Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance 2 » The A.I.M. Library » THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11
| THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28893]
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Wed, 15 February 2006 08:37 
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 abradley |
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Messages:225
Registered:December 2001 |
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THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11
It had it all -- accuracy, ease of use, and a revolutionary "caseless ammunition" system that might have changed the way rifles are made -- but the Heckler & Koch G11 rifle was never put into mass production. What happened to this unique rifle?
Continued Soldier Tech
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Sergeant 1st Class
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28897]
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Sat, 04 March 2006 01:31 
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| Paingod556 |
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Messages:32
Registered:March 2006
Location: Perth, WA |
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The G-11 is proof of German engineering brilliance. It was advanced, robust, and easy to use- during testing, the weapons were heated, frozen, kicked, droped in water and mud, as was the ammunition. Testing was so extreme, several guns and a case of ammo was dropped out of an airplane. And yet, it still out-performed the G3A3.
The reason it never went into production, despite its outstanding field test results, is because the Cold War was about to end, and the German government wasn't concerned anymore about new weapons development. Instead, they went for a cheaper alternative, the G36, a heavily modified 5.56mm G3.
I think, in total, there were about 500 of them built, and not much ammo either.
And in JA2, it does rock hard. 
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28908]
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Mon, 22 May 2006 01:58
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| Paingod556 |
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Messages:32
Registered:March 2006
Location: Perth, WA |
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I found out something that may relate to the 'why we need superfast double/triple burst' question....
In Vietnam, Aussie troops had the SLR L1A1, a licence build of the FN FAL. It was less effective and more cumbersome for jungle combat, as opposed to the M16, but the Aussies kept them because the 7.62mm round will definetly kill someone in one hit, while a 5.56mm is iffy (unless you get a clean headshot)
Hence, more bullets into the same area= better chance of actually killing the target.
Also, the AN-94 uses a fast 2-round burst, since the 5.45mm can't penetrate armour, but 2 bullets hitting the same spot can.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28910]
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Thu, 25 May 2006 07:28
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| mark_kelly_777 |
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Messages:55
Registered:May 2006
Location: Quebec, Canada |
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Well, I certainly love these posts. I, personally, am all for HK's, for guns, Germans are the best (as for many other things in fact, WW2, germans we're the most advanced! Mercedes cars, engines, pretty much everything what!...)
So I have to say I love the G3A3, but my real FAVORITE is the FN-FAL! I found it quite alot better than the steyr-aug. The ONLY competitor would be the C-7 ('cause it's CANADIAN!). As for snipers, forget the M-24 when you have the dragunov! JEEZ the russians whipped Americans THIS time! LOL
CANADIAN and PROUD to be!
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Corporal
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28912]
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Thu, 25 May 2006 16:11
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| JohnnyK3886 |
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Messages:25
Registered:February 2006
Location: VA |
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Quote:Originally posted by +KOMMANDANT+:
The G11 was still a Favorite... and forgot the mention, I love the FN P90! I think it's the only rival to an HK MP5 or UMP... Well, IRL, the FN P90 would prove to be superior to both, as far as technicalities go - a larger magazine, larger caliber bullets that also weigh less, fully ambidextrious design... It's truly a remarkable weapon. Add the possibilities of the RIS system introduced in the P90T series, and you have, in my opinion, the most versatile CQC weapon... probably ever. I'm no expert, though - s'just my two cents.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28914]
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Sat, 27 May 2006 23:17
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| Bob_Marley |
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Messages:28
Registered:May 2006
Location: Essex, UK |
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Quote:Well, IRL, the FN P90 would prove to be superior to both, as far as technicalities go - a larger magazine, larger caliber bullets that also weigh less, fully ambidextrious design... It's truly a remarkable weapon. Add the possibilities of the RIS system introduced in the P90T series, and you have, in my opinion, the most versatile CQC weapon... probably ever. I'm no expert, though - s'just my two cents. The P90 fires smaller calibre ammunition than the MP5 or the UMP. It uses the 5.7x28mm SS190, the MP5 (usually) uses the 9x19mm para and the UMP is seen in .45 ACP, 9x19, 10mm and .40.
The only real competitiors to the P90 are the H&K MP7 and the Russian PP-2000, both of which are part of the same new breed of AP SMGs, the MP7 using 4.7mm ammo and the PP-2000 using a much hotter loaded, saboted 9x19mm round that allows it to keep the punch of larger rounds against unarmored targets, but gives it a slightly shorter effective range when compared to the P90 or MP7.
Any way, the G11 is (from what I have read about it) just about the best assault rifle yet designed.
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28915]
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Thu, 01 June 2006 04:29
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| mark_kelly_777 |
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Messages:55
Registered:May 2006
Location: Quebec, Canada |
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Yes the P90 uses smaller rounds, but they are a bit more like small automatic rifle rounds. I guess the MP5's and UMP's are sometimes better than the P90, AND vice versa! Depends if your enemy is wearing body armor or not, if yes the 5.7x28mm will go through it, but not the 9x19mm or the .40 / .45 (unless you are VERY close, these rounds creae too much drag and lose energy very fast!) I don't prefer the P-90 over the MP5/UMP, but I like them equally! I think SMG's are the better future to guns, while Rifles are still untouched for accuracy and distance, well they are big, encumbering and heavy (usually 7+ Pounds, which after a few hours gets REALLY heavy) SMG's with newer technology could probably attain the same accuracy with a shorter barrel... maybe just a better twist, and better rounds.
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Corporal
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #28916]
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Tue, 06 June 2006 08:43
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| LCJr. |
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Messages:83
Registered:November 2001 |
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Dynamit Nobel still does limited runs of the 4.7mm caseless so somebody is still using them, maybe GSG9.
Apparently the P90 and Five-seveN weren't the commercial success FN had hoped for. In spite of all the hype about never selling it civilians to protect law enforcement the Five-seveN and P90 are now being sold on the open market. A semi-auto carbine version of the P90 is also being made http://www.impactguns.com/store/FNPS90.html
Lately I've been finding spent 5.7x28mm cases at the range.
If you want a real gun that never was it would be the HK-CAWS. Maybe less than a dozen prototypes ever made and you can find 2-3 of them in Arulco:)
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #171965]
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Sun, 20 January 2008 13:25
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| Starwalker |
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Messages:758
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany |
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MardecThe main problem with the G11 was the caseless ammo. If you used the weapons on auto it would keep firing after the 6th round because of the barrel heat igniting the bullets propallant.
I do not think so, the last I read about cook-off with the G11 was that they got the problem solved by changing the propellant.
And a cook-off with the G11 would happen immediately, if it happens at all, because there's no case, other guns may cook-off when you have put them aside already, after the case has gotten heated up by the chamber.
Besides, the barrel is not connected to the chamber, that would be rather bad with that rotating chamber system, so barrel heat can be almost ignored.
EDIT: the G11 has passed all the tests and was proclaimed by the Bundeswehr to be ready for introduction.
It was mostly the fall of the Berlin Wall and the breakup of the GDR that was the downfall of the G11, as the FRG did not want to buy a system they no longer had enemies for 
[Updated on: Sun, 20 January 2008 13:29] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #191323]
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Sun, 20 July 2008 20:31
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| ironmonger |
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Messages:56
Registered:February 2005
Location: Germany |
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Starwalker's right. The funding for the G11 was withdrawn as the German Army suddenly had grown in size after the German re-unification. Still, something had to be done about replacing the aging G3 (which, actually is not an assault rifle in the original sense of the word, but an automatic rifle). The H&K G41 was most soldier's bet for Germany's Next Service Rifle, but H&K unearthed the 1970s H&K36, modified it and turned it into the G36. The H&K36 was supposed to use it's own ammo, the 4.6mm Loeffelspitz (spoon tip), a cased round with a bullet that had a hollowed-out tip cut off at an angle, had an integral optical scope and used a conveyor-belt ammo system fed by disposable casettes (no wonder it did not make it beyond design concept).
The caseless ammo cook-off problem had been solved by the time the project was cancelled (by using a propellant based on the high explosive Hexal, if I remember correctly) and the G11 even was entered into the US Army's ACR trials (but failed).
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Corporal
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #191581]
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Wed, 23 July 2008 13:08
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| FIVE-one |
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Messages:5
Registered:July 2008
Location: France, near Chartres |
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I recently read a book about the G11. The main reason of its so low production is about its ammo :
as it fire a special, caseless ammo, it also brings new problem to the weapon mecanism : the caseless ammo often let a little dust in the barrel, that can ignite in it and bring heavy thermic problems when firing.
Also it brings stability problem in extreme conditions (high heat, sand...) that made this kind of ammo unreliable for military use.
For the On Fire firing AK, the question is easy to solve : the fire is the foregrip and gas trap for the gas operation.
As the fire is only on those part of the AK, it can fire without any problem, however if the fire was on the main frame of the AK (near the chamber), this would be really problematic...
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| Re: THE GUN THAT NEVER WAS: Heckler & Koch G11[message #191608]
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Wed, 23 July 2008 19:43
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| FIVE-one |
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Messages:5
Registered:July 2008
Location: France, near Chartres |
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Indeed it was an 90's book and several magazine on the subject.
Anyway I'm sure that, in a period of uniformisation for the European armies, with the hypothetic formation of the Eurocorps, a new weapon with new kind of ammo would be doomed before its birth : all European armies tend to accept the 5,56 NATO cartridge (even East European armies) and a new munition would bring new constraints and cost to armies, which budgets are constantly being decreased.
I think the Bundeswehr did the right choice by choosing its G36 : it uses the same ammo than other armies and is, from what I've heard, far cheaper than the G11.
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