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Traits and NCTH[message #298855]

Mon, 13 February 2012 21:59

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

what is the exact effect of the various different character traits under NCTH, especially all those with bonus cth (auto weapons, gunslinger etc.)? do they all translate into + x PercentCap? the ingame tooltips aren't changing if i enable NCTH. so far i only found these infos in the CTHConstants.ini and in the HAM 5 Alpha Thread:

[Sniper]

- ? SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER
+ 10? PercentCap if using a scoped weapon
- 5% effective range to target
- 1 click needed to reach max. aim for rifle type guns (all two-handed ones except heavy weapons)

[Ranger]

- ? SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER

[Aggressive]

?

[Psycho]

- 3 PercentBase
- 5 PercentCap

....

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #298856]

Mon, 13 February 2012 22:15

Blue_Fox is currently offline

Messages:538
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands

Check in Folder Data_1.13/Skills_Settings.INI

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First Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #298858]

Mon, 13 February 2012 22:36

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

yes, but i think these values are mostly for OCTH...

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #298944]

Tue, 14 February 2012 13:57

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

probably i wasn't clear enough:

for example the ingame tooltip for the sniper trait states:

a) + 5% chance to hit with rifles
b) + 10% chance to hit with sniper rifles
c) - 5% effective range to target with all weapons
d) + 10% aiming bonus per aim click (except for handguns)
e) + 5% damage on shot per every aim click after first
f) - 25% APs needed to chamber a round with bolt-action rifles
g) adds one more aim click for rifle-type guns

all these values are also found in the Skills_Settings.INI. however, that seems to be only the data for OCTH.

a+b) there seems to be no such thing as bonus chance to hit (i think ToHitBonus is meant with that in items.xml) in NCTH, instead i found FlatBase, PercentBase, FlatAim, PercentCap.
d+e+g) make little sense under NCTH. you want to keep the number of aimlevels as low as posssible, so these 3 points would punish you outright.
c+f) work under both CTH systems, so they can be ignored for this case.

in the HAM ALPHA thread however i found:

Headrock

Quote:
According to the tooltip the sniper trait gives an aiming bonus for everything except pistols.

Those tooltips were written for OCTH. I'm not sure what they do in NCTH since the effect of traits on NCTH was not added by me.
I'll see if I can figure it out for you later tonight.

Headrock

Ok, I've checked the NCTH functions, and this is what I found regarding this trait:

1) It raises the CTH "Cap". [..] Note however that this bonus is only applied when using a scope. [...]
2) It reduces the "visual" range to the target [..].

in the CTHConstants.ini i found:

Quote:

; The Scope Range Multiplier is applied against a scopes magnification to determine
; the scopes minimum effective range. Sniper and Hunter training has a slight effect
; on this.[...]

if i remember correctly the psycho trait gave bonus-cth, but now under NCTH it gives penelaties and the list goes on.

all that is poorly documented or not at all, therefore i opened this thread to ask for the remaining traits Smile

Smile

.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #298951]

Tue, 14 February 2012 15:18

Messages:1960
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany

d+e+g make very sense to me as an aimingCLICK is not the same as the aiming level attribute of a gun (the line in UDB with those several coulored reticles).
And IIRC the sniper trait reduces the aiminglevel of any equipped gun by 1 (so this is indeed a bonus).

Psycho: AFAIK the psycho new trait gives no bonus at all; the autofire bonus has been shifted to the personality 'agressive' in STOMP.

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Sergeant Major

Questions about exact trait effects with NCTH[message #299018]

Wed, 15 February 2012 11:07

Istrebitel is currently offline

Messages:212
Registered:December 2009
Location: Russia, Saint-Petersburg

Greetings.

I have questions about the exact effect of some STOMP traits in NCTH.

1) "Auto weapons" says it reduces burst and auto penalty. Do we still have that penalty in NCTH? I guess not since i think it was replaced by recoil/counterforce system. So what does this part of the perk do? Nothing? Or is it of use?
2) What does "5% CTH" or "10% CTH" from perks do in NCTH where there is no CTH? Does it increase my sum of stats (mrk, dex, wiz, exp) by 5% or does it add flat 5% to some value used somewhere in the process, or else?
3) What does stealth mean? Like, -5% stealth on flashlight or insight lam, or 25% stealth from stealthy perk? It says "move completely undetected if unnoticed" - does this mean i have to be 25% closer to the enemy for him to see me, or does this mean i have a 25% chance per each line of sight check to be unseen even if im in los of the enemy?
4) Aggressive personality - better CTH with burst/autofire, penalty on some assignments. What is the exact penalty (a percent of merc effectiveness? a flat minus?) and what is the "better CTH" in NCTH where there is no CTH?
5) Perks that "add something per aim click" are now less useful, right? Because before perk added aim clicks - now it removes them, since in new system less aimclicks is better? So for example siper perk adds damage for each aimclick after first but it also makes you take less aim clicks, does this mean that i'd get more damage from a weapon if i attach a folding stock to add another aimclick (which will add another bonus to damage from perk) right?

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299031]

Wed, 15 February 2012 12:41

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

so what is an aimclick then? i thought it was just another term for each individual aimlevel you can spent your APs on.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299051]

Wed, 15 February 2012 14:28

Messages:1960
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany

Yes that's the same that i mean by aimclick: right clicking and spending a few APs for a better aim on target.
But if you meant the same by that, why do you consider getting more damage or better aim per click (thus needing less aim clicks for a good shot) a malus?
Cannot follow you there.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Questions about exact trait effects with NCTH[message #299055]

Wed, 15 February 2012 14:56

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

[redundant post after topic merging]

[Updated on: Wed, 15 February 2012 16:20] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299066]

Wed, 15 February 2012 16:16

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

3) the sources i found are contradictory:

Skills_Settings.INI states: "[...] gives better cover."
the (older) description in the JA2 v1.13 INI Editor has the similar: "stealth value [...] will decrease the sight range of an enemy (in percentage)."
but the (younger) ingame tooltip: "Note that this does NOT change the character's visibility, only the amount of noise they make while sneaking."

wrong descriptions or different mechanics? i have no idea. i guess it's a terrain-type independent all-purpose camouflage value.

@ sam
i meant:

afaik, in OCTH the aiming cth is tied to each indivual aimlevel. thus a weapon with a high number of aimlevels is beneficial, because i get a huge aiming cth.
in NCTH the aiming cth is spread between the aimlevels. thus a weapon with a high number of aimlevels is unfavourable, because i have to spend more APs to get the same aiming cth as with a weapon with lower number of aimlevels.

"+ 10% aiming bonus per aim click" and "+ 5% damage on shot per every aim click after first" benefits the old system.
but it would act against the new system, because it gives a very small bonus for a otherwise completly unfavourable property. it also contradict itself, because the trait lowers your number of aimlevels in NCTH.

i am sure that mechanic isn't in place anymore with NCTH activated, but the tooltips don't reflect that/are "outdated". thus i opened this thread to ask for the new mechanics.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299068]

Wed, 15 February 2012 16:51

Messages:1960
Registered:March 2009
Location: Middle of Germany

But then again, aimlevels are not aiming clicks.
As you wrote, aimlevels is a property of a gun. Aim click is an action the player performs (by spending APs)
Better not confuse those (in the discussion).

As i read the STOMP description: Regardless of the gun the sniper wields - for every aim click he is performing in the shooting process his target circle in NCTH will be a few pixels smaller than without the trait and he is a little more likely to score more damage.

I cannot tell you in which variables in the calculation this will go.

It is possible - dunno - that this for calculation is transferred into "the value aiminglevel of the equipped gun is reduced by 1 (UDB is telling this)" but this does not make the description senseless or contradictory. IMO.

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Sergeant Major

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299074]

Wed, 15 February 2012 17:11

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

i think for the point i made the differentiation between player-performed aimclicks and maximum aimlevels is irrelevant, because the latter determines the amount of the first. you can simple exchange both terms and the statements made would still be unaltered (of course you don't have to spend them all/can afford to spend them always, but this is moot for the point of the argument).

but i think we are getting a little offtopic here.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299778]

Tue, 21 February 2012 21:43

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

i searched in the ja2svn and found the following:

all ToHitBonus from traits will be splitted. 40% of that value will be used for the snapshot-part calculation and 60% for the aiming-part calculation.
so for example this from OCTH

+10% chance to hit with weapon type x

becomes that in NCTH

+4 PercentBase with weapon type x
+6 PercentCap with weapon type x

[Gunslinger/Sniper aiming bonus per aim click]
this does no longer apply under NCTH, instead it grants a bonus to the aiming cap. following formula will be used:

Bonus to PercentCap = ((99 - current PercentCap based on character skills) x old aiming bonus per aim click)/max. possible cth

however this bonus will only be given if using a scoped weapon and the scope isn't used under it's "effective" range (< scope mag factor x7).
(max. possible cth is an external value that can be modified in the INI-Editor. without the new trait system activated the value 25 from the cthconstants.ini will be used instead of aiming bonus per aim click.)

[Socialable]
+2 PercentBase, +3 PercentCap if other mercs are nearby
+0.8 PercentBase, +1.2 PercentCap if alone

[Loner]
+2 PercentBase, +3 PercentCap if alone
+0.8 PercentBase, +1.2 PercentCap if other mercs are nearby

[Aggressive]
+2 PercentBase, +3 PercentCap for burst/auto-fire

[Show-off]
+2 PercentBase, +3 PercentCap with mercs of opposite gender nearby
+0.8 PercentBase, +1.2 PercentCap with mercs of same gender nearby

[Heat intolerant]
-6 PercentBase, -9 PercentCap if in tropical sectors

[Fear of Insects]
-2 PercentBase, -3 PercentCap if in tropical sectors
-20% max. action points if in tropical sectors

[Psycho]
-3 PercentBase, - 5 PercentCap

[Dauntless]
+2 PercentBase, +3 PercentCap FOR OPPONENTS targeting him/her

however, i'm a complete amateur in reading these code lines, so the facts stated above may be partly or completly wrong.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #299992]

Wed, 22 February 2012 23:22

JohnnySideburns

Messages:19
Registered:September 2007

so gunslinger only works with scopes..? that sort of narrows down the amount of guns that skill will benifit then.

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Private

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300002]

Thu, 23 February 2012 00:03

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

what? Gunslinger aiming bonus per aim click applies only to scoped weapons.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300100]

Thu, 23 February 2012 19:03

JohnnySideburns

Messages:19
Registered:September 2007

thats what you quoted no?

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Private

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300102]

Thu, 23 February 2012 19:39

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

i'm confused what you want to know excactly^^. if you read the posts you can figure out what the gunslinger trait does:

+4 PercentBase, +6 PercentCap with pistols/revolvers
+2 PercentBase, +3 PercentCap with machine pistols (single shot-only)
additional small bonus to percent cap if using a scoped pistol/revolver/machine pistol
- 15% ap cost for firing pistols/revolvers
+ 10% weapon range for pistols/revolvers
- 15% draw cost for pistols/revolvers
- 25% reload cost for pistols/revolvers
- 1 aimlevel needed to reach max. aiming cth

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300107]

Thu, 23 February 2012 21:33

JohnnySideburns

Messages:19
Registered:September 2007

ye thats what i figured. no confusion, it just doesn't feel like its working that much, i tried upping the relevant skills to outrageous amounts in skill settings and the result was hardly noticable, and I think it is sad that you need a scope to get the aim bonus..

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Private

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300139]

Thu, 23 February 2012 22:55

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

this may be because these weapon types in general have a very low weapon accuracy. this can't be overcome by your increasements on the shooter's side.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300148]

Thu, 23 February 2012 23:29

JohnnySideburns

Messages:19
Registered:September 2007

aahh i see, got it. But then I'd say that it is somewhat unfair that the guns have been put into these categories of accuracy, where sniper rifles are pushing 100, pistols are around 2-20 and assault riffles somewhere inbetween. it makes sence, but then again the guns should be at least somewhat fairly accurate within their respective effective range?

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Private

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300149]

Thu, 23 February 2012 23:51

Strohmann is currently offline

Messages:280
Registered:August 2011
Location: Division Thought Crimes

working as intended, they make up for it with low: gun handling, draw cost, firing cost, number of aim levels etc.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Traits and NCTH[message #300152]

Fri, 24 February 2012 01:21

JohnnySideburns

Messages:19
Registered:September 2007

I disagree, the way it currently is it is impossible to hit people at short range with weapons made for short range, when it works like this the random factor and the gun type wielded plays a lot more in than the skill of the shooter... so what im gonna do is: go through the accuracy of all the guns and add the old accuracy bonus to 87, so the most accurate guns land at 99 and the worst at 85. making the NCTH play a lot more like oct but with all the cool features.

ps. using the HAM 5 with Better shot distribution inside aperture. and cth constants with lower range coeficient and higher gravity coeficient

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Private

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