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Tactical Vehicles[message #101357]

Sat, 15 May 2004 00:26

TrooperThorn

Messages:61
Registered:November 2002

I woke up with the thought about tactical vehicles in JA.

I will use the Stryker as an example.

Now currently you can load your mercs up in a vehicle and drive them from point A to point B on the map. In tactical the vehicle can't really move. So if that is a limitation that cannot be overcome, how about if you could click and place the vehicle around the map, much like when you are map building?

Next would be weapons. The vehicle could have character inventory like the Mercs' currently do. It's weapons systems could be in the inventory already and you would just click and drag the weapon system over to a hand slot and when you moved the cursor back to the screen you would get the targeting sight like with the mercs.

TOW Rockets, 40mm cannon would give you the red cross. SAW or .50 cal, chain gun would give you the adjustable CtH ring.

Just an idea for the new source mods (SMs) to take a look at. Very Happy

:doctor:

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Corporal

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101358]

Sat, 15 May 2004 09:21

PsyckoSama

Messages:9
Registered:April 2004

how about we don't se the Stryker as an example. The Stryker is an overpriced piece of junk. the Vietnam M113 does everything the stryker can do better and cheaper...

That bitched, I agree... and I think it would be good if this was true for both sides.

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Private

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101359]

Sat, 15 May 2004 13:43

Khor1255

Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ

Movement of tactical vehichles is not an impassable barrier. I'm no programmer but I assure you that making a vehichle move on the tactical screen is far from impossible.
That said, I also believe it would be a vast improvement for someone to flesh this out. It's going to take quite a bit more work than the cut and splice method I proposed when the code first came out but it's something definately worth looking in on.
Whatever the vehichle, it should have defense strength both for itself and those riding in it that reflects the characteristics of the armour (or just plain sheet metal) surrounding the component taking damage.
In other words, if the vehichle has a lot of metal but not placed to protect it's components (like a luxury or sports car) it might offer some protection for passengers but not much for it's own running condition (could break down on the battlefield). But if it were more like a Special Forces dune buggy, it would offer little in the way of protection for passengers but be hard to put out of service.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101360]

Sat, 15 May 2004 19:55

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

Tactical vehicles are definitely possible. Take Fallout:Tactics as an example: A vehicle has a number of merc slots (depending on the vehicle), and an inventory. One of the mercs inside will have to drive, so he will loose one hand slot (a steering wheel appears). The others are free to use their weapons (or other items).

All vehicles have their own movement and acceleration/turn rate specs, which allows for instance a jeep to make much quicker manoevres than a tank. You move them around like mercs, by selecting the vehicle (or the driver) and telling him/her where ot go. And if a vehicle runs into a solid object, it gets damaged. And if you drive over someone, he get's damage too. So you can just roll over your enemies with your vehicle... :diabolical:

Any vehicle can have a fixed gun, one you can't take off, and which is handled by one of the passengers (not the driver).
In Fallout:Tactics the tank gun is made like this, and I made myself a "special forces buggy" by fixing a M2 on a dune buggy. As expected, the whole thing was somewhat buggy Very Happy

, because there wasn't any weapon's pivot point set for the "buggy" object (so most of the time the gun appeared beneath the vehicle!). But except those purely graphical glitches, it worked as expected.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101361]

Sat, 15 May 2004 19:56

Harper

Messages:149
Registered:June 2003
Location: Germany

When we start talking about that pieces of hardware we have to ask for the consequences of tactical combat.

1. With vehicles and vehicle-weapons single mercs get increasingly obsolete. The necessity for tactics is heavyly decreased.
2. The enemies have to be equiped with heavy weapons to be able to cope with vehicles. Heavy weapons tend to make merc's life short and brutish.
3. With the emphazize on heavy weapon systems and vehicles it would no longer be the "some guys with weapons shoot some other guys with weapons"-game. I wonder if personality would remain important, or individual superiority.

My 2 cents: Implementing moving vehicles with TOW-rockets, 40 mm cannons or chain guns would not improve the core of the game.

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Sergeant

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101362]

Sat, 15 May 2004 20:13

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

I don't agree. I made a vehicle/realism mod for Fallout:Tactics, so I have tested gameplay. Mercs stay important for several reasons:

1.- Vehicles don't drive themselves. It's like having a mortar (or otehr heavy weapon): You need the people to handle it.

2.- Vehicles are fragile and expensive: It won't change your base tactics, since most of the time you'll have to send scouts on foot to see if the path is clear (mines, ambushes). Mercs in vehicles have big problems spotting enemies. And you wouldn't risk your precious tank running behind a hidden sniper, would you. Especially if there are chances enemy tanks might appear later on!

3.- Often you just can't use your vehicle. Like when cleaning a building (lots of them in JA), or a forest patch. Or when inconsiderate use of HE shells from your tank might turn the whole town hostile (no mine, no money).

4.- Yes, you need heavy weapons. But they already exist (LAWs, mortars, explosives, mines). So that won't change anything.

5.- A vehicle can be a burden. No more hit & run and stealth tactics when rumbling in with your heavy vehicle(s). So you even might choose to abandon your vehicles for some specific actions; Actually it would enhance tactics, at least IMHO.

Of course a 40mm cannon or TOWs would be overkill. Not that it would make the game too easy, actually you would never be able to use them for fear of collateral damage. But a LMG on a jeep might be fine. As in reality, it would rather be a defensive weapon than an offensive one (unless you want to risk loosing your jeep to enemy fire - it's a big, easy target).

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Master Sergeant

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101363]

Sun, 16 May 2004 01:29

TrooperThorn

Messages:61
Registered:November 2002

Kurt

Those are some very good arguments. Well thought out and to the point. Heck, you almost have me not wanting vehicles at all.

I agree that you would need to be cautious about the vehicles. Not too many of them and not too overpowering. I think one or two as an additional character, like Hamous's ice cream truck converted to say a heavy armored armed Humvee would be good. Limit it to certain terrain features.

Definitely it would not replace the Mercs. I was thinking that since the bugs are able to move around that maybe there is something in their source coding that could be converted to allow the tactical movement.

You could even just have the vehicles be unarmed, like cars, trucks, jeeps. Of course JA2 already has the ice cream truck, humvee, and helicopter. It would depend on the road infrastructue that was put into the game.

I almost forgot...I had an idea about river gun boats. What do you think about that concept?

Excellant arguments on your points and very persausive.

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Corporal

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101364]

Sun, 16 May 2004 03:18

Apollo

Messages:57
Registered:November 2003
Location: England

While we're on the subject of other vehicles, how about fire support from skyrider's helicopter? Assign another merc to the chopper, have it hovering above the battle field, and it gets a turn. Same rules as for a normal LMG. Add some handheld SAMs to level out the tactics (how much do you value that helicopter...) and it wouldn't affect game balance too much either. And the programming for a shadow and sound effects are there already.

Apollo

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Corporal

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101365]

Sun, 16 May 2004 11:17

Khor1255

Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ

Tactical vehichles is another thing that would greatly improve Ja2 by increasing player interaction with his environment. Of course game balance would be something that should be carefully thought out but consider this: In many situations a vehichle is a liability to those inside (one target containing multiple mercs clustered together). As Kurt said, finding the battles where vehichles are a help to you're team adds tactical diversity not to mention a lot of fun.
I am at heart a Ja purist. I've said many times that all Ja really needs is a new quest and set of maps to make another great game. But with the source code already out, why not add the possibility of having a 'Rat Patrol' type team utilising vehichles when tactics allow.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101366]

Tue, 18 May 2004 19:10

tuccy

Messages:19
Registered:June 2003
Location: Czech Republic

Quote:

Originally posted by Apollo:
While we're on the subject of other vehicles, how about fire support from skyrider's helicopter? Assign another merc to the chopper, have it hovering above the battle field, and it gets a turn. Same rules as for a normal LMG. Add some handheld SAMs to level out the tactics (how much do you value that helicopter...) and it wouldn't affect game balance too much either. And the programming for a shadow and sound effects are there already.

Apollo

The chopper Skyrider uses would be way too fragile to be used in such a role IMO, unlessss you'll add there somethink as Blackhawk or Ka-29:)
But manpack SAMs should be added, they should affect helicopter movements on the strategic map, say they will cover only one sectory. this would force you to carefully plan the path of the chopper to not go over known enemy positions and will increase the risk of flying over unexplored sectors.
As to the vehicles, I won't think they'll unbalance game so much. Still, to do the close combat, you'll have to go on foot as the APC will be too fragile. Just add molotov cocktail as a weapon... And LAWs are already in the game. I'd rather suggest making mortar less effective on armor, in real life I doubt I can take out M-48 with a 60mm mortar.

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Private

Re: Tactical Vehicles[message #101367]

Tue, 18 May 2004 20:20

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

I don't see the use of portable SAMs. Either they are hidden, and that means at some random time your helicopter and it's passengers will just cease to exist, or you know where they are, and you have to hunt them down like as many small-sized SAM sites. IMHO it doesn't add anything worthwhile.

This (civilian, fragile) helicopter is IMHO already at it's full tactical potential (transport, scouting).
Adding military grade transport helicopters won't add anything, since they have to move in packs, one covering another.
Adding gunships would slightly unbalance the game, not because of their firepower (same restrictions as for tanks - BTW, would you use a million dollar Hellfire missile against a hidden sniper?), but because they would allow you to scout the battlefield. They are quite fragile, too. Not to mention that I don't really see how you can finance a gunship's fuel, ammunition and pilot(s) in a story where you haven't enough money to buy yourself a decent gun...

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Master Sergeant

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