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NVGs in caves?[message #162795]

Fri, 26 October 2007 20:39

Tyco

Messages:188
Registered:September 2001
Location: Be'er Sheva, Israel

I don't know much about night vision technology, but it seems to me if night vision goggles work on the principle of amplifing ambiant light, then NVGs in JA2 shouldn' work in caves. I know that infra red is used to increase light for NVGs when there isn't enough light to amplify, but I don't know if this is standard feature in NVGs.

So to be on the safe side I set the NVG sight bonus in ja 1.13 to 0 inside caves. Very Happy

But maybe I'm wrong. From what I read in Wikipedia about NV devices, Generation-2 NVGs have built-in IR, so in ja2 GenII goggles would have sight bonus inside caves after all.

Anyone can confirm this? Prefferably someone with more background then a Wiki article?

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Staff Sergeant

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #163194]

Tue, 30 October 2007 23:35

Kensuke

Messages:40
Registered:May 2007

Ahh....you just raised the major problem I had with the "Silence of the Lambs" movie.

Well, my father played around with Gen I in Vietnam and yes, what you said is essentially correct. Your need moonlight for them to work (starlight is kinda iffy). Later generations (II and III) added IR illuminators so that they could work in the absence of ambient light and upped the sensitivity so that they could work better in poorer light (ie. starlight). Military goggles usually work in passive mode only because IR illuminators can be detected by somebody else wearing IR capable NVDs. AFAIK, this is not coded in the game though, so there's no detection penalty if you go up against other NVD wearing soldiers. Thus we can assume that the game treats them as operating in "passive" mode, and thus your sight bonus modification makes sense.

Actually, I'm not sure JA2 even addresses thermal. I seem to recall reading something about it, but I might have it confused with the UV goggles.

If you want to get really technical, Gen I could actually be coded to have some serious liabilities. Such as they would temporarily blind the merc and damage the goggles if an explosion or really bright light source went off near them. Set off a flashbang not terribly close to some troops wearing Gen I. NVDs and watch them be unable to do jack-shit except stumble around for a couple of turns. Later generations added the necessary circuity to adjust for this.

- John

[Updated on: Tue, 30 October 2007 23:42] by Moderator

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Corporal

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #163891]

Wed, 07 November 2007 15:21

Starwalker

Messages:758
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany

Basically yes, the NVG in JA2 are passive. I know of some that have a small IR-LED, but that's just for reading maps and such, because the range is very low.

NVG would work properly in caves if we had IR-illumination of some kind (the ISM-V-IR and the LAM-200 provide IR-illumination, for example), but the code does not support this kind of interdependencies, so I simply allowed a bit of nightvision in caves.

As stated elsewhere, the whole nightvision system (Goggles, IR-Illumination, Flashlights) needs to have a major renovation, at the moment it is very simplified.

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First Sergeant

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #163894]

Wed, 07 November 2007 15:37

Will Gates

Messages:1011
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.

It was my understanding that nvg's gave no LoS or interupt advantage underground anyway in ordinary JA2. The only reason you get to interupt a lot of the crepitus is that they are functionally blind and by the time you meet them your whole team has levelled up enough to count. The only benefit to wearing them underground is that it stops their acid blinding you.

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Sergeant Major

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #163899]

Wed, 07 November 2007 16:13

Starwalker

Messages:758
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany

Will Gates

It was my understanding that nvg's gave no LoS or interupt advantage underground anyway in ordinary JA2. The only reason you get to interupt a lot of the crepitus is that they are functionally blind and by the time you meet them your whole team has levelled up enough to count. The only benefit to wearing them underground is that it stops their acid blinding you.

Originally the UV-Goggles had no bonus in caves, but the NVG had, IIRC.

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First Sergeant

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #163957]

Thu, 08 November 2007 06:37

JaM1977

Messages:35
Registered:May 2007

another reason to have a flashlights attachable to the guns - IR flashlight should provide big cave sight bonus+ small night vision bonus. Nobody with at least normal self preservance would ever run on battlefield with normal flashlight....

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Private 1st Class

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #163973]

Thu, 08 November 2007 10:15

Starwalker

Messages:758
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany

JmX

Nobody with at least normal self preservance would ever run on battlefield with normal flashlight....

It could work if the Flashlight had a blinding effect, and would be used inside buildings.
But on an open field it would be suicidal, that's true.

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First Sergeant

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #164069]

Fri, 09 November 2007 14:47

Kensuke

Messages:40
Registered:May 2007

I'd keep most of the NVGs just the way they are. Maybe limit the Gen I so it does not work inside caves like Tyco has. Assume that Gen II, III and IV can switch between passive and active depending on what's needed so that they get the slight bonus in caves. Otherwise, you'd have to do a lot of recoding.

Flashlights, LAMs and other things need work though. Mainly because the game has absolutely no concept of visible light versus invisible light. Flashlights would work regardless, but would be like having a glow stick right next to you all the time. Not exactly smart. The pistol/SMG LAMs really need NVGs in order to work effectively at night.

The ISM-V-IR is fine because just the way it is. Leave it be. It incorporates the sight in with the aiming module. No interdependencies needed. It's all in one.

- John

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Corporal

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #164271]

Sun, 11 November 2007 19:42

DNA from the Lowlands

Messages:337
Registered:July 2003

As is now there's only the Light/Dark in the code, light-intensity.
Perhaps 'that whole-shabam' (pardon me for writing so 'light') could be copied and modified to the IR-spectrum ?

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Master Sergeant

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #164352]

Mon, 12 November 2007 23:33

Starwalker

Messages:758
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany

Kensuke

Flashlights, LAMs and other things need work though. Mainly because the game has absolutely no concept of visible light versus invisible light. Flashlights would work regardless, but would be like having a glow stick right next to you all the time. Not exactly smart. The pistol/SMG LAMs really need NVGs in order to work effectively at night.

At least the LAM 200 incorporates (in reality) both a visible and IR laser, and both a visible and IR light source.

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First Sergeant

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #164480]

Wed, 14 November 2007 17:55

CrUsHeR

Messages:26
Registered:August 2007
Location: Munich, Germany

thermal vision would be too nice, if you have played "s

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Private 1st Class

Re: NVGs in caves?[message #167963]

Tue, 18 December 2007 07:33

Dr-D

Messages:102
Registered:July 2005
Location: Portugal

Please be advised:

Earth it self is a Star of infra-red light.

Almost everything that has temperature also emits IR light.

But that light is usually weak.

I would say that inside a cave, even passive IR goggles would help at least 10% of the active goggles.

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Sergeant

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