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Stracciatella Ramblings[message #255781]
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Fri, 09 July 2010 15:49
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Geoffrey_White |
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Messages:24
Registered:June 2010 |
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Is Tron going to continue development of Stracciatella?
If not, is anyone else willing to pick-up the torch to carry-on Tron's work?
(I'm just curious).
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Are there plans for the introductory cinematic sequences for Jagged Alliance 2 to be played in Stracciatella?
If not... Why?
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I also read that you can't play the Jagged Alliance 2 music in Stracciatella. Is that true, and if so, why isn't it played by default?
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From what I've read thus far, it seems that Tron does not have administrator-access to the original website that hosted Stracciatella.
Do you think, if Tron (and maybe a few others) e-mail the administrators of said website asking them to redirect Tron's original URL to his current URL, they would do so?
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Although I understand that it isn't legally possible to create a proper all-in-one installation application for Windows (including data files), I was wondering if Stracciatella would gain more support if there was one that was amazingly straightforward, but didn't actually include the necessary data files?...
For example, could an installation application be created that would automagically create the install the files for Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella to the appropriate directory (allowing the user the option to specify a directory, have it ask the user where the necessary data files are located, have the user select the appropriate location (such as their install and/or play CDs), and then have it copy the data files from the user-specified source to the directory specified for Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella (or, at least automagically display a ReadMe.txt containing detailed instructions for the user on how to copy the files themselves)?
If so, I think that would be the best option for new users (while, existing users can simply be given a new JA2.exe with each new release). It could easily be explained as, "New users, download JA2Setup.exe and have your Jagged Alliance 2 CD(s) handy!"
Of course, this is just my two cents, and I do realise it may take quite a bit of time; I was just hoping...
This would be an awesome thing to have available for Windows (.exe), and a similar thing could be done for both Mac OS X (.dmg), and Ubuntu (.deb), if I'm not mistaken.
If Tron would be willing to do this/these, that'd be amazing, but I believe we all know that it would be extremely time-consuming, and prolly very annoying too, for just one person to do (especially when that same person is the one who does all of the coding), so I don't expect Tron to.
However, if several people still wanted one, and Tron would be willing to post it on the Website, I would be willing to create at-least a Windows installation application (I'd consider an Ubuntu one, but the requests for it would have to be many, because I don't currently have the knowledge to do so, and unfortunately don't have access to a Mac to create the Mac OS X one).
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Speaking of data files, exactly which files are required for Stracciatella (I'm actually asking for a list containing each file needed, because I believe I copied quite a few more than I needed to)? In fact, it might be easier to just tell me exactly what files I need to have, and where I need to have them (including the ones that Stracciatella provides).
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As a final note (and a possible found bug):
In the current release of Stracciatella civilians (at-least in the Rebel Hideout) are not visible for some reason...
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If anything, I'd love to set-up a Subversion to somewhat fork from the current revision in Tron's Subversion; people could add bugfixes, continue to add patches to make it able to be run on even more platforms than it already does (which is very impressive already), and continue Tron's work to make a stable platform for mod development.
Since Subversion tracks all changes, Tron could simply look at the code, fix anything deemed unclean/unstable code, and impliment it into his official project's Subversion/releases. The people that add code to the Subversion wouldn't need to post their changes on this Forum, and this there wouldn't be five threads here for the same issue, as it'd already be in the forked-Subversion, and Tron could simply take the fix from there (obviously, other people with issues would still post their issues in the Forum; I'm just saying the solution (if available) could be posted in the Subversion.
Since (from what I've read) it seems that Tron only occasionally comes here, looks at the bugs (and fixes), and then codes, it'd make things easier by allowing a one-stop-shop to just grab the code needed, and patch it all to his next revision.
The really kewl part is that, once Tron takes the code (and possibly cleans it up a bit before merging it into his own), we can then copy the new revision from his Subversion, and start fresh again.
It'd basically be like hosting an unstable Subversion branch of Stracciatella, and having Tron's official branch being the stable one.
It'd also (hopefully) mean Tron won't need to do as much work, and Stracciatella will be updated more frequently.
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #255924]
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Sun, 11 July 2010 10:20
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mgl |
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Messages:255
Registered:December 2007 Location: France |
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Geoffrey_WhiteIs Tron going to continue development of Stracciatella?
If not, is anyone else willing to pick-up the torch to carry-on Tron's work?
(I'm just curious).
It's rather hard to contribute to stracciatella nowadays: only a third to half of my bug fixes have been included since version 7059 of november 2009. Tron didn't reply to any of my emails since october 2009. Before that time, everything always went fine and Tron wrote most of the bug fixes himself from the reports even before I could investigate them.
For that reason, I would answer no (and no).
Geoffrey_WhiteAre there plans for the introductory cinematic sequences for Jagged Alliance 2 to be played in Stracciatella?
If not... Why?
Someone claimed to have done it on the previous forum of stracciatella. I think Tron didn't reply to the post, and it was not included in the code. A reason could be that the cinematics depend on a third party library and Tron did a lot of work to make stracciatella depend on SDL only.
Geoffrey_WhiteI also read that you can't play the Jagged Alliance 2 music in Stracciatella. Is that true, and if so, why isn't it played by default?
I can hear the music and it's turned on by default. You have to set the music level to 0 in the options screen to stop hearing it.
Geoffrey_WhiteThis would be an awesome thing to have available for Windows (.exe), and a similar thing could be done for both Mac OS X (.dmg), and Ubuntu (.deb), if I'm not mistaken.
If Tron would be willing to do this/these, that'd be amazing, but I believe we all know that it would be extremely time-consuming, and prolly very annoying too, for just one person to do (especially when that same person is the one who does all of the coding), so I don't expect Tron to.
However, if several people still wanted one, and Tron would be willing to post it on the Website, I would be willing to create at-least a Windows installation application (I'd consider an Ubuntu one, but the requests for it would have to be many, because I don't currently have the knowledge to do so, and unfortunately don't have access to a Mac to create the Mac OS X one).
It's another major problem of stracciatella: contributors vanish. It's boring and time-consuming to build the code form every platform where it can run. It takes disk space and requires maintenance too. It's more a job for packagers than for coders: people who don't contribute to the code itself but are able to build it on a number of platforms. We had some, especially for Windows, but they are banned or vanish.
Geoffrey_WhiteSpeaking of data files, exactly which files are required for Stracciatella (I'm actually asking for a list containing each file needed, because I believe I copied quite a few more than I needed to)? In fact, it might be easier to just tell me exactly what files I need to have, and where I need to have them (including the ones that Stracciatella provides).
It's explained in the stracciatella package: you need the data folder installed (extracted) by the game on Windows.
Geoffrey_WhiteAs a final note (and a possible found bug):
In the current release of Stracciatella civilians (at-least in the Rebel Hideout) are not visible for some reason...
I didn't look at that. They were there the last time I went to recruit Miguel and Carlos in my game.
Geoffrey_WhiteIf anything, I'd love to set-up a Subversion to somewhat fork from the current revision in Tron's Subversion; people could add bugfixes, continue to add patches to make it able to be run on even more platforms than it already does (which is very impressive already), and continue Tron's work to make a stable platform for mod development.
bbun already suggested that something like that should be done. It's the problem of disappearing contributors again: as far as I know, bbun and I are the only ones who have ever released bug fixes on the Bear's Pit forum.
If you want to do that, send Tron an email before. His address is in the unix manual file "ja2.6" at the root folder of the sttracciatella package. Edit it if you don't have a "man" program. And try to not disappear yourself...
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #256185]
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Wed, 14 July 2010 09:38
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Geoffrey_White |
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Messages:24
Registered:June 2010 |
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mglIt's rather hard to contribute to stracciatella nowadays: only a third to half of my bug fixes have been included since version 7059 of november 2009. Tron didn't reply to any of my emails since october 2009.
I might be a decent idea to maintain your own SVN for bug-fixes, in that case...
mgl... I would answer no (and no).
That's too bad; I was hoping Tron would continue the wonderful work.
mglSomeone claimed to have done it on the previous forum of stracciatella. I think Tron didn't reply to the post, and it was not included in the code. A reason could be that the cinematics depend on a third party library and Tron did a lot of work to make stracciatella depend on SDL only.
Where is this Forum located? Also, do you have any idea how difficult it'd be to re-enable the cinematics, and what library/libraries would be needed?
mglI can hear the music and it's turned on by default...
I suppose I simply either read wrong, or was reading a post by someone with a bug.
mglIt's another major problem of stracciatella: contributors vanish.
I'll do my best to stick-around for a good while!
mglIt's boring and time-consuming to build the code form every platform where it can run. It takes disk space and requires maintenance too. It's more a job for packagers than for coders: people who don't contribute to the code itself but are able to build it on a number of platforms.
I'd be willing to do it if there were enough requests; I have access to the tools, and the knowledge.
mgl... they are banned or vanish.
Why are they banned?! I don't want to be banned for trying to help!
mgl... you need the data folder installed (extracted) by the game on Windows.
The copy of Jagged Alliance 2 I used for Stracciatella was the Tribsoft (Linux) port.
mglI didn't look at that. They were there the last time I went to recruit Miguel and Carlos in my game.
Maybe this has something to do with my using the Tribsoft port, or maybe it's only when you first visit the hideout at the beginning of the game?
mgl... It's the problem of disappearing contributors again: as far as I know, bbun and I are the only ones who have ever released bug fixes on the Bear's Pit forum.
I don't mind setting-up a SVN sever, and will do my best to not disappear.
Also, I think Mythrell released a bug-fix or two at one point, in addition to bbun and yourself.
bbunI'd say we would be wise to create a new svn repository, simply for bugfixes.
That's an option in the short-run (if you think Tron is going to continue to develop Stracciatella again in the future), but if that's all that happens, the project will become stagnant, and all of Tron's hard work at externalizing data will be for nought.
bbunForking into another project is a completely different discussion, and not in the spirit of Stracciatella.
Two points, both of which may sound a bit confrontational:
1. How is forking (continuing Tron's work on Stracciatella, but without Tron as the lead developer) a completely different discussion compared to setting-up your own SVN for bug-fixes (which would also technically be forking)?
2. I may be new around here, but I know you're not Tron, and that only Tron has the right to say what is, and is not in the spirit of Stracciatella; judging by Tron's website (past and present), my idea about continuing Tron's work by ourselves (forking) would not be against the general spirit of Stracciatella, because we wouldn't be interested in adding new features, etc.; just continuing-on from where Tron left-off (if indeed Tron did leave).
bbunPersonally, I love to play the game on OSX and am very grateful for Tron's work. His idea of platform independency for vanilla JA2 was perfect.
I love playing the game on Xubuntu, and am also very grateful for Tron's work. Why not have even more people be grateful for Tron
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #256497]
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Fri, 16 July 2010 23:26
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mgl |
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Messages:255
Registered:December 2007 Location: France |
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Geoffrey_WhiteWhere is this Forum located? Also, do you have any idea how difficult it'd be to re-enable the cinematics, and what library/libraries would be needed?
I think the forum doesn't exist anymore. It was a link to a german forum on the ja2-homepage of that time, which seems to not exist anymore either. "ja2.dragonsrider.de" ?
The intro was originally played through calls to the SMK or Smack (or whatever its name) library on Windows (the file "smack32.dll" in the ja2 package). I don't know for Linux. SMK is certainly a proprietary lib available on Windows only.
I think Tron doesn't want to make stracciatella depend on another lib than SDL, especially if it's available on a single platform only. But he never said anything on that and the person who claimed to have made the intro playable didn't release anything as far as I know.
Someone who would want to make the intro playable would have to either convert it to a free format if it's possible and or find out how to decode SMK streams. It looks like a very painful task and will probaly never be done.
Geoffrey_WhiteWhy are they banned?! I don't want to be banned for trying to help!
For repeatedly anelkaing people.
(to anelka = to evra, ribery, abidal, gallas or domenech, id est to behave like a French footballer or coach in the World Cup 2010)
Geoffrey_WhiteMaybe this has something to do with my using the Tribsoft port, or maybe it's only when you first visit the hideout at the beginning of the game?
What version do you play, svn r7065 or Mythrell's mod like Dnyarri?
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #256506]
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Sat, 17 July 2010 00:25
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Geoffrey_White |
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Messages:24
Registered:June 2010 |
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mglI think the forum doesn't exist anymore. It was a link to a german forum on the ja2-homepage of that time, which seems to not exist anymore either. "ja2.dragonsrider.de" ?
I believe that's a recent development... Do you think it was archived by the Internet Archive: Wayback Machine?
mglThe intro was originally played through calls to the SMK or Smack (or whatever its name) library on Windows (the file "smack32.dll" in the ja2 package). I don't know for Linux. SMK is certainly a proprietary lib available on Windows only.
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Someone who would want to make the intro playable would have to either convert it to a free format if it's possible and or find out how to decode SMK streams. It looks like a very painful task and will probaly never be done.
Smacker - MultimediaWiki has some decent information about the Smack video (.smk) format.
From what I've read, it's actually also playable at-least one other OS, but it's proprietary, so that doesn't matter too much...
However, I did read that FFmpeg, MEncoder, HandBrake, SUPER, and/or Transcode should be able to convert Smack video files to other formats.
If anyone has any of the above applications, a decent system, and is willing to, they could easily convert the cinematic videos to a free format that is universally playable.
What do you think?
mglWhat version do you play, svn r7065 or Mythrell's mod...?
Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella for Ubuntu (with data-files from the Tribsoft/Linux version) is the exact version I've been using.
Added:
Jeff Roberts (jeffr@radgametools.com) of RAD Game Tools , designers of the Smacker Video Technology says that The RAD Video Tools can, "convert it out to AVI," at which point we can, "convert to whatever."
The RAD Video Tools is freeware/donationware.
[Updated on: Sat, 17 July 2010 03:05] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #256513]
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Sat, 17 July 2010 00:59
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Geoffrey_White |
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Messages:24
Registered:June 2010 |
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Please note: I apologize in-advance for this double-post.
Geoffrey_WhiteAlthough I understand that it isn't legally possible to create a proper all-in-one installation application for Windows (including data files), I was wondering if Stracciatella would gain more support if there was one that was amazingly straightforward, but didn't actually include the necessary data files?...
For example, could an installation application be created that would automagically create the install the files for Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella to the appropriate directory (allowing the user the option to specify a directory, have it ask the user where the necessary data files are located, have the user select the appropriate location (such as their install and/or play CDs), and then have it copy the data files from the user-specified source to the directory specified for Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella (or, at least automagically display a ReadMe.txt containing detailed instructions for the user on how to copy the files themselves)?
If so, I think that would be the best option for new users (while, existing users can simply be given a new JA2.exe with each new release). It could easily be explained as, "New users, download JA2Setup.exe and have your Jagged Alliance 2 CD(s) handy!"
Of course, this is just my two cents, and I do realise it may take quite a bit of time; I was just hoping...
This would be an awesome thing to have available for Windows (.exe), and a similar thing could be done for both Mac OS X (.dmg), and Ubuntu (.deb), if I'm not mistaken.
If Tron would be willing to do this/these, that'd be amazing, but I believe we all know that it would be extremely time-consuming, and prolly very annoying too, for just one person to do (especially when that same person is the one who does all of the coding), so I don't expect Tron to.
However, if several people still wanted one, and Tron would be willing to post it on the Website, I would be willing to create at-least a Windows installation application (I'd consider an Ubuntu one, but the requests for it would have to be many, because I don't currently have the knowledge to do so, and unfortunately don't have access to a Mac to create the Mac OS X one).
I just read-over the JA2 Source-Code License , and don't see where it states that the data-files can't be included in an installation application for our modifications, so long as they are for non-commercial purposes only...
Does that mean I'm free to create an all-in-one installation application for Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella on Windows, Ubuntu, etc.?
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #256544]
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Sat, 17 July 2010 11:48
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Geoffrey_White |
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Messages:24
Registered:June 2010 |
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As I'm sure you've figured-out, I'm the type to contact/e-mail whomever I believe has the answers; thus, I've been in contact with RAD Game Tools regarding the cinematic sequences...
I've also been in contact with Stephan Barnickel (Stephan.Barnickel@bit-Composer.com) of bitComposer Games about the ownership Intellectual Property for the Jagged Alliance series (specifically Jagged Alliance 2).
I asked, "Does bit-Composer Games own the IP of past Jagged Alliance games (such as Jagged Alliance 2)?"
The answer was, "bitComposer games owns the whole Jagged Alliance IP. This contains also the past games."
The answer was the one I was hoping for, and I proceeded to give some information, and ask my follow-up question(s), a portion of the question(s) being about the legality of distributing the data-files, and/or an all-in-one installation application for Jagged Alliance 2: Stracciatella (and possibly other projects as well).
If the next answer(s) is/are the one(s) I am hoping for, a standalone installer for any modification (whether it be a straight mod, new campaign, v.1.13-like enhancements, a modding platform, or a project like Stracciatella) will have the blessing of the current Intellectual Property owners of the Jagged Alliance series.
PS: I've only mentioned part of my follow-up with you all to inform you ahead of time about a potential petition to bitComposer Games to re-license Jagged Alliance 2 under a less restrictive license, should they answer with something along the lines of us not being able to distribute the data-files, etc., under the current license.
Afterthought:
Please do not contact bitComposer Games regarding Jagged Alliance 2 until I have new information; we don't want to scare them away with too many people asking similar questions, etc.
[Updated on: Sat, 17 July 2010 11:51] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Re: Stracciatella Ramblings[message #258631]
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Sat, 07 August 2010 09:48
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Geoffrey_White |
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Messages:24
Registered:June 2010 |
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I have finally received the answer I had hoped for:
Quote: Dear Geoffrey,
sorry for the late response.
We keep it as it is. Means the devs are allowed to compile their own installers for the modifications/campaigns, etc., as complete games for non-commercial purposes.
It would be great if you can keep us updated on future mods.
Best,
Stephan
I'm a tenacious bugger (this was the response to my third e-mail, the first of which I had decided to CC a colleague of Mr. Barnickel in).
As a side-note, this e-mail answers a few comments I made, and/or questions I asked (some of which may seem redundant, but in their respective contexts and e-mails, they aren't too horribly so):
"I was wondering if there was any way bitComposer games would be willing to re-license Jagged Alliance 2 under a less restrictive open source license, so that the various people in the Jagged Alliance community don't feel their hands are tied as much when it comes to modifying (and distributing said modifications) the game."
"The issue we've encountered is that the current license's wording doesn't make it clear whether or not we can distribute the data-files of Jagged Alliance 2 in addition to our modifications.
It would be much better (and would probably gain the Jagged Alliance series a larger fan-base) if we would be able to release our modifications along with the original data-files in an all-in-one installer for the various operating systems we have made it able to be run on such as Windows, Mac OS X, (Free)BSD, and (Ubuntu) Linux, rather than forcing prospective users to copy the data-files from a current installation, and/or the game CD(s), then downloading and applying our modifications.
Please let me know if your interpretation of the license allows us to do this, and if not, if bitComposer games would be willing to re-license Jagged Alliance 2 under a less restrictive license that would allow us to."
"It appears that the license Jagged Alliance 2 was released under by Strategy First allows for binary (including data file) redistribution for non-commercial purposes.
Does bitComposer games agree with the above statement? Are the developers in the community allowed to compile their own installers for the modifications/campagains, etc., as complete games?"
Reading between the lines, it seems that bitComposer Games reads the source-code license the same way I do.
P.S.: If anyone would like me to post the entire e-mail correspondence, I don't have an issue doing-so, so long as Mr. Barnickel agrees to it.
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