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Re: WW II mod[message #275573] Fri, 11 March 2011 22:30 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
LootFragg is currently offline LootFragg

 
Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany
Well yes, I absolutely support using different weapons in different situations. I have always been an opponent to the reign of assault rifles. So I love the idea of using combat rifles, sniper rifles, machineguns, submachineguns, pistols and possibly shotguns the way they're supposed to work in a stylized world.

Gun ranges, like many aspects of the game, can't be taken from the real world and put into the game 1:1. Each time I hear somebody complaining about a certain rifle actually having higher range and such, I have to remind him of the various factors that have NOT been taken into account so far, starting with map size and flat terrain. This is not a war simulator, it's a game, blah. So gun ranges can be unrealistic. They are. No pistol works efficiently at 100m distance. Players would in theory be supposed to fire at 2-5 tiles distance with shots at 5 tiles barely scoring any hits.
So having a shotgun fire at 100-150m in JA2 is quite possible. At that distance the spread should already ensure the shotgun's inferiority when it comes to raw damage.

The stopping effect is of course not represented like it probably should, but each hit takes breath and every wound decreases a fighter's performance. I try to at least hit an enemy soldier in order to keep him in place by reducing his available APs and possibly have him faint and bleed to death. Aiming with wounds is worse. And being shot to pieces, mercs and enemies alike barely stand a chance of defending themselves in their turn. So attacking at close range, even if it doesn't ultimately stop somebody with certainty, should have enough effect to make shotguns a viable tool, but right now they're still inferior to pistols (which have an increased range for gameplay purposes) and submachineguns (being faster and more accurate as it stands).

In standard 1.13 I haven't yet been able to deal a significant amount of damage. Well, I've shot someone in the head point blank, but even when he died immediately, I could've dealt twice the damage with a meager pistol and a hollow point bullet. Although I have to admit I haven't used shotguns lately, except for slug ammo shotguns as early rifles like you said. And they're fairly slow (a bit like sniper rifles), not really accurate and when they hit (which would kill any deer) they don't really deal any significant damage. Bit like 5.56mm ammo.

[EDIT] I've just made my Ranger IMP (increased shotgun damage) fire at an unarmored pistol wielding redshirt from 13 tiles distance using a good Baikal MP-133 with slug ammo (15+5 range), aimed shot to the chest from a prone position. I managed to hit him, dealing 12 (!) points of damage. This action cost me all of my APs. Latest beta revision 4240 with 100% gun damage, sufficient for killing a redshirt with two Makarov shots to the body.
The UDB tells me the gun has a damage of 39, the slugs have standard 1.0 tumbling and penetration values.
So either there's something hardcoded that really nerfs down shotguns to make them absolutely useless or I can just never get a proper hit unless I'm up close, pointing a sawn-off at someone's head.

THIS is what makes shotguns useless when compared to "reality". They have actually been used in both world wars (trenchguns mainly). Not as common as casual guns though, due to their higher ranges and more penetration.

Indeed, shotguns haven't been standard issue military guns, neither are they today, but they've existed since ... always basically. The 18th century and maybe earlier. Even early musketeers used fragmented bullets to create spread instead of penetration - and I suppose muskets were technically more shotguns than rifles due to the smoothbore barrel and the large caliber. Shotguns are pretty common. They're mostly considered civilian and hunting firearms and even if they're not standard WWII era military equipment they shouldn't be excluded (they aren't, I'm just saying they should be somewhat relevant).

After all, it's not about a believable World War reenactment. I consider finding a hunting shotgun somewhere outside a military depot far more probable than finding an automatic weapon or even a good repeater rifle, but I might be biased.

Concerning balance and the high damage output of automatic weapons: Yes I think machine guns should have the highest damage in the entire game. Anybody in front of a bipodded machine gun has to be toast. I'd increase their potential even further, probably. I'm a machine gun fan. Even the Bundeswehr's MG3 ("even" is the wrong word, I think it's one of the best machine guns ever =D) basically "destroys" an area it's being pointed at. The amout of dirt being thrown up is incredible. The MG42 is almost twice as fast (well, can be) and holds a larger round so YEAH! Machine guns rule.

However, they need to be put in place like sniper rifles. Submachineguns are early assault rifles and basically work on every distance, but for gameplay reasons they're hard to wield and their full-auto spread is harder to contain with each bullet dealing significantly lower damage than rifles, making them flexible suppression guns (which they have actually been used for). Any accurate shots need to be taken by rifles. Pistols are backup guns but not the main choice for heated close combat battle. They shouldn't be, let's put it that way. So in order to have a weapon with good close combat properties that is tied to close combat only and not as flexible as SMGs, there's shotguns.

I agree though, they can't become too powerful due to buckshot against unarmored targets being lethal as shit. However, I'd want to see (and use) them as valuable close combat armament.

Also, pump-action is far faster than bolt-action, but that's already in the game.

If you could include some early shotguns and modify them accordingly, that'd be awesome.

[Updated on: Sat, 12 March 2011 08:05] by Moderator

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