Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?
| EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300172]
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Fri, 24 February 2012 07:23
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Every time I've "come back" to this game I find evidence of progress and great change with 1.13 here at the Bear's Pit. The last time around I've been impressed with NCTH, among other things.
One thing (actually, one of the only things) that I think seems... somehow "off" is the current progression of weaponry through the game, with both enemy gun choices, sometimes merc starting equipment choices (despite the neat new 5-options thing), and coolness/ availability at BR's. It's really the one thing that strikes me as feeling not so impressive. In fact, I don't think it's really changed at all since the last time I played the game. It certainly doesn't seem to have NCTH in mind, at all, and I think it really should since NCTH comes with 1.13 by default, now. If the team wants to make a strong case for NCTH with people who are trying it for the first time, a good first impression could be had by properly balancing the weapon and attachment progression so that everything from pistols to sniper rifles all make their peculiarities in the NCTH system apparent.
Are there any current plans to update this progression for the next 1.13 release? Is this even something the team cares about? I'm not pointing fingers, or anything... I'm just curious. I was guessing maybe it was just on the back-burner, so to speak, until NCTH matures somewhat, but that was just a guess (and I'm certainly no mind reader).
I know a lot of people use AIMNAS and other mods that provide customized content in this area, but I also tend to think that a lot of people just play a stock 1.13 game, and also aren't necessarily interested in making their own custom content, but do want an "install and play" option that has good balance and such.
If this is an area that the 1.13 team is interested in, and maybe just hasn't had time/ energy for, I'm willing to do the grunt work if others are willing to pitch in some opinions/ ideas/ feedback. I've made my own enemy weapon choice lists before, and found that they definitely enhance my play experience, but I admit that the scope of what I have in mind is... somewhat more ambitious, and perhaps even a bit intimidating to attempt entirely by myself, compared to my usual little tweaks and customizations.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300181]
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Fri, 24 February 2012 11:25 
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Off_Topic |
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Messages:996
Registered:January 2009 |
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Quote:One thing (actually, one of the only things) that I think seems... somehow "off" is the current progression of weaponry through the game, with both enemy gun choices, [color:#009900]sometimes merc starting equipment choices (despite the neat new 5-options thing)[/color],
What improvements do you suggest? I tried to make them varied and viable choices.
K1 (Few exceptions) were the 1.13 items, don't know who put them together.
K2 (In most cases) is their vanilla load out.
K3+K4 are normally variations on weapons, kits.
K5 is aimed at the mid-late game when you have more cash, a good mix of all equipment with a special item. (or indeed for novice players who may need an advantage at the start)
Take Wolf for example:
K1:1.13 Ump/repair/1st aid (all rounder)
K2:Vanilla Spas/Repair/1st aid (all rounder)
K3:Spas/lockbuster ammo/flashbangs (no repair kit) (Breaching)
K4:Ump/revolver/flash suppressor (no repair kit)(Night ops/assault)
K5:Mix of all his skills + a neat in built scoped gun for the eagle eyed player.
To be honest, i didn't get much feedback/input at the time of putting those kits together, so any complaints i'll take with a pinch of salt.
As to weapon progression, Headrock was working on that, making it so it is not just based on distance to Meduna. In the past i have edited enemy...xml But distance to Meduna overrides that, making it somewhat redundant.
If you're volunteering to maximise NCTh, i'd be up for giving you a hand. People seem happy with what wil has done for UC. Maybe that's a godd starting point.
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300195]
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Fri, 24 February 2012 16:50 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Wow, that went a long way towards answering my questions.
Ok, I had forgotten that Headrock was working on that weapon-by-sector thing. That sort of eliminates the xml file I'm used to working with, right? But I believe someone will still need to make some sort of judgement call as to what is found where, and why. Some sort of curve or progression. While the enemygunchoices.xml uses distance to Meduna as a primary method of determining what a given sector will find, what other method is there, really? Ok, so it means that if you conquer Cambria first, you probably aren't going to find anything ground breaking in Chitzena or Drassen. But then, would you expect to? At some level, most people conquer cities in roughly a slightly closer progression to Meduna, so that sort of thing often makes sense, anyway.
So setting weapons by sector will pretty much amount to a similar idea.
Quote:What improvements do you suggest? I tried to make them varied and viable choices.
Mostly the choices are pretty good... I'm not suggesting that there's a lot of work needed here. I was actually really pleased to find more shotguns mixed in with the weapon selection part of things, too. Mostly what I notice is that any kit with a decent rifle on a more expensive merc is wasted for an Omerta drop unless they come with a scope of some kind. Single shots with a standard AK or what have you are really not much more accurate than with pistols... in fact if I'm reading the right topics, that seems to be some of the earliest criticisms for NCTH? I understand that there was to be some sort of +10% to hit thing in the works to help longarms out, and maybe that addresses the problem, but to be honest I don't feel a ton of confidence in that solution. Proper optics balance seems a key factor to me until it gets sorted.
Quote:If you're volunteering to maximise NCTh, i'd be up for giving you a hand. People seem happy with what wil has done for UC. Maybe that's a godd starting point.
Not sure to what you are referring... I'd need to be pointed in the right direction, there.
Quote:IIRC they started a "project" in the AFS section to resort guns by coolness to better reflect NCTH.
That's a huge part of the process, obviously, because what BR offers for sale (and when) is a broad overview of what your weapon progression from enemy drops might resemble, and it also has to be somewhat balanced against scavenged equipment anyway. I'll have to go find that topic... probably interesting to listen in on.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300208]
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Fri, 24 February 2012 18:36 
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2808
Registered:September 2004 Location: Canada |
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I've abandoned the stock v1.13 item ordering for my own (to ease the task of modding during the frequent spells where the mod exceeded XML Editor support), so it would be easier to use the Google spreadsheets as a guide to set the coolness values using the XML Editor. In fact that's how I implemented the new coolness values in the first place, spreadsheet open on the left, XML Editor on the right. Note also that I've got my own naming convention for many guns as well.
EDIT: remember that AFS being a mod, I do have more freedom to do things like redo coolness/EGC for NCTH (as Headrock intended). Stock v1.13 does not have that freedom, leading to another source of frustration with NCTH. Quite frankly, what makes sense in NCTH may not make sense for OCTH, so there will need to be some split. Better to have stock v1.13 stick to OCTH, and have mods be designed for NCTH with no compromises... if the modder chooses.
[Updated on: Fri, 24 February 2012 18:43] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300280]
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Sat, 25 February 2012 08:39 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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wil473EDIT: remember that AFS being a mod, I do have more freedom to do things like redo coolness/EGC for NCTH (as Headrock intended). Stock v1.13 does not have that freedom, leading to another source of frustration with NCTH. Quite frankly, what makes sense in NCTH may not make sense for OCTH, so there will need to be some split. Better to have stock v1.13 stick to OCTH, and have mods be designed for NCTH with no compromises... if the modder chooses.
But... that's my point. Stock 1.13 *should* have that freedom, especially because it's including a NCTH option (in fact, it's the default option!) That 1.13 would include an option like NCTH that it wasn't capable of making fully functional without additional mods or extensive tweaking seems silly to me. I mean, the idea is to continually add functionality of different sorts to the game, yes? Well... I tend to think that things like the current coolness/EGC are not functional, in many respects even for OCTH. I'd think tweaking them for stock 1.13 to add functionality would be, well... desirable.
Off_TopicI think it would destroy a lot of the fun/balance of the game if you landed in Omerta with scoped weapons.
Right, but my premise is that non-scoped long arms are similarly not balanced... just not balanced in the other direction. If I pay a premium price for a good merc with good equipment, like say Ivan with an AK, I'm going to be pretty annoyed when I drop into Omerta and find that he's not a ton more accurate than his less experienced and WAY cheaper nephew with a Grach... and when this happens to newer players, many of them are going to declare that "NCTH pretty much sucks" and never give it another chance. Which does the people trying to develop and promote NCTH no justice at all, because it really is a great set of ideas that deserves tons of attention (and admittedly, work).
And by your own statement, if it's the case that scoped weapons in Omerta would destroy the balance of the game, then there should be *no* options for them. And yet a select number of mercs, such as Lynx or Scope, can already get them. Even the aforementioned Ivan, I believe, if you pick the right kit. My point is that almost any kit with an advanced and expensive long arm should probably include an optic of some kind, even if it's just a 2x, or the kit will feel like it amounts to something of a big rip off. I'm definitely not saying that every submachine gun or shotgun needs one, but if you are paying for, say, Reaper... you want his HK 416 (or whatever he has... I forget) to feel kind of lethal by comparison to other mercs. And it really won't feel like that without a scope.
Solid example: I started a campaign recently that fell apart rapidly as I continued to mod and adjust the game, but I was playing with early rebels on, and my team featured both Miguel and Fox from Omerta onwards. Miguel had his default AKM, unscoped. Fox had her pistols. Despite Miguel's better scores in marksmanship, his character level, or the fact that his AKM had better range and accuracy... Fox was *way* more lethal when Miguel was taking aimed shots, even at a distance, basically due to taking two shots at a go. In fact, Fox had the highest kill count on the team, despite several mercs taking advantage of SMGs, carbines, and other solid weapons. That felt so wrong to me that I thought maybe I had screwed something up in my initial pass through the ini options. Even with short bursts, Miguel had a hard time connecting. It basically came down to him using long bursts, which proved unsustainable from an ammo standpoint, and left me abandoning the weapon until scopes became available.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300292]
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Sat, 25 February 2012 12:51 
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Off_Topic |
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Messages:996
Registered:January 2009 |
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Quote:And by your own statement, if it's the case that scoped weapons in Omerta would destroy the balance of the game, then there should be *no* options for them. And yet a select number of mercs, such as Lynx or Scope, can already get them. Even the aforementioned Ivan, I believe, if you pick the right kit.
I think this is more an issue with NCTH than weapon choices if a pistol out performs an assault rifle at range. There are scopes available, normally in Kit 5, or in some cases K3+4.
While i agree you should get some bang for your buck, having Ivan start with a scoped weapon is a bit of overkill on day 1.
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #300307]
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Sat, 25 February 2012 15:58 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Off_TopicI think this is more an issue with NCTH than weapon choices if a pistol out performs an assault rifle at range. There are scopes available, normally in Kit 5, or in some cases K3+4.
While i agree you should get some bang for your buck, having Ivan start with a scoped weapon is a bit of overkill on day 1.
There's definitely more work to be done on NCTH. And if it changes exceptionally from what it is now... if it finds a way to address iron site accuracy, what I'm getting at concerning scopes might not be as relevant. However, I'd stand by the rest of the desired changes... enemy gun choices, coolness levels, etc.
On your second statement, though... your opinion is that it would be overkill. And yet, you can hire him, can't you? This game is open ended for a reason. There's many ways to play it, right or wrong.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301797]
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Thu, 15 March 2012 17:30 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Ugh. So now, after having completed the task of beating the game once, I have the task before me of a new enemyweaponchoices.xml file that needs to be created, so that my next campaign I'm not using only Russian weapons the entire way through.
Looking for a starting point, and it's difficult with everything sort of in a state of flux.
this seems like a reasonable starting point for having NCTH values in place, but I'm not sure it is quite what I'm looking for, which is something closer to what Headrock mentioned when he suggested early sniper rifles should be available by coolness 3, not 6.
I'm looking for something that has older SMGs (burp gun, tommy guns) and basic rifles (stuff like the M1, Mini-14, SKS, etc.) in place as early as Omerta, and works up from there.
It also means revisiting the coolness of when scopes are available at BRs. A rifle is only as good as your optic in NCTH, really. Having range doesn't mean squat if you can't aim somewhat accurately at that range, and before automatic fire becomes available to rifles, they are otherwise too much of a liability compared to the faster firing pistols (when it comes down to volume of fire, rifles take too much time during an iron sites engagement.)
Any suggestions as to how I should organize this? I try to get these projects done quickly so that I can get back to playing.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301809]
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Thu, 15 March 2012 20:52 
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sabresandy |
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Messages:65
Registered:February 2012 |
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It seems silly for both teams to have only pistols and watch the gunfight turn into a close-range farce in Omerta and Drassen, so yes, I agree on having older rifles and SMGs in Drassen and Omerta--bolt-actions, SKSes, Winchester 94s, and the like. Additionally, FN FALs and other 7.62 rifles are given an absurdly high coolness value at the moment, a holdover from the pre-aimed-autofire days. I suggest having battle rifles be available before assault rifles, along with 2x scopes.
Also, it should be safe to have RPD and PKM machine guns available midway through. Neither gun can mount optics aside from the reflex sight, and neither are good enough for the late-game role (which is what the AUG HBAR, RPK-74, and Minimi are for). Scout rifles, too; 7x scopes would be lovely and rare. I've modded in the BAR as another cheap-and-cheery machine gun, and it's working out fine.
Don't forget to modify the mercs' starting equipment and your starting cash, too. Giving mercs good rifles to start with will make things expensive. Eventually the entire weapons list will have to be overhauled, but that's a discussion for another day.
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Corporal
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301821]
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Fri, 16 March 2012 04:54 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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SabreIt seems silly for both teams to have only pistols and watch the gunfight turn into a close-range farce in Omerta and Drassen, so yes, I agree on having older rifles and SMGs in Drassen and Omerta--bolt-actions, SKSes, Winchester 94s, and the like. Additionally, FN FALs and other 7.62 rifles are given an absurdly high coolness value at the moment, a holdover from the pre-aimed-autofire days. I suggest having battle rifles be available before assault rifles, along with 2x scopes.
*Valley girl accent* Like, seriously, I know, right?
Quote:Also, it should be safe to have RPD and PKM machine guns available midway through. Neither gun can mount optics aside from the reflex sight, and neither are good enough for the late-game role (which is what the AUG HBAR, RPK-74, and Minimi are for).
Hadn't thought of that before, but great point.
Quote:Scout rifles, too; 7x scopes would be lovely and rare.
The Steyr Scout, specifically, you mean? Or... referring to something else? Also, how does one make the 7x scope rare, easily?
I'm almost thinking that the 7x scope should come before the 2x. It's the semi-auto, longer ranged stuff that I'm worried about. Submachine guns can use automatic fire to home in on the enemy location, but spending a boatload of APs for a single shot that has an aperture as wide as 5 enemies is a waste of time, especially because range counts for nothing anymore. You might as well spend less APs and take the same shot with a pistol, and then take two more shots just like it.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301825]
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Fri, 16 March 2012 07:44 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Update: I'm currently compiling the list of weapons I want to use in my table, and sorting them into categories by appearance on the chart I linked to.
The problem is, the chart I linked to from the AFS thread has some... rather poor judgements on coolness values, at least to my way of thinking. So a straight up copy of them is a bad idea, especially since I'm not playing with the alterations to the weapons that AFS is no doubt using.
So... I suppose now I'm looking to maybe go back to scratch, and figure out my own system from the ground up. Here's my thoughts, as far as when things start to become available.
0: basic pistols, pump action shotguns with buckshot, older rifles and SMGs. old fashioned scopes (PEM, etc.) that fit the rifles, and no scopes yet available for anything else. This keeps pistols on the role of sidearm, which is their proper role. A pistol is not your main weapon if you are a soldier. Scopes are available only for rifles, to take advantage of their range, properly.
1: machine pistols, more modern rifles. Mostly it's a little bit more variety, with the same sorts of weapons from level 0.
2: semi auto shotguns, 2x scopes. 2x scopes start to give your weapons a bit more accuracy, in general. A 2x scope on a modern weapon platform like the Beowulf .50, or the HEZI makes a solid early weapon.
3: battle rifles, 7x scopes, basic machine guns. machine guns suppress the enemy more effectively, which is especially necessary now that weapons are becoming more accurate. Basic machine guns won't be able to mount a scope.
4: auto shotguns and flechette ammo, sniper rifles, PSO-3 scopes. I'm trying to keep shotguns ahead of the assault rifle curve, to keep them useful. The earliest sniper rifles will need to stick with a 7x or PSO-3 scope.
5: carbine length assault rifles, PSO-1 and 10x scopes, 9mm C-mag attachment. Sniper rifles at full range potential, and SMGs still have something on carbines. The PSO-1 scope makes some of the crappier old AK weapons decent.
6: regular assault rifles, 4x ACOG. The ACOG is probably the scope with the best range of usefulness, at the moment.
7: best dedicated machine guns.
8: best pistols (Five Seven, I suppose), 5.56 C-mag and drum mag attachments. Every AR can be a squad support weapon, at this point, making a dedicated belt-fed machine gun less useful.
9: best machine pistols (MP7?), best carbine length assault rifles
10: best SMGs (P90?), best regular assault rifles
Essentially, I'm delaying the "jack of all trades weapons" until around PL 5 or 6, when a carbine or AR with a range of 28-36 with a 4x scope on it starts to give your average rifleman a solid chance to hit targets beyond site range using aimed bursts or autofire (spotted by a 7x or better scope within your party), as well as the ability to deal with pretty much anything that pops into site range, including suppression if it comes to it. Delaying general purpose weapons until then means you play around half of the game with reasonably well defined roles within your group... marksmen to pick up targets at a distance, fire support suppresses an engaged enemy, and more mobile fire teams flank and execute a pinned foe. By the end of the game, a team outfitted primarily with bullpup ARs and C-mags makes your machine gunner somewhat old fashioned, and even gives your close range submachine gunners a run for their money.
Edit: oh yeah, and I'm trying to find a nice spot to squeeze in the Beretta Cx4 Storm, which is such a cool weapon but doesn't balance in nicely, anywhere. It's range of 21 would be a much easier addition in OCTH, where it would outrange pistols early game and remain pretty solid (before being rapidly outclassed, all the same).
[Updated on: Fri, 16 March 2012 08:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301858]
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Sat, 17 March 2012 00:50 
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sabresandy |
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Messages:65
Registered:February 2012 |
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Looks very nice. I suggest moving the 7x scope down to 4 or 5, since a battle rifle with a 7x scope is a deadly sniper platform. I also support having the older AK platforms available at the same time as the battle rifles, since before the PSO-1 scope their deadliness is limited.
I assume that "best carbine length rifles" in Coolnesses 9 and 10 refers to bullpups, right? I'd place the FAMAS in coolness 6 or 7, since it can't mount a foregrip, and have the L85A2, TAR-21, QBZ-97, and Groza available later on. I'd also place the Beretta Storm in Coolness 2 or so. With a 2x scope and a silencer it's a decent nighttime marksman's weapon.
Coolness 5 carbines would be things like the AKS-74U and the M4 Commando/XM177E1, right? If anything I suggest having the AKS-74U available earlier on. It's an odd midway between the useful, actual carbines of the M4 family, and the submachine guns.
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Corporal
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301861]
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Sat, 17 March 2012 04:42 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Not a bad point on the 7x... something to be considered. I think I'll compromise by pushing back battle rifles, but keeping the 7x. Sniper rifles are less overpowered in NCTH by far, but I can see how an automatic rifle with that sort of range would be overpowered so early.
I'll also take the suggestion for the Beretta Storm under consideration... possibly debut it at coolness 1, actually.
I think the availability of the PSO-1 scope is something of a tossup. On one hand, 4x scopes are exceptional in NCTH. On the other hand, the older AK weapons are definitely underpowered compared to more modern fare, and having access to them with a PSO-1 while otherwise superior western weapons are limited to a 2x scope would give them a temporary advantage, which would keep them useful.
Carbine length rifles doesn't refer to bullpups at all... it refers to quicker rifles with a lower range. As you're suggesting, the AKS-74U would be an example of such a weapon at coolness 5 (lower?), whereas the far superior Colt M4 Commando would probably classify as a "best" version at coolness 9, with all others (from the XM177E1 to the HK416 10") falling somewhere between.
I lump bullpups largely in with "regular assault rifles", because their range suggests that they are. Bullpup isn't really a good classification for weapons within the game, though, since even sniper rifles can be a bullpup. But as far as bullpup automatic rifles go, I'm tossing the FAMAS in at coolness 6, since it not only cannot mount a foregrip, but also can't get a rifle LAM. The 3 round burst is nice, but it's a temporary advantage compared to two major longterm limitations.
I consider the Tavor and AUG-A3 probably top tier for their respective calibers. The AUG-A2 would be slightly behind them.
I'm probably going to swap starting points for machine pistols and SMGs... I'll introduce machine pistols sooner, using "SMG-like machine pistols" such as the Mini SAF and MP5KA4 that benefit from foregrips as a starting automatic weapon, and introduce longer-ranged SMGs a coolness level later.
So I guess a revised list would look something like:
0: basic pistols, pump action shotguns with buckshot, older rifles, "SMG-like machine pistols". PEM, ZF-42, and No. 32 scopes.
1: More modern rifles. Early SMGs that tend to be slower on the draw than more modern weapons.
2: Semi auto shotguns, 2x scopes.
3: 7x scopes, basic machine guns (scopeless RPD, PKM, Pecheneg).
4: Auto shotguns and flechette ammo, sniper rifles, PSO-1 and PSO-3 scopes. I'm trying to keep shotguns ahead of the assault rifle curve, to keep them useful. The earliest sniper rifles will need to stick with a 7x or PSO-3 scope. AK-74SU.
5: Newer short range automatic rifles, long range automatic rifles, PSO-1 and 10x scopes, 9mm C-mag attachment, best automatic shotgun (CAWS), older AK models.
6: Newer medium range automatic rifles, 4x ACOG.
7: best dedicated machine guns (FN MINIMI, FN MAG).
8: best pistols (FN Five-Seven), 5.56 C-mag and drum mag attachments, best long range automatic rifles (SCAR H-SV or M14 EBR, probably).
9: best machine pistols (HK MP7A1), best short range automatic rifles (Colt M4 Commando)
10: best SMGs (FN P90), best medium range assault rifles (AUG-A3, Tavor TAR-21), best HBAR automatic rifles (probably AUG HBAR).
Obviously I still have some more to go on the outline. I still need an upper coolness level for sniper rifles.
So I suppose the next step is list the range of coolness levels for each category of weapon, and rank individual weapons against each other. Which is going to be a ton of work, but when you break it down into categories it becomes a little more manageable to chip away at it.
Pistols: 0-8
Machine Pistols: 0-9
SMGs: 1-10
Shotguns: 0-5, with benchmarks for specific features at 0, 2, and 4.
Rifles: 0-2 or 3
Sniper Rifles: 4-?
Machine Guns: 3-7
"Carbines": 4-9
"Assault Rifles": 5-10
"Battle Rifles": 5-8
It will be pretty fast to do shotguns, machine guns, and battle rifles since the categories there are so small, but some of these will take a while for a proper cross-comparison.
And just to reiterate sort of my mindset on where all of this is coming from:
HeadrockMost of our pistols are still at Coolness 1-2, and sniper rifles start appearing much later in the game - but this is completely wrong in NCTH, it doesn't make sense. Instead, some SRs should now be appearing in the first few Coolness levels, as should some Machine Guns - and conversely, pistols, MPs and SMGs need to spread out over the mid and high coolness levels. The reason, again, is that with NCTH every weapon has its downsides and upsides in combat, which means that we NEED a wider range of weapons in each coolness level to keep things balanced. For example, really basic rifles like the M1 Carbine need to start appearing at Coolness 1 or even equipped on some low-level mercs by default, early SRs like the Zastava M76 or ColtCanada C7CT should appear at level 3 at most instead of level 6! Conversely, instead of appearing at Coolness 5, the Five-seveN might be pushed back all the way to coolness 8 - given how terrifyingly powerful such a pistol can be in close-range encounters with the enemy.
I prefer to let some of the antique rifles fill in for sniper rifles in early coolness levels, but I agree that in general each category of weapon has a place at almost every coolness level. You need suppression weapons, marksman weapons, close combat weapons, and general purpose weapons, and you need all of these almost right from the start. Gone will be the days of pistol vs. pistol battles in Omerta and Drassen... the pistol's proper role is as a backup weapon, or as an alternative close combat weapon for mercs using longer ranged firearms as a primary weapon.
[Updated on: Sat, 17 March 2012 07:23] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301866]
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Sat, 17 March 2012 10:05 
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sabresandy |
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Messages:65
Registered:February 2012 |
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I suggest having snipers top out near 9 or 10 with the DSR-1, KSVK, and other anti-materiel goodies. NCTH or not, a merc with the Marksman or Sniper trait with an anti-materiel rifle can very efficiently pop heads from a map's length away. For that matter, you could do that with an M21, just not quite at that kind of range.
There are a few other attachments to look at, too. The Old Aimpoint Projector, for example, turns the G3/G3KA4/G41 into a very deadly close/medium-quarter gun, with range just shy of the 4x scope; the Reflex Sight's AP bonuses at the moment are very powerful, too. Just where those are supposed in on the Coolness scale is up for decision.
And, of course, there's the perennial bother of the guns that don't fit neatly into one category or another. There aren't many of them, fortunately. The FN FAL OSW, for instance: is it a battle rifle or an assault rifle? The different 9x39 silenced Russian guns, which slip between assault rifles, battle rifles, and sniper rifles. The different grenade launchers, the rockets, all of those. (I'm in favor of the M79 and grenade rounds showing up early and staying in play throughout.) I'm interested in helping you sort out the list, but I won't be completely free for another five days or so. After that my final exams will be over and spring break will have started.
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Corporal
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301886]
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Sun, 18 March 2012 00:05 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Hrm, good points. Ok, from the top:
Aimpont projector: probably right from coolness 6, when the weapons that can use it are introduced. Just like the older AK/PSO-1 relationship, older HK rifles lose out in the long term to more modern weapons, with modern attachments. However, the aimpoint can keep them useful for a progress level or so, until something better comes along.
The Reflex Sites are rather arbitrary for when they show up. While powerful, they only amplify what you already have. Because almost every weapon category can use them, from pistols to machine guns, they barely have any effect on game play balance at all. I tend towards mid to late game, which I think they're already at by default.
Misc. guns: that's not too hard. You take them each on a case by case basis, probably at the end of the sorting. You compare them to the coolness of guns that you've already given a coolness value to, and fit them in where it makes sense.
Heavy weapons: I'm fine with the balance on those pretty much the way they are now. Maybe a few tweaks. The M79/Colt Launcher/etc. could probably show up earlier, especially with smoke or tear gas grenades. It's a single shot grenade launcher, and it gives early game heavy weapons mercs like Grizzly, Grunty, or Meltdown something to make them special. For that matter, attached grenade launchers aren't THAT much better. Mostly I don't want to make hand grenades useless, which is my main reason for not wanting to make them super common early on. The pump action launcher, the MGL, or the XM-25 are definitely to remain later game.
Other thoughts: heavy pistols? Ugh. Maybe just make them lower tier, and hope for the best? Too slow to be very useful except maybe early game, in my opinion.
I appreciate the offer of help. We can start with some of the smaller categories to give us a rapid sense of accomplishment.
[Updated on: Sun, 18 March 2012 00:06] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301893]
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Sun, 18 March 2012 06:52 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Machine Guns: coolness 3-7 (well, 2-7, but see below).
Here's my initial thoughts... hopefully I'm getting this correctly from the XML data.
I'm looking at dedicated MGs only for this category... belt fed, or large drum fed weapons only. No mere heavy-barreled variants. And no weapons that are basically an AR with a C-mag. Obviously some decisions will have to be made here on what counts and what doesn't.
These are the MGs that don't allow a magnification optic...
Browning 1919 A6: speed 26/27, range 67, damage 38, shots per 5 APs: 2, autofire to-hit penalty 7, accuracy 82, handling 26, 7 aim levels, recoil 2X/10Y. folding stock, no foregrip, no rifle LAM.
RPD: speed 20/27, range 37, damage 33, shots per 5 APs: 3, autofire to-hit penalty 8, accuracy 68, handling 20, 6 aim levels, recoil 2X/7Y. folding stock. no foregrip, no rifle LAM.
Pecheneg: speed 23/31, range 60, damage 39, shots per 5 APs: 3, autofire penalty 9, accuracy 80, handling 23, 7 aim levels, recoil 1X/10Y. foregrip, but no rifle LAM.
PKM: speed 22/31. range 60, damage 39, shots per 5 APs: 3, autofire penalty 9, accuracy 80, handling 22, 7 aim levels, recoil 2X/11Y. folding stock. no foregrip, no rifle LAM.
Rheinmetall MG3: speed 23/28, range 63, damage 37, shots per 5 APs: 5, to-hit penalty 9, accuracy 81, handling 23, recoil 2X/9Y, 7 aim levels. No foregrip, no rifle LAM.
Ultimax: speed 18/26, range 37, damage 30, shots per 5 APs: 2, autofire to-hit penalty 7, accuracy 68, handling 18, 6 aim levels, recoil 0X/4Y. No foregrip, no rifle LAM.
And everything below can mount an optic of some kind...
CETME Ameli: speed 18/25, range 36, damage 30, shots per 5 APs: 5, autofire to-hit penalty 7, accuracy 67, handling 18, 6 aim levels, recoil 3x/8y. No foregrip, no rifle LAM, but CAN mount a suppressor.
HK21E: speed 22/28, range 64, damage 37, shots per 5 APs: 4, autofire to-hit penalty 8, accuracy 81, handling 22, 7 aim levels, recoil 1X/8Y. old aimpoint projector but no rifle LAM. battle scope. burst capable.
HK23E: speed 19/24, range 36, damage 30, shots per 5 APs: 4, autofire to-hit penalty 6, accuracy 66, handling 19, 6 aim levels, recoil 1X/4Y. old aimpoint projector but no rifle LAM. can use an AR suppressor and battle scope. burst capable.
HK MG43: speed 20/24, range 36, damage 30, shots per 5 APs: 4, autofire to-hit penalty 6, accuracy 67, handling 20, 6 aim levels, recoil 1X/4Y. ISM-V-IR, rifle LAM/FL, AR suppressor, built in stock. no foregrip. As I copy this down, I note exceptionally low recoil with nice attachments.
FN Minimi: speed 20/24, range 36, damage 30, shots per 5 APs: 5, autofire penalty 7, accuracy 67, handling 20, 6 aim levels, recoil 1x/5y. ISM-V-IR, grippod or foregrip, rifle LAM/FL, AR suppressor, retractable stock. with 200 rounds in the box, fairly low recoil, a high rate of fire, and either a bipod, foregrip, or grippod, this weapon is a supression user's dream. Controllable with high output, and great attachments for single targets besides.
FN Minimi SPW: speed 17/24, range 34, damage 30, shots per 5 APs: 3, autofire penalty 7, accuracy 65, handling 17, aim levels 6, recoil 1X/5Y. same attachments as the Minimi except the stock is built in.
FN MAG: speed 25/29, range 63, damage 37, shots per 5 APs: 4, autofire penalty 7, accuracy 81, handling 25, 7 aim levels, recoil 1X/9Y. grippod or foregrip, rifle LAM/FL, folding stock. High recoil and 7 aim levels, but otherwise an excellent weapon with good attachments.
M60E3: speed 21/28, range 64, damage 37, shots per 5 APs: 3, to-hit penalty 8, accuracy 81, handling 21, 7 aim levels, recoil 1X/10Y. no rifle LAM or Foregrip.
RPK: speed 19/28, range 40, damage 33, shots per 5 APs: 3, autofire penalty 8, accuracy 70, handling 19, 6 aim levels, recoil 1x/6y. built in stock. foregrip. no rifle LAM.
My gut instinct is something along the lines of:
Coolness 2: Browning M1919 A6 (Ugh, I forgot about this antiquated thing. This gun is barely useable... it needs a coolness 2 handicap, even if that means breaking my own outlined rules. It has the low autofire rate of the Ultimax, with the crappy recoil of the PKM. It weighs a ton, and the best thing about it attachment wise is that it permits a folding stock. It's like the worst of the worst for machine guns in this game. About the nicest thing I can say about it is that it's a classic, so you're classy if you use it. But that's a high price to pay for style.)
3: Ultimax (a low recoil is about the nicest thing I can say about a machine gun with this autofire rate), PKM (range 60 is pointless without an optic, fairly low autofire rate, horrible autofire penalty and the worst recoil, with no attachments outside the standard bipod to mitigate this.)
4: Pecheneg (a foregrip makes this weapon less dependent on bipods for stability. the accuracy is nice, but the recoil and high aim level makes this unimportant, since you will want to use long bursts to move in gradually on a target. Sort of a better PKM.) Rheinmetall MG3 (an excellent autofire rate makes this useful for suppression if you use the bipod to control it's otherwise horrible recoil.) RPD (actually decent stats for how poor the coolness 3 and 4 machines guns otherwise are. Well rounded, and definitely serviceable this early in the game, so it makes it to coolness 4.)
5: CETMA Ameli (poor recoil with no foregrip, on top of a fast autofire rate and lower accuracy compared to other MGs, is a poor combination. It's a decently fast weapon, though, so this would still be excellent for pure suppression purposes.) M60E3 (high recoil, poor attachments, low autofire rate.) HK 21E (burst capable with an aimpoint projector or battle scope, but 7 aim levels and a high recoil with no foregrip make for less control than it's cousin.)
6: RPK (nice versatility for a squad support weapon. smaller drum is still sufficient, solid accuracy, recoil isn't too bad, it's relatively speedy, and actually a compromise on the range-damage ratio between the 5.56 and 7.62 MGs. Biggest drawback is the lack of a rifle LAM, and the low autofire rate (which isn't horrible anyway, since you've only got 75 in the drum.) HK MG43 (sort of a lesser version of the Minimi... almost identical stats. it doesn't allow a foregrip, but it's recoil is actually a touch lower. slightly slower autofire rate, but a lesser autofire penalty. This is definitely a quality weapon.) FN Minimi SPW (Ok, this is a lesser version of the Minimi. Solid attachments, but a poor auto fire rate that doesn't take advantage of it's exceptional bullet capacity. It's speedy on the draw, though, and otherwise has all of the Minimi advantages, so I'll keep it at level 6.) HK 23E (Low recoil, burst capable, with an aimpoint or battle scope? Sign me up.)
7: FN Minimi (best for suppression, with the versatility of being able to put a half dozen rounds accurately into an individual target when required), FM MAG (excellent range/damage, with accuracy and control, and of course it suppresses decently too).
Open to suggestions, but otherwise I'm actually pretty satisfied with this evaluation. And actually, I've discovered a couple new weapons to try out by doing this... before I find a Minimi, that HK MG43 looks to be an excellent comparison. And I really want to try out the HK 23E in burst mode, now... I'm guessing that will perform really well, even on a mediocre merc.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301896]
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Sun, 18 March 2012 07:34 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Next up, shotguns!
This post is a work-in-progress. Might not have time to compile everything tonight before bed, but I'll start compiling everything here.
Coolness 0+: Pump action/Break action:
Baikal MP-133: speed 16/36, damage 39, range 15, cap 7, pump 12, accuracy 25, aim 5, handling 16. all chokes, folding stock, small scopes.
Baikal MP-233B: speed 17/36, damage 40, range 17, cap 2, reload 14, accuracy 29, aim 5, handling 17. folding stock, duckbill, small scopes.
Ithaca Model 37: speed 9/34, damage 38, range 15, cap 4, pump 10, accuracy 20, aim 3, handling 9. duckbill, small scopes.
Neostead: speed 9/31, damage 39, range 16, cap 12, pump 12, accuracy 25, aim 4, handling 9. duckbill, small scopes.
Remington M870: speed 15/36, damage 38, range 15, cap 7, pump 12, accuracy 20, aim 5, handling 15. duckbill, small scopes, stock.
Fabarm FP6: speed 9/34, damage 38, range 13, cap 4, pump 12, accuracy 14, aim 4, handling 9. ISM-V-IR, all chokes and duckbill, small scopes, stock.
Fabarm SDASS: speed 15/36, damage 39, range 15, cap 7, pump 12, accuracy 25, aim 5, handling 15. ISM-V-IR, all chokes and duckbill, small scopes, stock.
Sawed-Off Shotgun: speed 1/30, damage 36, range 9, cap 2, reload 14, can burst both shells, accuracy 3, aim 2, handling 1. duckbill, small scope? (LOL, on this thing?)
Super Shorty Mini-Shotgun: speed 2/31, damage 36, range 9, cap 4, pump 9, accuracy 4, aim 3, handling 2.
Conclusions:
Coolness 0: Baikal MP-133 (inferior to SDASS), Baikal MP-233B (obviously bottom tier), Ithaca Model 37 (inferior to FP6), Remington M870 (inferior to SDASS),
Coolness 1: Fabarm FP6, Fabarm SDASS (the ISM-V-IR potential on these makes them pretty solid close range weapons, plus they have the full range of chokes).
Undecided: Neostead (better speed and magazine capacity than other pump shotguns, but... attachments otherwise underwhelming. Coolness is either 1 or 2.), Sawed Off, Super Shorty.
Coolness 2-3: Semi auto:
Benelli M3 Convertible: speed 17/36, damage 39, range 15, cap 7, accuracy 25, aim 5, handling 17. duckbill, stock, small scopes. stock available.
Benelli M4 Super 90: speed 16/35, damage 39, range 15, cap 7, accuracy 25, aim 5, handling 16. duckbill, imp. choke, rifled choke, ISM-V-IR, small scopes. stock.
SPAS-12: speed 17/34, damage 39, range 16, cap 7, accuracy 25, aim 5, handling 17. all chokes but no duckbill, small scopes. stock.
SPAS-15: speed 16/34, damage 38, range 15, cap 7, accuracy 20, aim 5, handling 16. all chokes and duckbill, small scope. stock.
Street Sweeper: speed 16/34, damage 38, range 15, cap 12, accuracy 20, aim 5, handling 16. duckbill, small scopes. stock.
Saiga 12K: speed 14/35, damage 38, range 14, cap 7, accuracy 20, aim 5, handling 14. all chokes and duckbill, foregrip (why?), small scopes. stock.
Conclusions:
Coolness 2: Street Sweeper (not significant in any way except magazine cap, which isn't as amazing with a semi auto weapon. basic attachments only.) SPAS-12 (slightly slower, range advantage is insignificant), Benelli M3 Convertible (decent, but falls short of coolness 3. Stock attachment available, but not mandatory is a nice perk.)
Coolness 3: Saiga 12K, SPAS-15 (these two are both reasonably speedy on the draw, with the right attachments), Benelli M4 Super 90 (ISM-V-IR and full attachment range).
Coolness 4+: Automatic:
I had initially envisioned that the best autofire shotgun would make it's appearance at coolness 5, but there are only three of these guys, and I didn't feel comfortable putting the Jackhammer in with either of its counterparts.
Coolness 4: USAS-12. The slowest, least accurate, and least powerful of these weapons, the USAS-12 does still have the highest magazine capacity and autofire rate.
Coolness 5: Jackhammer Mk3A1. Bullpup configuration, and thus significantly faster, makes up for the lower autofire rate and magazine size. To boot it has a slightly more controllable recoil.
Coolness 6, HK CAWS. Another bullpup. This one is slower, has a worse autofire recoil, and an even lower magazine capacity, but HOLY COW LOOK AT THAT DAMAGE. Also has an exceptional range for a shotgun.
I'm going to leave off the UDAR for now, since it will also need to be compared to pistols at some level.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 March 2012 07:03] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301959]
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Mon, 19 March 2012 00:04 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Oh? Did I misplace them?
Easy enough to fix. I'll probably update the above post later tonight. Could have sworn I saw a 0 for manual reload cost on those, though.
I have the feeling that the pump action and automatic sections are going to nearly write themselves, with only the semi-auto section being something that I have to seriously wade through. Like with the machine gun section, each category of weapon needs to be judged on its own merits and priorities. As an example, for machine guns that are primarily for suppression... the number of aim levels isn't really important, because a long burst allows you to gradually move closer to your target anyway. For machine guns that are trying to be versatile for picking off individual targets with short bursts, they become more important since you want your first shot to be as close to the target as possible.
I think for shotguns, what I'm looking for is:
Damage, because your target will get hit with relatively few rounds.
Speed, because shotguns are already kind of slow, so every AP saved counts towards additional shots.
Accuracy, since you fire so few shells and need those that you do shoot to count towards something.
Attachments like chokes will depend on the shotgun range and accuracy.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301970]
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Mon, 19 March 2012 13:12 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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As a relatively small category, it wouldn't be impossible to re-do the coolness levels of the entire category to account for rebalancing. That would largely impact the overall coolness, but probably not so much the range. What I mean is, it might change shotguns from 0-5 to 2-7, or something like that, but the relationship of each shotgun to the other shotguns remains relatively static. Our job is mostly one of comparison... if we decide to adjust each shotgun up by two coolness levels later on, that's not a huge task.
As it stands, though, with stock 1.13 they need a boost of some kind. If it's a coolness handicap, that's fine, and if it's completely reworked XML data from another project, well, that's another way, too.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #301975]
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Mon, 19 March 2012 15:57 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Is it? Since they are currently mostly useless in the game, I've not done a lot of cross comparison yet. Of course, that's part of what I'm doing here.
If anything, what I'd really like to see out of your project is to change up the shotgun stats enough to get more coolness levels worth of progression out of the few models that currently exist in the game. It would be neat to find the CAWS or USAS-12 useful well into the late game, but in general an AR or carbine is more versatile at different ranges, and SMGs prove more devastating in close quarters.
Also, if you can make slugs useful again, that would be very cool. Otherwise, I don't see this project as much getting in my way.
Absolute worst case scenario, I have to totally revamp an entire weapons section, which is a couple hours of compiling and comparing stats. But even that said, I'm guessing your revamp is going to propose certain stats and relationships from shotgun to shotgun, and if I decide to include your edits in with this coolness progression, well... assuming your reasoning is sound, I'm pretty much going to come up with the same conclusions in my own comparisons. So... while I hate to use the word "stealing" in this context, I think you get where I'm headed with my point. Your revamp would pretty much do most of the work for me, and all I would really need to do is figure out where the usefulness of shotguns fits in against the other weapon categories, which is relatively simple.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #302273]
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Fri, 23 March 2012 22:22 
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sabresandy |
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Messages:65
Registered:February 2012 |
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While we're waiting for the shotguns to be done with, I'll tackle the rifle section. It's relatively small and easy.
EDIT: okay. So, what exactly qualifies as first-level coolness? I'm thinking of putting the WWII rifles as Coolness 0. At Coolness 1, semiauto rifles and pistol carbines appear: M1 Carbine, Calico M900 (50 round magazine really doesn't count for much when you factor in semiauto), Winchester 94, and Beretta Cx4. At coolness 2, we can start introducing the Mini-14, the SL8, the Garand, and the SKS, and possibly the Mauser 03 (which is either much closer to a sniper rifle than a regular rifle, or else just a K98 clone with worse speed and better accuracy, depending on how you look at it).
Oddities include the .50 Beo rifle, and potentially the HEZI SM-1. The HEZI isn't much better than the M1 unless you factor in the Trigger Group (which is sci-fi only by default), while the .50 Beo is more of a baby sniper rifle.
[Updated on: Fri, 23 March 2012 23:26] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #302286]
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Sat, 24 March 2012 04:27 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Your outline there looks quite sound, to me, even if I might quibble with a couple of the details. You can go as high as coolness 3 before actual sniper rifles get introduced (at coolness 4, obviously), so stuff like the .50 Beowulf rifle could probably go there. Solid range + excellent damage + decent scope attachments will make it quite solid.
I might point out that the Winchester 94 Trapper is lever action, so it should probably go with the coolness 0 bolt action rifles.
If I don't promote all of the various HEZI perks, Universal Wolf will hate me forever. Anyways, the HEZI can accept a Rifle LAM or Flashlight combo, as well as a ton of additional attachments over the M1 Carbine (most especially an ACOG scope). It has the perks of a bullpup weapon, like better speed, and in addition to the trigger group it's currently bugged as well, with *zero* recoil affecting burst-fire attacks. Basically the M1 outclasses it for reload speed, and nothing else at all.
Now, obviously this weapon will already be yesterday's news by the time these spiffy attachments show up, but it *definitely* outclasses the M1 by a wide margin.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #302287]
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Sat, 24 March 2012 04:50 
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sabresandy |
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Messages:65
Registered:February 2012 |
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Aye, duly acknowledged. .50 Beo would count as a low-level sniper rifle in this case, and .44 Trapper would count as a Coolness 0 rifle. In addition, I've taken a better look at the Mauser 03, and I've made up my mind: it's probably Coolness 0, but otherwise it's just weird. Can't take a WWII scope, can't take a bipod, can take an ACOG, comes with a 7x by default. I suggest either taking away the default scope and relegating it to a Coolness 0 rifle, or else moving it over the sniper category.
I'm aware about the whole HEZI deal (after all, I was there for the debate), but it's all contingent upon the trigger group. Without the trigger group it's just another semiautomatic rifle, even if it can accept the awesome Rifle LAM and has bullpup draw speed; all the perks to accuracy don't really balance the fact that it can only fire one shot at a time. With the trigger group it turns into a burst-firing murder machine with bugged recoil, and the Trigger Group is Sci-Fi only.
Sans Trigger Group, I might move it up to Coolness 3 or so. It'll fill a gap between the SMGs and the battle rifles, and be handier than the SKS or Mini-14.
[Updated on: Sat, 24 March 2012 04:57] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: EnemyGunChoices.xml for latest 1.13/NCTH?[message #302289]
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Sat, 24 March 2012 05:16 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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The Mauser M-03 is a modern hunting rifle, and would be rather out of place without its 7x scope. I'd either place it at coolness 3, which is balanced for the 7x scope, or else move it up to the sniper rifle section if you think it's overpowered for coolness 3.
I've started the shotguns, and have run into an issue where I'm sort of inexperienced. What's the practical relationship between the full choke, improved choke, barrel extender, and duckbill?
The chokes talk about improving range somewhat, but obviously they don't exactly do that... they improve grouping. And the duckbill changes the scatter pattern.
I'm just wondering which attachment is going to be the most effective at putting the most shot into a target at longer ranges. I'm *guessing* it's one of the chokes, since range itself means a little bit less in NCTH.
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Master Sergeant
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