                        Medical warehouse |     4 |   0 |  60 | 120 |
|                       Delivery warehouse |     3 |   0 |  50 | 120 |
|                           Shooting range |     7 |   3 |  60 | 120 |
|                            Doreens Stash |     4 |   0 |  50 | 120 |
|                     Grumm Nmap warehouse |     4 |   0 |  90 | 120 |
|                      Grumm Smap ACAstash |     5 |   1 |  80 | 120 |
|                      Meduna Air barracks |     6 |   2 |  90 | 120 |
|                       Meduna Sam lockers |     5 |   1 |  80 |  89 |
|                              Palace Door |     4 |   0 |  85 | 120 |
|                              Hicks crate |     0 |   0 |  25 |  56 |
|                          Alma Metal door |     4 |   0 |  55 |  90 |
|                                Unused 40 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 41 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 42 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 43 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 44 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 45 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 46 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 47 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 48 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 49 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 50 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 51 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 52 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 53 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 54 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 55 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 56 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 57 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 58 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 59 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 60 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 61 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 62 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
|                                Unused 63 |     0 |   0 |   0 |   0 |
+------------------------------------------+-------+-----+-----+-----+

key = key id #, typ = lock type, pic = picking difficulty, sma = smashing difficulty
Re: Lock toughness[message #101062] Sun, 11 April 2004 05:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rla

 
Messages:6
Registered:April 2004
Location: Finland
For the skill check;

lockpick or electronic lockpick:

1. skill = soldiers mechanical skill plus possible modifiers from being drunk.
2. multiply skill with (wisdom + 100) / 200.
3. multiply skill with (dexerity + 100) / 200.
4. add to skill explevel * 3.
5. if soldier has lockpicking trait, then add to skill 25 * number_of_traits.
6. if the lock is electronic and the soldier doesn't have electornics trait, divide the skill by 2.
7. multiply skill with (locksmithkit's status / 100).

for crowbar smashing:

1. skill = soldier's strength + 20.

for normal smashing:

1. skill = soldier's strength.


if soldier has fatigue, the skill gets penalty.

chance = skill - picking/smashing difficulty
if chance < 30, fail

add morale modifier to chance.

generate random number between 0 and 100 and
if chance is greater than this number, then
the action succeeded.
Re: Lock toughness[message #101063] Sun, 11 April 2004 05:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rla

 
Messages:6
Registered:April 2004
Location: Finland
for traps:

1. skill = explosive skill * 7
2. if the soldier doesn't have any explosive skill, fail.
3. add to skill dexerity * 2
4. add to skill explevel * 10
5. divide the skill by 10
6. substract from the skill (100 - wisdom) / 5

for electronic traps:

1. skill = mechanical * 7 or explosive * 7, whichever is higher.
2. if no skill, fail
3. add dexerity * 2
4. add explevel * 10
5. divide by 10
6. substract (100 - wisdom) / 5
7. if soldier doesn't have electornics trait, multiply by 3/4

- if fatigued, give penalty.
- chance = skill - traplevel * 7.
- add possible morale bonus
- generate random number and check like in lockpicking.
Re: Lock toughness[message #101064] Mon, 12 April 2004 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wodan

 
Messages:542
Registered:December 2001
Location: Antwerp, Belgium
Alrighty! Thanks!
Re: Lock toughness[message #101065] Wed, 28 April 2004 05:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LordDario

 
Messages:96
Registered:June 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Quote:
lockpick or electronic lockpick:

1. skill = soldiers mechanical skill plus possible modifiers from being drunk.
2. multiply skill with (wisdom + 100) / 200.
3. multiply skill with (dexerity + 100) / 200.
4. add to skill explevel * 3.
5. if soldier has lockpicking trait, then add to skill 25 * number_of_traits.
6. if the lock is electronic and the soldier doesn't have electornics trait, divide the skill by 2.
7. multiply skill with (locksmithkit's status / 100).

Interesting stuff. I need some help understanding where the ( ) belong in the above equation:

Comment on this example to help me out please Smile

1. skill = soldiers mechanical skill
= 100

2. multiply skill with (wisdom + 100) / 200.
= 100 x [(100 + 85) /200] OR = [100 x (185)] / 200. I think it is 100 x 185/200, which is 100 x .925 = 92.5

3. multiply skill with (dexerity + 100) / 200.
= 92.5 x 185/200 which is 92.5 x .925 = 85.5

4. add to skill explevel * 3.
= 85.5 + (9x3) = 85.5 + 27 = 112.5

5. if soldier has lockpicking trait, then add to skill 25 * number_of_traits.
= 112.5 + 25 (locksmith skill) = 137.5

6. if the lock is electronic and the soldier doesn't have electronics trait, divide the skill by 2. (merc is lockpicking/electronics)

7. multiply skill with (locksmithkit's status / 100).
status of kit is 100/100 = 1

So, merc skill in lockpicking/electronics with 100 lockpick and 85 wis and dex (no alcohol and 100% kit) is

137.5

This means this char can open ANY lock in the game, according to the list above, EXCEPT the two Orta doors which require 254 skill. THis kind of thing bugs me, and is my own fault for peeking into the guts of the game as it takes away from the rp.

Who in their right mind, now with this info, would even try to get higher than 90 in calculated skill? Given the table has only two locks requiring over 90 skill, and they both require 254, which is unreachable according to how I did the equation. There is no point, or so it seems, or is my math off or am I missing something?
Re: Lock toughness[message #101066] Wed, 28 April 2004 18:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lanfear

 
Messages:47
Registered:April 2004
Location: The Netherlands

Well, yes he can, and considering he has a mechanical skill of 100, and skill traits in both lockpicking and electronics, he damn well oughtta be able to too. I mean, this is a specialist lockpick if i've ever seen one...

Of course, what's to stop a modder from putting a couple of locked doors in a game that do indeed require, say, 130 or so. That way you'd either need a specialist like in the example above or some serious explosives.

Can you imagine the frustration among players if they have to call on skyrider to bring them some HMX so they can get to the potential loot behind that door?(not to mention the frustration when all they find is a worn-out MP5K Wink

Sirtech originally made the game relatively accessible to everyone. That means they can't just go and fill a campaign full of elite soldiers, impossible locks and vast minefields noone can detect, since players would run away screaming.

Those players that still stick with JA2 after all these years pretty much know the game inside out and we're looking for fresh new challenges, but even if a complete overhaul of JA2 is done, I still feel that at the lowest difficulty levels it should be accessible to pretty much anyone who feels like playing.
Re: Lock toughness[message #101067] Thu, 29 April 2004 01:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LordDario

 
Messages:96
Registered:June 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Ahh,

So modders can set the lock difficulty and are not limited to using the locks "as is" with the difficulty ratings given above?

Good news, if thats true. If its not, were still looking at 38 locks requiring 90 or less skill and two requiring 254, which is not good
Re: Lock toughness[message #101068] Thu, 29 April 2004 02:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
qL67o0j7

 
Messages:181
Registered:March 2004
No, just edit "locks.bin" inside "binarydata.slf" and put in your very own figures. The only limit is you just have 39 *different* lock types. But they can be of any picking/smashing value.
Re: Lock toughness[message #101069] Thu, 29 April 2004 05:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lanfear

 
Messages:47
Registered:April 2004
Location: The Netherlands

heck, we have the source now, we can do anything we want Very Happy
Re: Lock toughness[message #101070] Thu, 29 April 2004 08:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LordDario

 
Messages:96
Registered:June 2001
Location: Washington, DC
Man, I love this game!
Re: Lock toughness[message #101071] Fri, 30 April 2004 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Folkewulf

 
Messages:56
Registered:August 2003
Thats alot of info on locks, but I don't see what I'm looking for. So I'll ask.

What determines whether a lock can be shot? Does the damage of the weapon figure into it? The toughness of the lock? Wish I had the time to learn programing.

Thanks
Re: Lock toughness[message #101072] Sun, 02 May 2004 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
qL67o0j7

 
Messages:181
Registered:March 2004
The "Lock type" figure? Just guessing.
Re: Lock toughness[message #101073] Wed, 05 May 2004 05:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rla

 
Messages:6
Registered:April 2004
Location: Finland
(been a bit busy lately, so took time to reply..)

w.r.t. the Kurt's example:

"So, merc skill in lockpicking/electronics with 100 lockpick and 85 wis and dex (no alcohol and 100% kit) is

137.5"

yes.

Then the final steps are (I didn't mark them as 8. , 9., and such, so maybe you missed it ?):

8. "if soldier has fatigue, the skill gets penalty."

suppose no fatigue, so the skill is still 137.5.

9. "chance = skill - picking/smashing difficulty"

Take a lock from the binary data table, e.g.
"| Shooting range | 7 | 3 | 60 | 120 |"
Now the "pic" column or third number is picking difficulty (as we're picking here, not smashing).
So, if the lock is of type Shootin range, picking difficulty is 60.

Therefore: chance = skill - picking diff = 137.5 - 60 = 77.5

10. "if chance < 30, fail"

77.5 > 30, so doesn't fail. (this check is meant to prevent mercs with low lockpicking skills to 'accidently' succeed.)

11. "add morale modifier to chance."

Didn't check this out, but let's suppose it doesnt change anything.

12. "generate random number between 0 and 100 and
if chance is greater than this number, then
the action succeeded."

So now the chance is 77.5, or the merc has 77.5% chance of succeeding. (about 3 out of 4).

There was also some limit that if the final value was equal or over 100, it was limited to 99, so that there would always be a at least 1% possibility of failing.

(and yes, the steps 2. & 3. are meant as "skill = skill * [ (100 + wis/dex) / 200 ]", so that in the best case the skill is multiplied with 1.00)
Re: Lock toughness[message #101074] Wed, 05 May 2004 05:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rla

 
Messages:6
Registered:April 2004
Location: Finland
w.r.t. blowing / shooting:

Quick check showed that if merc tries to blow lock, (shaped charge?) the lock remembers damage it has taken. If the damage goes over the locks smashing value (last column in the binary table, e.g. 120 for shooting range), the lock is destroyed and the door is unlocked. When blowing, the lock damage is increased by shaped charge damage * 2.

Didn't find the info for shooting, but I would suppose that it is about the same.

Example: at shooting range, there is a brand new lock with zero damage (and 120 smashing value).

The merc shoots it and does e.g. 50 damage.
Now the lock has 50(/120) damage.

Next the merc uses shaped charge and does, say, 100 damage. Now the lock has 150(/120) damage, which is over the smashing value, and therefore the lock is destroyed. (I made up the damage values for shaped charge / shooting, so reality might be a bit different.)
Re: Lock toughness[message #101075] Thu, 06 May 2004 15:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
qL67o0j7

 
Messages:181
Registered:March 2004
Yes, that's what I noticed after having tried to break open locks. I think I noticed damage will lower the picking value too; Is that true, rla?
Re: Lock toughness[message #101076] Sun, 09 May 2004 11:55 Go to previous message
Folkewulf

 
Messages:56
Registered:August 2003
Thanks rfa. It makes sense that shooting, smashing and shaped charges all work against the same number. But there's always been the conception that some locks aren't "shootable". Is there something (possibly tied to the lock type as Kurt suggests) that says this? Or is it a JA myth that the code experts are going to debunk?

thanks again
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