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| Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #28931]
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Thu, 23 March 2006 20:44 
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 chanman |
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Messages:47
Registered:August 2001
Location: Delta, BC, Canada |
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I've just started playing JA2 (AGAIN!) and just picked up a spate of machine guns (3 RPKs 1 Minimi, 1 HK 21) and was wondering how you guys used the machine guns.
Benefits: large burst, lower burst penalty (I think - I may have tweaked the weapons data), long range.
Drawbacks: high draw cost, heavy, have to use rifle magazines in original JA2.
Except for the C7 however, my rifles either don't have the burst capacity (AUG, AK's, FAL, G3 are all 3 round burst) or don't have the range (Commando, AKSU-74, FAMAS).
I'm thinking of replacing long-ranged rifles with the machine guns, and giving a short rifle/SMG for CQB
Which brings us up to the next point - for close-in fighting, do you use pistols, machine pistols, SMGs (MP5k/MAC-10) or short assualt rifles (FAMAS/Commando/MP53/AKSU-74). I'm gradually leaning towards the rifles because their ammo shows up a lot more often than 9mm/.45 - and I need the AP ability that the rifle calibres give me later on.
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Corporal
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #28933]
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Fri, 24 March 2006 09:06 
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1833
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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vanilla ja2 a very good combination is RPK-74 and AKSU-74, however the latter only performs well in short distances where all the 4 bullets of a burst can hit
these two guns also share the ammo so you need less logistics. maybe use them with an auto weapons guy like Ice oder buzz
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #28934]
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Fri, 24 March 2006 10:30
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| Gunsgg |
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Messages:57
Registered:September 2004 |
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A tricked out machine gun with a psycho like buzz, laying prone, can be a HUGE help in the initial stages of a daylight assault. Get your machine gunner in position, paired with a good sniper, and fire a shot into the air just to let them know you are there. After the smoke clears, send your assault team forward to clean up the stragglers.
I usually just use a team of six. Upon entering battle, I put my machine gunner and sniper into Squad two, leaving my four assault specialist in squad one. I try to have three in my assault team armed with c-7's, and one with a pair of silenced Mac-10's(usually my IMP, ambitextrous NO).
At night, I set up a perimeter defence, and send my IMP solo to clean out the entire sector.
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Corporal
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #28935]
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Fri, 24 March 2006 12:09
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| chanman |
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Messages:47
Registered:August 2001
Location: Delta, BC, Canada |
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my IMP has night ops (expert) and UV goggles. and marksmanship of 98.
I normally just wander around until I find someone, shoot them, and start picking off the enemy from rooftops or in a clearing. If he needs help, I'll use a breaklight for the rest of the mercs.
I have found a use for pistols, but not SMGs - I've stopped using my MP5k's and MAC-10s in favor of the FAMAS and Commando. The pistols still have a lower draw cost so they keep their role as emergency weapons.
My main mercs are kitted out with AUGs for long distance shooting and FAMAS/Commandos for short range. Ivan and Igor use the RPK/AKSU combination, but there's a gap where the RPK takes too many APs and the AKSU is out of range.
I'm wondeirng if I should replace the AUGs with Minimis though. (Although the C7 seems to render both a little redundent.)
That said, it'd be really nice to have a 'draw' feature to get your MGs and sniper rifles ready without firing a shot first.
I've just checked myWeapons. txt and found my tweaks - I lowered the damage of the MAC-10 and upped that of the Thompson to reflect that there should be no way the long barrel of the Thompson has the same range/damage as the MAC-10.
G3 and FN-FAL have their range upped to 42/45 to reflect the performance of the 7.62 NATO an the MP53/G41 have the damage/range adjusted closer to their contemporaries.
Even then, I'm about to abandon the use of 7.62 NATO. Just not enough ammo for my tastes.
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Corporal
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #28941]
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Wed, 05 April 2006 18:12
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1757
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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I agree with CCkeane.
An aimed shot to the head will most often than not bring those suckers down, especially with AP ammo. If you get HP ammo for the first half of the map, it works wonders on almost everybody too.
No need for ambidextrity or autoweapons.
Personally I don't like burst mode anyway. I mean, sometimes you have to use it (against armored enemies, mostly, or against a group that's bunched up in front of you) but it's just a waste of bullets when you consider that a headshot only costs one bullet, and sometimes ammo in this game can suddenly run out, which sucks bigtime!
In Urban Chaos, the M4A1 has the same range as your vision (without goggles) which makes it the best silenced weapon in the game - I've completely stopped doing night missions, now I just do the same tactics as night missions but in daylight to make use of the gun's long range. The enemy never knows I'm coming, they drop silently one by one. Headshots one after the other before they even notice you're there.
If your merc has high marksmanship, you can start dropping your extra aiming points and conserve them for interrupts on anyone coming to investigate that last "thud". 
Maybe I just stink at setting up a "fire and let 'em come" formation - when I do that in later sectors, they can swamp me like crazy and get my men all shot up. And again, the waste of bullets is disturbing. And of course, in some sectors alerting the enemy to your presence is a big no-no (Ja2 Vanilla's ALMA training base comes to mind) and even if the alarm doesn't cause damage, it does make some enemies dig down behind a door where they can interrupt your level-9 mercs like they were rookies. In Vanilla JA2, I used to end up with steyrs for everybody, going in a group and doing headshots only, and there was hell to pay in saves and loads as a result of the noisy modus operandi.
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #28943]
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Wed, 05 April 2006 19:26
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1833
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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depends on how suitable your char and your gun are for autofire
Ivan or Buzz + RPK 74 --> use autofire (i know that the burst penalty for the rpk74 is smaller so technically, your benefit would be higher if bursting with HK21 or M-14 for instance)
Other characters like reaper or Linx + Fn Fal --> Aimed headshots
autofire becomes important IMO once enemies wear spectra helmets. because then, they can take lots of headshots. But usually one burst to the legs from RPK74 sent them down
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #194741]
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Sun, 24 August 2008 05:54
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| Kensuke |
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Messages:40
Registered:May 2007 |
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I like to use SMGs (9mm) as much as possible because of the low weight and lower draw time, but there are times (long range shooting) where a rifle sure comes in handy. I prefer to use sneaky
tactics and take out my enemies is small groups rather than just go charging in. That means stealth and night battles as much as possible.
As for LMGs, they are awesome for area suppression if things go to hell. Have one of your guys lie prone where he has a good field of fire (have the bipod attachment) and go to town. Though you only need a max of one per squad.
- John
[Updated on: Wed, 03 September 2008 09:16] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #195097]
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Thu, 28 August 2008 06:28
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| Kensuke |
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Messages:40
Registered:May 2007 |
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ArquebusI'd say you need one per fireteam, aka 4 man groups.
2 fireteams on assault and a heavy\ admin fireteam in support will save most days and nigths for you.
on topic.
Lmg can easily lay down 20 bullets each round, sometimes alot more. they also has a LOT more ammo 200 shots before you have to reload is a big advantage.
I was referring to JA2 only. If you go with the full six man "squad" you should need only one LMG per squad. Exception: You're defending a site, in which case in might be good to ditch the SMGs and ARs in favor of more LMGs, mortars, and sniper rifles than you might normally have.
Also, the ammo thing is good. You can take further advantage of it by having the LMGs fire the same ammo as your ARs.
- John
[Updated on: Thu, 28 August 2008 06:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #195477]
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Sun, 31 August 2008 16:57
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| systemfehler |
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Messages:117
Registered:September 2007
Location: Hanover, Germany |
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SpaceVikingI actually haven't bothered with LMGs for a while. Too heavy for those who are good with them (like Buzz).
Yeah, I try to avoid putting LMGs in the hand of non-autoweapon experts. In the right hands though, they can be pretty deadly. In 1.13, I had Buzz equipped with an Ares M4 Shrike, it's pretty lightweighted and can single shoot, so it works fine as an assault rilfe if needed to. It only has a capacity of 100 rounds and fires 5.56, but that's lighter anyway and in full auto doesn't make such a difference. Two C-Mags into one saw pouch and off you go. I absolutely fell in love with that combination, and so did Buzz.
I also used Grizzly to shell the enemy and when out of shells, to pin them down with LMG fire. He's strong enough to carry both mortar and LMG.
But yes, one per squad usually is enough. If used right, they can be great and I'd rather get rid of my sniper or mortar guy than of my LMG guy (though that's because autofire is more fun to me). I usually set him up the way he is flanking the enemies rushing my main assault squad. If they come running, a bunch of standing enemies is easy to hit and if they go prone afterwards or because they're surpressd from the front, it's easy to hit them from the side. And there's nothing better to cover your retreat than heavy fire.
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Sergeant
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #196274]
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Fri, 12 September 2008 03:03
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| goodman528 |
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Messages:11
Registered:September 2008 |
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I'm currently using 2 LMGs in my primary 6 man squad: M4 Shriek for Buzz, and G36 RAS (LMG edition) for Henning. Both can load a 100 round C mag without an extra attachment, which means I can fit out both with [ACOG 4x combo scope; Flashlight LAM; Grippod; Rod and spring (in the near future)], that just makes them awesome, absolutely awesome. If your merc is uninjured, you can spray 3 or 4 enemy soldiers every single turn, as long as they are there for you to shoot. Even when injured Buzz can still manage 2 bursts a turn. Though I'm unsure whether they are classified as proper LMGs.
AN-94 and RPK-74 is also a good combo, but they can't have the awesome attachments. And both have high draw cost.
Assult rifles are not the be all and end all. If you have plenty of money and shop at Bobby Rays, you'll find some good SMGs are more effective for night missions or stealth. MPD and MP5 variations comes to mind, but basically anything that can load both AET and cold ammo is excellent. At night, you don't need range beyond ~20 tiles.
I've not used many short rifles, I think HK 416 12" and Commando might work because you can attach picany rail attachments to them, but not on most SMGs.
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Private
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #196394]
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Mon, 15 September 2008 03:59
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| Kensuke |
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Messages:40
Registered:May 2007 |
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goodman528
Assult rifles are not the be all and end all.
I couldn't agree more. 
Quote:
If you have plenty of money and shop at Bobby Rays, you'll find some good SMGs are more effective for night missions or stealth. MPD and MP5 variations comes to mind, but basically anything that can load both AET and cold ammo is excellent.
You don't need cold ammo with SMGs. I don't think there is even cold ammo coded for them. They're very silent with regular ammo. AET is awesome if you can find it, but since I try to keep purchases from BRs down to a minimum I don't use it very much. I'd go with either FMJ or AP. Glasser and JHP are nice early in the game but then become obsolete.
As far as weapons, the best I've found are the FAMAE Silencia, the MP5SD, the MP5K or Skorpion (both for ambi with silencers attached), and the AEK-919 "Kashtan" (underrated 9x18mm SMG with low AP cost).
If you're feeling more exotic and ammo isn't a problem you can go with the SR-2 "Veresk" in 9x21, or the MP7 or P90 (for ambi with silcencers).
For spraying a ungodly amount of bullets all over the place the MAC-10/11 or Micro Uzi are hard to beat.
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I've not used many short rifles, I think HK 416 12" and Commando might work because you can attach picany rail attachments to them, but not on most SMGs.
For night and CQB, all you need is a reflex sight, a LAM 200, a silencer, and maybe a folding stock/forgrip depending on the weapon. Save the scopes for the riflemen.
- John
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Corporal
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #196598]
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Thu, 18 September 2008 23:37
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| goodman528 |
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Messages:11
Registered:September 2008 |
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Kensuke
Quote:
....Bobby Rays.... cold ammo...
You don't need cold ammo with SMGs. I don't think there is even cold ammo coded for them. They're very silent with regular ammo. AET is awesome if you can find it, but since I try to keep purchases from BRs down to a minimum I don't use it very much. I'd go with either FMJ or AP. Glasser and JHP are nice early in the game but then become obsolete.
As far as weapons, the best I've found are the FAMAE Silencia, the MP5SD, the MP5K or Skorpion (both for ambi with silencers attached), and the AEK-919 "Kashtan" (underrated 9x18mm SMG with low AP cost).
If you're feeling more exotic and ammo isn't a problem you can go with the SR-2 "Veresk" in 9x21, or the MP7 or P90 (for ambi with silcencers).
For spraying a ungodly amount of bullets all over the place the MAC-10/11 or Micro Uzi are hard to beat.
Quote:
...short rifles... ...picany rail attachments....
For night and CQB, all you need is a reflex sight, a LAM 200, a silencer, and maybe a folding stock/forgrip depending on the weapon. Save the scopes for the riflemen.
- John
I don't know the exact game data on silencing SMGs, but I've had a couple of missions of using AET ammo where because it's either not as silent, or because it shot through the enemy and hit the wall behind, they pulled the alarm on me. I'm a fan of the MP5 series because they all use 9x19mm, it's an old habit from my last game where I had little money and didn't use BR much, so had to use whatever I can find.
In my current game I've given myself $1million at the start, so basically as long as I stay away from thermobaric and mortars, I have unlimited money. I'm finding 2 silenced HK UCP (4.6mm AET) for ambi mercs; MP5SD (9x19mm) for the stealth specialists; Metal Storm instead of a Machine Gun and silenced MP7 (4.6mm) for everyone else; is a good combo at night, though I'm playing less stealth and more spray and pray, the silencers are really used as muzzle flash suppressors. Another thing, How about a stealth team with only crossbows and throwing weapons? That'd be quite cool.
With short rifles like HK 416 10" (12" doesn't exit, my mistake) and commando, you can attach the ultimate combo of attachments: [Reflex sight; 7x Scope; Flashlight LAM; Grippod], both the 7x scope and the flashlight gives you a much bigger night operation bonus than just a LAM 200. Even if you want a faster gun and drop the Reflex sight and 7x scop for an ACOG combo, then put a rod and sping or folding stock in the now empty slot, you'd still have a much better aiming and night bonus. And you can load 5.56 match ammo to increase your range to ~37 tiles. So I'm now thinking short rifles are very over powered compared to SMGs if you are not concerned with stealth or realism. I quite like a touch of realism, so I'm sticking to SMGs for the time being.
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Private
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #196894]
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Mon, 22 September 2008 06:14
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| FelixDrake |
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Messages:33
Registered:September 2008 |
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Uses for bursts and the guns to do it with(non 1.13 of course):
silenced:Mac-10, APreduced,laser scope, silencer, APammo
psycho without autoweapons(main merc with double night ops for example), RPK-74 (low burst penalty)
EVERY OTHER BURST SITUATION:APreduced,laser scope,bipod,(maybe barrel extended) C-7
If you want a burst to get mileage, here are some things to remember.
1)make the shot with someone with psycho/autoweapons. Heavy weapons skill only gives bonuses to LAW, Grenade launchers, and mortars according to JA website spoilers.
2)a 5 round burst isn't as much better than a 3 round as you may think, especially with a pyscho with on autoweapons skill. First 3 shots are often what does the head splattering. I had oodles of fun doing 3 shot bursts with my laser scoped AK-74. (my favorite gun when it was that or an aksu).
Guns I have found work REALLY well for the time you get them:mp5k,mac-10,ak-74,steyr-aug,c-7,RPK-74.
3)ALMOST all guns have the same burst penalty. IIRC Exceptions are some of the really bad ones like thompson,type-85(high penalty). Low penalty are minimini and RPK-74, no penalty, mike's gun.
A PSYCHO should have a 3 shot burst gun or an RPK-74. An autoweapons expert should have a 5 shot burst gun ... or an RPK-74 >
4)Scopes do NOT help bursts (Except, I THINK if you aim and your merc goes psycho, they get the AIM bonus on the BURST). Laser scopes(+20), lying prone(+20), and a bipod(+10) gives you a total of +50% to hit. That's more than the burst penalty.
Hope this gives some insight into how to burst, when to burst, with whom and with what to burst.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Short Rifles vs. SMGs, Assualt Rifles vs. LMGs[message #196896]
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Mon, 22 September 2008 06:31
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| FelixDrake |
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Messages:33
Registered:September 2008 |
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Oh yes, that's the other thing. Someone comes around a corner. He has to die and he's wearing camo, which means he's probably wearing good armor. You got your interrupt because of the place you were, but that can end easily... how do you stop him? 2 options
1)5 shot point blank burst to the head... tends to kill with AP ammo, don't care what yer wearin' and in a lot less AP than taking single shots.
2)5 shot point blank burst to the legs. He will be knocked down and someone you can afford to nobly sacrifice will grab his (probably something like a c-7,p90,fn-fal, or something else sick and fun). A burst to either of these places tends to induce enough AP loss that he doesn't interrupt your interrupt, grab a knife and slit you open (or burst YOU point blank to the face).
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Private 1st Class
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