Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Vanilla Modding » Advanced Warfighting AI
| Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100730]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 07:59 
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 PySnake |
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Messages:9
Registered:March 2004 |
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Long time JA player here (JA1-2, plus mods), C/C++/Python coder (10 yrs), VC6Pro owner. I just seen this topic, and thought I'd share an idea with you (I'll keep one big idea to each topic).
What I wanted when I played JA2 was an advanced warfighting AI. Not the AI of the soldiers on the individual battle maps, but an AI that fought you intelligently across the sector maps. Too often I suspected that gropups sent out to attack your sectors were triggered when you took a certain sector (confirm?). Playing JA2 never seemed like you were fighting a "real" opponent, just taking sectors and waiting for the next "triggered event" to fire off.
What I would like is a background "sim" to be programmed into JA2, sort of like an invisible enemy general who would command the forces the enemy had availible. Resources, soldiers, and what the enemy threw against you would all be virtually adjusted based on the country's "alert level" - the better you did, the tougher it got. The enemy sould also work of a "divide & conquor" strategy, cutting off your supply lines, hitting you where it hurts, and playing intelligently against you.
I know this might be a lot to ask, but I think it would be a good direction to take the game in. Less reliance on predictable scripted events, and more of a "war sim" model would add a lot to JA2, and its replayability. I'll know more when I get the game, and see the code for myself, but I wanted to start this discussion where people could throw it around and talk about it.
Any thoughts on this?
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100732]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 10:50 
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| PySnake |
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Messages:9
Registered:March 2004 |
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Yeah, I was just wondering if anyone had time to look at the code for the "stratigic AI" of JA2 yet. Is it a dynamic model, or event-based?
I would love to have to deal with such things as conscripts, local police, regular army units, elite teams, and even other mercs as I fought my way across the map. Especially with a "behind the scenes" commander tracking losses, formulating a strategy, and doing sneaky things like setting up ambushes for my team, hitting me in the backfield, and actively hunting my guys down.
I'd love to be in town shopping with some mercs when a enemy police partol wanders by....and then having to evade the "regular army reinforcements" cross country in order to make my escape. Makes things seem a lot more "alive," and a lot more unpredictable.
Just some thoughts.
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100736]
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Thu, 15 April 2004 07:59
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| Kronsat |
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Messages:1
Registered:April 2004
Location: Montreal, Canada |
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Hi,
This is my first post. I've been lurking around forever.
I'll add my 0.02$ for this topic though. This is not a "wouldn't it be cool if we could XYZ" kind of post. I actually know what it's like to work on a big complicated project and won't naively jump in with unrealistic wish lists. This is more a manifesto (for myself onlty maybe) to sort of formalize ideas that I've had for a while and maybe get some feedback from like-minded souls. I may even put my money where my mouth is and actually work on some of these ideas, via the JA2 source or as a separate game.
The sim/strategy aspect of JA2 is often overlooked. From all the discussion on the boards, I get the feeling that most people are into the tactical side of the game which is admittedly excellent.
All these improvements that people are clamoring about, like vehicles, multi-story buildings, better tactical AI, etc. will only incrementally improve the already cool tactical engine.
The dimension that I feel could really be improved is the strategic layer of the game. As a fan of civ-style games, I'd like to see the strategic engine overhauled to allow more complexity at a strategic level, particularly to bring in more wargame features.
I know that the original JA2 design team intentionally nixed the idea of allowing the use of the militia as an offensive force to prevent the game from becoming a wargame. But I think by allowing these wargame-like features, a new dimension could be added to the game. Mainly, the strategic/management layer of the game where resources are managed could be much more interesting and could lead to a more satisfying progression in the game, where a kind of revolution takes over. The game could evolve to apoint where the endgame is executed as mix of strategic and tactical maneouvers.
With this modification, you could envision sectors being taken by militia (possibly led by mercs) as well as only by your mercs. Since this would reduce the central role of the mercs, I would also create more "special-ops" type quests for the mercs, such as sabotage, assassination, kidnapping etc. The tactical engine would be excellent for this and allows a greater variety of tactcial situations than just clearing the sector of enemies. I can evision things like having to sneak into a sector withe explosives and mine a bridge, or set up an ambush to assasinate a visiting dignitary.
This is already a bit long for a post, but let me finish by providing a list of other strategic layer features which I would find cool (I know some of these are hinted at in some mods)
- Resource management for militia (large scale import of arms, interaction with arms dealers, ,vehicles)
- more complex factions as strategic adversaries with limited diplomacy options(arms dealers, multiple rebel groups, international players)
- Strategic use of vehicles for transport, including air, sea, river transport.
- Expansion of approval rating system and more impact.
- Aggressive strategic warfighting AI, strong strategic counter attacks.
These changes would also allow more distinct use of different merc abilities, leader-type mercs could be used to lead militia, recruit peasant in the country, explosive-types for sabotage and laying minefields, mech-types could repair vehicles.
Anyways, maybe this is a different game than JA2 can eveolve to, but I wanted to set it out there. I know that the general community is definitely more oriented towards the tactical engine, and I definitely want to congratulate the white hats on focussing on the mod-ability issues which truly is the way to go.
Cheers 
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Civilian
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100737]
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Thu, 15 April 2004 09:55
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| Yukinio |
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Messages:11
Registered:April 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland |
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Quote:Originally posted by PySnake:
What I wanted when I played JA2 was an advanced warfighting AI. Not the AI of the soldiers on the individual battle maps, but an AI that fought you intelligently across the sector maps. Too often I suspected that gropups sent out to attack your sectors were triggered when you took a certain sector (confirm?).
The queen (AI) will react if you take a sector that has a garrison, or if you win enough battles. Here reacting means a resource management function wakeupqueen() to be called.
//file: Strategic AI.c
void StrategicHandleQueenLosingControlOfSector()
Actually the AI is dumbed down deliberately. The player is allowed to breath a little when a garrison sector is taken. The reinforcements on route to the taken sector are cancelled.
Anyways, the size of the response is decided depending on a few factors, which sector was lost, the sectors current investigative value, etc..
Quote:
What I would like is a background "sim" to be programmed into JA2, sort of like an invisible enemy general who would command the forces the enemy had availible. Resources, soldiers, and what the enemy threw against you would all be virtually adjusted based on the country's "alert level" - the better you did, the tougher it got. The enemy sould also work of a "divide & conquor" strategy, cutting off your supply lines, hitting you where it hurts, and playing intelligently against you.
Well, I have to say that all of the above besides the divide&conquer tactics is more or less already implemented.
If we want a tougher AI, we could try removing the few restrictions or toning them down. For example, we could make the sector investigative state raise more quickly. That would lesson the amount of probing attacks and make the queen send more serious troops more quickly.
Or if we really wanna push it. Lets remove the cancel reinforcements rule. But I suspect that this might lead to a pretty tedious gameplay. I suppose there many more factors we can adjust. The current resource management system seems to be very good though IMHO.
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100741]
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Fri, 16 April 2004 21:54
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| Kurt |
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Messages:420
Registered:March 2004 |
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Tyco,
That's a good idea, which would help a lot with the current "lemming-like" behaviour of the militia.
Back to strategy:
I agree with PySnake, it has always been a thing I didn't like in the plot. If I were in charge of the Queen's army, I would have immediately sent a whole bataillon (not just a squad or two), assisted by a couple of tanks, and the pistol-armed mercs wouldn't have got further than the first town, or they would have to spent months hiding in the countryside.
IMHO right now there isn't any real strategy (of course, define "strategy"). Right now, from the player point of view, we just have a dozen suicidal enemies who just drop in at random, from time to time. It's not a challenge, it's just an annoyance, it just means I have to send a team of "teachers" back to that town from time to time, to "rebuild" the killed militia. That's IMHO a bit shallow for a strategy.
If you implement concrete counteroffensives, you should also rethink the player's ressources.
If the enemy "general" decides that he just *has* to retake some town (SAM base, garrison) and starts sending out an unending stream of attackers, the player will immediately get pinned down, and won't be able to do anything else than defend this place, spending most of his game time shooting invaders. Now make that enemy general try to retake 2-3 places, and the player is completely bogged down. The game becomes a static shooting gallery.
If you implement strategic options (which could be cool BTW), you'll have to implement a real tactical AI, and the possibility of freely moving militia troops from one place to another (reinforcements). That means that, as the devs feared, new sector conquest won't be done by the hired mercs anymore; The mercs will train the militia, and the militia will do the dirty jobs. Mercs might give a helping hand, but chances are they'll have better things to do. In this game, you might be able to hire Fox (for instance), and conquer the whole country only using her, training militia night & day. It's a different game.
IMHO that is a very delicate problem, which might improve gameplay, but also completely destroy it.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100743]
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Fri, 16 April 2004 23:36
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| Rubberduck |
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Messages:4
Registered:April 2004 |
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My 2 cents for this topic. How about towns having the finite number of people available to be trained as militia, and every battlegroup of militia moving outside the town must be commanded by merc. Also, too much losses in militia group outside, the support would fall, and there would be possibility of desertion amongst the militia. Example, support is 85%, there would be 15% chance per militia member of deserting. Checked before battle perhaps. Just a though. :angel:
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Civilian
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100746]
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Thu, 22 April 2004 21:27
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| Shakal |
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Messages:2
Registered:April 2004
Location: Slovakia |
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I think, main problem is with a way of thinking about JA2. When we (the community) didnt had source code, the changes we can made were only slight ones (add/change some weapons stats, mercenary stats, quests texts, graphics and so on). But now, we have access to code and with little (;o)))) effort, we can make whole new game. Yes, JA is mostly about tactical fighting with little bit of RPG and (maybe) strategy. Lets fix that tactical layer (there is well enough sugestions about that) and make it possible to enhance its another layers (RPG and strategy). Because on tactical layer, you have many possibilities how to solve problem. But problem with that problem is, there is only one problem (;o))): "How to kill them all ..."
Stop thinking about JA2 like about a game. Transform it into: "tactical game engine" with some (editable) RPG and strategic possibilities. With easy to use editors of maps, groups, quests and so on ...
Please ... ;o)
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100748]
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Tue, 27 April 2004 00:44
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| Ancientgamer |
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Messages:3
Registered:April 2004 |
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Might be cool if the AI had a "last known position" for you and would send reinforcements to search those areas. If the AI had access to a humvee equipt rapid-reaction-force this would be even more dangerous. Maybe one or two rapid platoons would spawn each month. You could tie the number of spawning rapid reaction forces to say the number of "motorpools" in enemy hands.
A strategic option to go into "ambush" mode (like repair,train,ambush, etc) for a squad would be cool too. If you ambushed an enemy patrol entering your sector then they deploy first, you see them all, then you deploy your forces and get to shoot first.
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Civilian
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100750]
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Thu, 29 April 2004 13:46
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| PsyckoSama |
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Messages:9
Registered:April 2004 |
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I like the ideas presented here and would like to make afew additions and comments.
First, if you dislike the idea for more wargame content of JA2 that is your right, but it does not mean you HAVE to DL the mod. 
As for the other stuff... I think that acouple ideas that could be added to that are as follows:
1) Allow for more mercs. Rather then a potental 18 how about a potental 18,000. If we have the capitol why not let us hire every merc in the game?
2) Have it so Militia can be moved from sector to sector and used to attack but ONLY if lead by a "squad leader". That squad leader could be a militia officer or a merc but any battle fought with them in a non-autobattle region (IE an invasion) would be controled by the player through their commander. If the merc commander is killed then the militia revert to the militia AI as they no longer have an experenced leader to command them.
3) Allow Omerta, and possibly Orta, Estoni, and Tixa to train Militia. With an agressive enemy AI the ability to train Militia in Omerta would be invaluabe because you would have to do more than just conqure Drassen, you'll have to secure it before the queen can over run it.
4) allow the player to reequip Militia with better gear. By mid game you'll probelly have more SMGs and single shot rifles then you know what do with after the upgrade to assault rifles, so why not give your militia members something with more punch then a .38?
5) Let every city sector have some value, other than just the mines... like have town sectors raise militia faster becuase of thier greater consentration of population, have the Grumm factories actually produce war meterial, Orta produce high tech toys and ammo for rocket rifles, or the Alma acadamy the ability to train militia to the Vet level or train militia "officers" who can command a unit rather then using a merc.
6) This is a bit of a pipe dream but is possible, how about vehicles that are tatically useful. Have the enemy actually deploy armor against your or have hummers that can move and mount light machine guns?
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100751]
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Thu, 29 April 2004 17:04
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| Harper |
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Messages:149
Registered:June 2003
Location: Germany |
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1)I do not think that is a good idea. Actually I think this would totally destroy the spirit of Jagged Alliance. Honestly said, the game would be more interesting if the max. number of mercs available would be reduced to 8.
2)Attacking militia might be a funny option. However, this would turn Jagged Alliance into something it is not today, totally killing the spirit of Jagged Alliance, so personally I prefer to let the militia in town, doing some defending now and then. The militia's function in the game is to let unimportant battles be done quickly without having them to do manually with mercs.
3) Omerta has no population except the rebels, so training militia makes no sense.
4) Equiping militia seems to be something desireable on the first glance. However, when the militia gets more effective by equipping this has to be compensated by stronger enemies. The only effect of the "equipping militia"-function would be this: more annoying micro-management for the player, less combat.
5) I do not think that providing the player with an unlimited fund of items by producing them would make the game better. Indeed, the availability of items - especially amo - is, compared to JA1, way too high.
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Sergeant
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100752]
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Thu, 29 April 2004 18:43
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| PsyckoSama |
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Messages:9
Registered:April 2004 |
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Diffrent strokes man... besides I do not see any major statement "THIS IS THE SPIRIT OF JAGGED ALLAINCE" writen in stone. You see it the way you see it, I see it the way I see it, and if a advanced warfighting AI is added in a Mod then DON'T DOWNLOAD IT. You have every right not to if you don't feel it fits the "spirit" of the game, just please do not try and undermine the idea for those who do like it.
Sorry, just felt it had to be said.
as for the points...
3) Same can be said of SAM Sites... 
4) I like to micromanage thank you very much, and while those who do not can feel free to leave the Militia with starting level gear, it would be nice for those of us who DO NOT mind to have the option open to us.
5) Ofcourse there would have to be limits, but still, its better then waiting a week watching Bobby-Ray's to get enough 7.62mm AP ammo in so you can take that next town...
BTW, slightly off topic, but how difficult would it be to make the character interaction system more powerful then just "Friendly, Direct, Hostile, Recruit"? Maybe something like Fallouts could work?
Or is that no in tune with the "spirit of Jagged Alliance"?
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100753]
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Fri, 30 April 2004 07:56
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| PySnake |
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Messages:9
Registered:March 2004 |
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My whole intention on starting this thread was to look for ways to improve the invisible "chess game" behind JA2. I don't want turn JA2 into a Command & Conquer RTS game, it's fun the way it is on the tactical level.
Replayability should be the number one goal. As the game stands right now, it's not too much different than a console RPG, with the same scripted events firing off predictably when you do "X" or take sector "Y". The second or third play through, your tactics reflect your knowledge of the scripts, and have little bearing on a map-wide strategy.
What I want is a background sim that you can play with, develop tactics against, and try different strategies on. Let's take the military base in Alma. That base should be a source of local troops (and pain for your team). The base should have patrols in nearby sectors, and issue orders to take care of trouble in sectors the base "knows" about.
If a patrol gets whacked by the mercs, the base should send reinforcements (from its pool) to the site where the patrol was lost. The reinforcements could have orders to search for the mercs, patrol, wait in ambush at a position, take a sector back, or set up a camp and wait for orders.
Throughout the game, the player should have to deal with the trouble Alma's military base causes on the map...until the player takes Alma, and puts an end to it. This event could force Deidranna to make a (semi-random) stratigic choice to follow on her own, like:
- Sending out small teams of hired mercs from Meduna to hunt your mercs
- Fortifying an uncotrolled town on the map, and applying the "military base AI" to it
- Sending a force to retake Alma
- Send a small force of engineers to mine an area of one of your sectors, preferably a road...
- Set up ambushes along roads with some of her troops
- Sending a Force to retake something else, hoping to weaken Alma
- E-Mailing you with a bribe to get you to leave Alma (real offer or not, she is crooked...)
- Bribing a sector's militia to switch sides (low loyalty = payoff city...just like the real world)
The game continues along this set of "cause and effect" events, and Deidranna and her forces react to you in fun, JA2-style ways. AI strategies can succeed, fail, end, or change. E-Mails or informers could tip you off to her current tactics, or what the army's doing in the area (ignore these, or use them to your benefit - your choice).
Realism is not the goal. Yes, it's realistic for her to immediately send 500 troops to crush the rebels, but that's not the way the world of JA2 works. How the game feels and plays now should be preserved, my goal with this idea is to make the AI use its limited resources (troops, towns, bases, SAM sites) better.
None of these ideas change the game in a huge way, and leaves how the tactical game plays untouched - a key goal. What I want is the background "chess game" to feel more realistic, the "invisible hands" of the AI to run strategies against you, and make you to think about the consequences of taking a sector.
Adavanced Warfighting AI should raise the level of tactics, strategy, and thinking a player has to use when playing JA2 - not turn it into a drastically different game.
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| Re: Advanced Warfighting AI[message #100755]
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Sun, 02 May 2004 21:42
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| Kurt |
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Messages:420
Registered:March 2004 |
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Hey, hey, people, don't become obsessed by Arulco!
JA and it's sequel were situated in Metavira, and JA2:UB took place in Tracona. Arulco is just one of the three JA settings, and any future JA should take place somewhere else: Arulco is *not* JA.
I think we (at least me) have already seen enough of Deidranna and Arulco. That's something I liked in UC: A new setting, new looks, it definitely don't feels like you're replaying JA2 for the billionth time.
New settings would mean new challenges, different strategies, new hardware, in short, a brand new situation. Like in UC. Anyone regrets UC doesn't take place in Arulko?
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Master Sergeant
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