Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance & Deadly Games » JA1 stuff (Jahh's guides on how everything JA1 works)  () 2 Votes
JA1 stuff[message #349362] Tue, 28 March 2017 13:42 Go to next message
Jahh

 
Messages:42
Registered:March 2017
Hello.
JA1 community (if its possible to call it such name overall) is in pretty non-existent state by now. Some info scattered some different places, and also quality of that info is often pretty incorrect and\or obsolete. I dropped initial idea of editing jawiki or write answers to posts scattered for example here, as it will require a really huge amount of typing (say jawiki info is often wrong beside some tables, so it would actually mean "write the whole wiki about ja1") with huge chance of it being in total vain, due to high probability of non-existence of ones who do read it anyway. So i decided to open that topic instead, so if anyone actually do have something to ask about that game, ill try to provide some info (in no way i can claim what i can answer everything, despite having some access to code, but after doing some google research i had to realize what in some slight case of somebody actually being interested in ja1, asking me about should be a most optimal way in a current sad state the Game's info is present online), so i will save time for myself answering stuff, that is not actual anymore for one, who initially asked about it, while still able to try to help somebody who still care with something actual for him/her.
Just to give some estimates about that game benchmarks good player should be aspiring to on impossible without any save/loads beside actual game sessions(or surpass them ideally): 1 day to simply win a game; 8 days to win it with all captured sectors (with using loading should be about 6 or even 5 i guess).

[Updated on: Tue, 13 February 2018 03:43] by Moderator

Re: JA1 stuff[message #349363 is a reply to message #349362] Tue, 28 March 2017 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3517
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
JA1 was an old game 17 years ago and a pretty niche game. I remember back then there were like only a couple of websites that had any decent info. Patusco I think had a guide, too.

I am currently remaking JA Galaxy into the info portal it used to be (considering there are hardly any JA news to report, JAG being a news portal is kinda useless). Original JAG had little to no JA1 info though so that section will need to be written from scratch. If you have any good articles or guides I would be happy to have them featured there.


Re: JA1 stuff[message #349364 is a reply to message #349363] Tue, 28 March 2017 14:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jahh

 
Messages:42
Registered:March 2017
Shanga wrote on Tue, 28 March 2017 14:36
If you have any good articles or guides I would be happy to have them featured there.

Its hardly mid 90-s now, so sitting down and writing a 100+ pages guide to old niche game that nobody ever will read seems as a waste of time for me now. If it suddenly turned to be what ja1 info is still needed to somebody - we will see, sure, this topic mainly to see if anyone is do care still.
Re: JA1 stuff[message #349365 is a reply to message #349364] Tue, 28 March 2017 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga

 
Messages:3517
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
I agree, nobody will read 100 pages guide on JA1 (or JA2 for that matter). But a few tips and tricks would go a long way.


Re: JA1 stuff[message #352383 is a reply to message #349365] Mon, 12 February 2018 18:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spamwebster

 
Messages:8
Registered:February 2018
Hi again

Now that I am on your topic please could you explain what you know about, how skills increase in JA1/DG outside of directly training.
If you could also explain what contributes towards the experience class increasing, I would appreciate it.

P.S.
I had actually seen this page before but that was a few weeks back, so I just completely forgot about it. Makes me feel like Moses.
Re: JA1 stuff[message #352385 is a reply to message #352383] Mon, 12 February 2018 18:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jahh

 
Messages:42
Registered:March 2017
Experience stuff in JA1.

Exp in JA1 is generated when given conditions (see below) are met, enabling a rolls for it to happen. Every merc have an Evolution trait, with 3 possible values: Evolution Increase; Evolution Decrease; No Evolution. Mercs with "No Evolution" cannot gain exp at all, and cannot change their stats besides getting decreases due to critical hits. Mercs with evolution are collecting exp, resulting in increase or decrease of stat in charge after needed amount is acquired. (note: unlike JA2 stats with 0 increase just fine like any others; EXP "from fail" not treated some other way than regular too).

Roll chance structure:
Base chance (BCh) to success depends on a value already amassed in a given stat by that merc:
[BCh = STATmax - STATcurrent - STATEXP/100 (or /1000 for ExpLevel)].
So the more able in that stat merc are, the less chance is. For every stat beside ExpLevel STATmax = 100, for ExpLevel STATmax = 10 (game cannot properly operate levels above 10).

Later base chance is modified by Wisdom stat:
[WisBCh = BCh + BCh * (Wisdom 50 + WisdomEXP/100)/100].
(Note: what unlike usual way, amassed Wisdom-to-be is already applying here (not at end of day); but not in other Wisdom checks). (Note2: JA2 have a distinction for Wisdom un\affected stats, in JA1 Wisdom apply to every one, including physicals). So Wisdom above 50 increases a chance, while below decrease it.

Then WisBCh is compared with roll 100 (0-99), being capped at 99. If rolled value is below WisBCh, merc get 1 EXP point in a given stat. If given stat is not ExpLevel, and event is triggered not via Train, merc also get 1 EXP point in ExpLevel.

Example. Merc with Marksmanship 96, Wisdom 100 and Hopeless Shot trait (Marksmanship increase chance /5) trait fires a gun, so get a 3 rolls.
BCh = 100 - 96 = 4.
WisBCh = 4 + 4*(100 - 50)/100 = 6
Hopeless Shot applying = 6/5 = 1 (all calculations here is in whole numbers (note: with Marksmanship = 97 chance would been already 0)).
So 3 rolls with 1% chance each to collect MarksmanshipEXP.

EXP points are stored for every stat, and applying (turning into stat point) at end of day if needed amount is amassed: 100 for non ExpLevel stats, 1000*CurrentLevel for ExpLevel stat.

Example. Merc with ExpLevel 2 amassed 2100 ExpLevelEXP points.
2100/2*1000 = 2000 ExpLevelEXP points converted to 1 ExpLevel point, remaining 100 ExpLevelEXP points remains stored.

Example. Merc with Health 99 amassed 215 HealthEXP points.
215/100 = 2 Health points, but as HealthMAX is 100, only one can apply, setting it to 100

Example. Merc with Agility 2 and Evolution Decrease trait amassed 215 AgilityEXP points.
215/100 = -2 Agility points, but as PhysicalMIN is 1, only one can apply, setting it to 1 (note: its possible to drop non-physical non ExpLevel stats to 0 (but not below) this way).


Conditions for rolls.
Below are complete (assuming i didnt some mistake) list of exp-generating conditions in JA1 (not in later JAs). Due to some balance decision, all "real" (non-training) non-Health rolls are quanted by 3, Health rolls are quanted by one, meaning you cant have a real action enabling less that 3 rolls, say on Medicine, while can with Health.

Training rolls.
Physical: 4 * (Phys[i]STATmax - Phys[i]STATcurrent) rolls for every Phys stat (Health, Agility, Dexterity)
Others: 12 * (STATmax - STATcurrent) rolls} (Marksmanship do not care about having weapon in hand or not).
Succesful rolls do not increase ExpLevelEXP, unlike "real" rolls.

Its clearly seen what Training is very non-balanced, weak, and not needed for a real game, only for some "story-" or "fun-" like runs. Full price charged for a non-committing to day purpose merc, who also dont enjoy healing bonus of Rest, for a some increase in some certain stat. Surely near-zero in trained stat mercs will get points quite fast initially, but spending couple of days to rise from 1 Explosive stat (useless) to 20 Explosive stat (useless) is useless, despite technically increase is impressive. Probably it should be balanced with price decrease somehow.


"Real" rolls (all acquired non-ExpLevelEXP also added as same amount of ExpLevelEXP). Note: some event can trigger more than one type of stat rolls.

Health

At the end of day for On Duty job: {for On Duty job: [HealthSTATmax - HealthSTATcurrent] rolls}
On opening crate or force opening door: [(crate\door strength)/10] rolls (so actually only tight ones, and only very few rolls)

Agility

Move out of sight of enemy, seen by you: 3 rolls
Evade a knife hit: 3 rolls
Evade a bullet hit: 3 rolls
Killing a watersnake with a knife: 75 rolls
Killing a watersnake without knife: 30 rolls (yes, less than with knife, it's a "fail" here, you should do it with a knife)

Dexterity

Attack with a knife: 3 rolls
Succesfully hit with a knife: 3 rolls
Reload a weapon, while seeing enemy: 3 rolls (possibly remnant of idea of charging AP for reload, not present in actual game, exploitable, as totally free)
Killing a watersnake with a knife: 75 rolls
Killing a watersnake without knife: 30 rolls
Throw an item: 6 rolls:
Applying First Aid (in combat): [3 * (bandaged health for this certain action / 6)] rolls
Succesfully picking door lock: 3 rolls
Succesfully picking journal safe lock: 300 rolls

Wisdom

Notice an item ("I see something" message, or open a box containing it, or find a wall detonator etc): 3 rolls (actually due to bug, merely touching some non-floor object (box, wall, shrub etc) will trigger it)
Triggering a "Wisdom Trap" ("This place looks suspicious" message without placing a blue flag): 30 or 15 rolls (depends on a given trap, not distinguishable inside game)
Combine 2 paper parts of Combination: 6 rolls
Killing a watersnake with a knife: 75 rolls
Killing a watersnake without knife: 30 rolls
Detect explosive trap: [3 * trap level] rolls
Starting a drowning ("Im drowning" message): 15 rolls
Succesfully picking door lock: 6 rolls
Succesfully picking journal safe lock: 300 rolls
Open journal safe using combination: 150 rolls

Medicine

Applying Doctor job (not First Aid in combat): [3 * (restored health for this certain action / 3)] rolls
Applying First Aid (in combat): [3 * (bandaged health for this certain action / 3)] rolls

Explosives

Damage somebody with explosive: 3 rolls
Install explosive or mine: 15 rolls (not include any fail check, exploitable)
Detect explosive trap: [3 * trap level] rolls
Detect mine with metaldetector: 6 rolls
Succesfully disarm explosive or mine: 30 rolls
Fail at disarm explosive or mine: 15 rolls
Combine 2 explosive items: 30 rolls
Throw an item: 6 rolls (rock too)

Mechanical

Applying Repair job: [3 * repaired percentage] rolls
Unjam gun: 6 rolls
Succesfully picking door lock: 6 rolls
Succesfully picking journal safe lock: 300 rolls
Succesfully combine 2 non-explosive items (attach ChunkofSteel or apply Compound17): 30 rolls
Fail at attaching of ChunkofSteel: 15 rolls (as its impossible to fail at applying of Compound17 its exploitable well, try to apply with ones, who are preferred to level up, the lower Mechanical skill is - the more effective the increase.)
Catch an enemy conversation with wallprobe: 15 or 30 rolls

Marksmanship

Fire a weapon (no matter target, no matter if target is hit or not): 3 rolls
Hit a target: 3 rolls
Open a door with a shot: 6 rolls

ExperienceLevel

At the end of day: 75 rolls
For capture of a sector, for participants (On Duty job and alive and well): 30 rolls
For notice an enemy without being revealed ("I see enemy, he don't see me" message): 6 rolls
For interrupting: 3 rolls
For killing an enemy: [15 * enemy's ExpLevel] rolls
For receiving a damage: [3 * damage received] rolls

As clearly seen, killing a watersnakes is a pure EXP bounty. Problem is what it cannot be really exploited, as there is always 5% chance to lose a merc to snake, no matter merc stats\knife wielding are.


And last, but not least (technically its more like first), mercs are arrive not empty-exped. When player succesfully hire a mercenary, rolls 100 are made for every non-ExpLevel stat with a chance to evolve (so for Evolving mercs, and for non-100 valued stat for Increasing and for non-0 valued stats for Decreasing) providing EXP for a given stat for a rolled amount and for ExpLevel for a same amount (as with "real" rolls) (note: in result, mercs with some stat value at 100, say Hurl, on average will have less initial ExpLevelEXP, as no EXP will be amassed from it). So on average new merc will already have about 400 ExpLevelEXP, making first ExpLevel increase slightly easier than others (of course same is true for all other stats, some of them could even have 99 points, so its possible to level stats with values of 99 to 100 sometimes).


Now we need somebody with JADG deep knowledge to tell differences. Personally i never played any JA game beside JA1, but EXP code changed noticeably between JA1 and JA2, and likely JADG already have some changes included, possibly explaining differences you noticed. But, even in JA2 EXP routine is pretty similar in base to JA1, despite triggers themselves can differs much. I'd suppose JADG is even closer.

Spamwebster wrote on Mon, 12 February 2018 18:49
Considering I spent the last few days madly filling mercenaries pages with every quote I could muster(Despite how much of a mess it could make the pages look) under this username.

Considering this, please, don't post it there. Link is ok, but not text itself.

[Updated on: Thu, 05 April 2018 23:32]

Re: JA1 stuff[message #352390 is a reply to message #352385] Tue, 13 February 2018 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spamwebster

 
Messages:8
Registered:February 2018
I the furthest I'd go is posting a link if asked. Considering how much work this must've taken, I'll let you decide where you want this information distributed. It helps that I have no idea what page it would go on. This is a bit more advanced than revealing that Bud was married all along.

Thank you for doing all this.
Re: JA1 stuff[message #353000 is a reply to message #352390] Sat, 07 April 2018 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
norill
Messages:2
Registered:April 2018
hi, how do i read signposts?
Re: JA1 stuff[message #353670 is a reply to message #353000] Sun, 03 June 2018 16:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pattoze

 
Messages:35
Registered:April 2016
Right click when the hand icon is over it. Same way you magnify items to see what they are happy

[Updated on: Sun, 03 June 2018 16:18]

Re: JA1 stuff[message #353671 is a reply to message #353670] Sun, 03 June 2018 18:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jahh

 
Messages:42
Registered:March 2017
pattoze wrote on Sun, 03 June 2018 16:17
.

Plz, avoid to respond to spammers here, you will just only encourage them that way (unless its your actual goal sure). Thx n advnc.
Re: JA1 stuff[message #355481 is a reply to message #352385] Sat, 27 October 2018 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
rumkacik
Messages:2
Registered:October 2018
Thank you. After long years I play ja1 again and explanation how stats are increasing help me a lot.
Do you now how sap price evolves? When it drops to 400$ and when it decreases/increases by 20$ after that?
Re: JA1 stuff[message #355490 is a reply to message #355481] Sun, 28 October 2018 17:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jahh

 
Messages:42
Registered:March 2017
Sure.
First stage of Tree Price quest is occurs when player have more than 32 trees total or harvested sap from more than 16 trees previous day: player get initial message about sap price from Jack.

Second stage occurs when player have more than 40 trees total or harvested sap from more than 20 trees previous day and first stage was happened already: next message about sap price Jack come, and roll for 1-3 days delay done. From now every next day till third stage will start delay counter will decrease and third stage will start when it will be zeroed (so minimum delay of 1 will mean third stage happens next day after second stage).

Third stage will bring third Jack message and drop of Tree price by 100$. Fourth stage will happen next day after.

Fourth (and final) stage is about adjusting Tree price according to amount of harvested trees of player and its relation to "target" price, that "should be reached" at a given amount vs actual current price. Every next start of day the harvested trees amount from previous day is compared to a "target" amount, that is [300+(harvested_trees_amount/10)*20] (note the calculation is in whole numbers, so, say, 50 or 59 harvested trees will yield same result), and if "target" price is above actual, it mean current price have to be adjusted up, and player acquire a "move price point" (starting with zero of them). In case "target" price is lower, current price have to go down, and player acquire a negative "move price point"; if prices are equal no action occurs. The "move price points" value adjusted above then compared to "required move price points amount", and if they are enough of them, the +-20$ Tree price change is occurs, with a message from Jack, and "move price point" value is zeroed again. "Required move price points amount" is a difficulty-tied and is 4 on Easy, 3 on Normal, and 2 on Hard (so possible price fall occurs slower on Easy, but price rise is slower too). When Tree price is reach 500$, the quest is ends, with a last message from Jack regarding it.

As last stage could be confusing, there is example (for Hard difficulty):

Day X, when player reach a fourth stage of quest, after tree price dropped to 400$ at the day X-1. At the day X-1 player harvested 58 trees, so actual price is 400$ per tree and target price is 300+(58/10)*20=400$. As they are equal, "move price points" player possess is 0+0=0.

Day X+1. At the day X player added some tappers to a new trees player captured during day X-1 and harvested 61 trees, so actual price is still 400$ per tree and target price is 300+(61/10)*20=420$. As target price is more than current, player gain a "move price point", so now player possess 0+1=1, and need to collect one more to actually rise a price.

Day X+2. At the day X+1 player lost ability to harvest some trees due to enemy actions\tree virus etc., and harvested only 50 trees, so actual price is still 400$ per tree and target price is 300+(50/10)*20=400$. As they are equal, no "move price points" change happens, so now player possess 1+0=1, and need to collect one more to actually rise a price.

Day X+3. At the day X+2 player again lost ability to harvest some trees due to enemy actions\tree virus etc., and harvested only 49 trees, so actual price is still 400$ per tree and target price is 300+(49/10)*20=380$. As target price is less than current, player lose a "move price point", so now player possess 1-1=0, and need to collect two more to actually rise a price, or lose two more to actually drop a price.

Day X+4. At the day X+3 player realized that he have a 35 trees in possession, that he totally forgot about, and not set tappers to them, so after he did set them, and also added some trees regained from enemy at day X+3 he harvested 94 trees, so actual price is still 400$ per tree and target price is 300+(94/10)*20=480$. As target price is more than current, player gain a "move price point", so now player possess 0+1=1, and need to collect one more to actually rise a price.

Day X+5. At the day X+4 player added some tappers to a new trees player captured during day X+4 and harvested 107 trees, so actual price is still 400$ per tree and target price is 300+(107/10)*20=500$. As target price is more than current, player gain a "move price point", so now player possess 1+1=2, and actually change a price from 400$ to 420$ (despite "target" price now is full 500$), "move price points" amount become 0.

Day X+6 & Day X+7. Player harvest same 107 trees. Target price is 500$ and actual price is 420$, so player collect a point at day X+6, then collect another one on day X+7, and rise a price to 440$

Day X+8 & Day X+9. Player harvest same 107 trees. Tree price rise to 460$.

Day X+10 & Day X+11. Player add 2 more trees and now harvest 109 trees, but it doesn't change anything about this quest. Tree price rise to 480$.

Day X+12 & Day X+13. Player harvest same 109 trees. At day X+13 tree price rise to 500$ and quest ends.

[Updated on: Sun, 28 October 2018 17:20]

Re: JA1 stuff[message #355493 is a reply to message #355490] Sun, 28 October 2018 19:02 Go to previous message
rumkacik
Messages:2
Registered:October 2018
Thank you for extremly fast and informative answer. Awesome.
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