Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318461]
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Thu, 02 May 2013 04:09  
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 Chris Camfield |
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Messages:68
Registered:February 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario |
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systemfehler
I think that is what is lacking the most. Those guys call themselves fans, and they may be, but there are fans and then there are fans. They might have played their few hundred hours of share but they are far away from the thousands of hours the really committed fan has put into the game playing and modding it.
A bit of a stretch, but if they were really committed fans, they wouldn't have had to register here but were registered since quite some time and maybe even have modded some of the game before.
But if that's the reasoning you're going to take, how are you ever going to be happy with anything anyone does commercially with JA, ever?
No one, NO ONE, is as committed to the game as you guys. Which I mean as a compliment, but I encourage you to try to have some perspective and to embrace people who say they're fans even if they weren't already posters here.
I know a guy at work who played JA2 and loved it and I trust that he really was a fan of the game (and I think he's backed the kickstarter), but I'm sure he hasn't put a thousand hours into playing JA2 and mods. And neither have I! 
Quote:
JA2 was a deep and complex game from the start and 1.13 did almost double that. Now JA2 came into being with a lot higher budget and a bigger team, and 1.13 was reached through love and dedication to the game and a century of experience actually playing.
I was doing some back-of-the-envelope calculations when someone said the budget for JA2 was $4 million. It might have been, but to be honest I do not know what the budget was. If it was that big that included a lot of non-salary costs.
I remembered 12 core team members (Ian, Linda, Shaun, Andrew, me, Mark, David, Kris, Scott, Joey, Eric, and Norm.) Plus I think that Derek Beland and Alex Meduna had to be brought on from Wizardry 8 to help. But, of those people - none of the programmers except Derek(?) and Alex had worked on a game before. The artists... I'm pretty sure Scott and Eric did, but I don't remember how much experience Joey and Norm did.
So that's a comparable team size. But another thing to consider is that we started JA2 from scratch. We didn't have an engine at all - we had to make our own "engine"!
These guys have made multiple turn-based games before and they're going to be using the Unity engine. So I think they have more development experience than we started with, plus an engine.
I think you're right - I don't think any developer can achieve what you guys have done with your mods. But as you said, if they make a good game which is moddable then you should be able to have your cake and eat it too.
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Corporal
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318523]
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Thu, 02 May 2013 21:08
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| Mauser |
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Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany |
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Shanga
As you might've noticed, the message wasn't "GTFO FC". It was "DO IT RIGHT, FC". It's a big difference.
I agree on the DO IT RIGHT part. However, maybe its also a little much to ask from us that FC should do everything PERFECTLY from the start and deliver a perfect product from the very beginning that satisfies all fans equally and has all features one could wish for.
Remember when JA2 was released? Sure, the demolevel was great and got many people excited, but JA2 itself was far from perfect from the start, buggy as hell, with many features not properly implemented, which also weren
[Updated on: Thu, 02 May 2013 21:18] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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First Sergeant
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318533]
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Thu, 02 May 2013 22:17
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| Inukshuk |
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Messages:85
Registered:September 2009
Location: Canada |
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Quote:Originally Posted By: Shanga
Beside that, Elite and those other remakes never had the failure history JA has. And so many broken promises.
That is the biggest point here. I hope they can "in good old rapid prototyping style", do a better pitch on KS by adding more visual content. I think now is the exact right moment to motivate them. Also I will do an video, but I have to take some time and right now I'm very busy. Maybe over the weekend.
Originally Posted By: Shanga
And despite all that, I am to trust AGAIN in nice words?
Yes you should, because this time it's different, I hope you can see this somewhat.
Nicely said, Peal. I agree though I can respect where Shanga is coming from. No doubt the FC team has played enough Ja1.13 and lurked around the BP enough to know how crusty things can get at times, but all the while aiming at creating some amazing new things out of this old 1950's Chevy (liked that analogy a lot...having spent a fair bit of time in Havana).
One thing the FC people need to know is that the hardest core modders may well be the hardest to convince (and particularly their Big Daddy Shanga) but they are worth it. However, I hope they don't forget that there are also lots of us here like me, and that those people like me realize that the concerns of real modders are not representative of the concerns of many obsessive 'casual' gamers, who do after all play an important role en masse. I've played the game for thousands of hours since the demo came out way back when. I've lurked on these boards for years, posting only occasionally and often revealing an embarrassing lack of facility in messing with the files and mods. I'm older than most here...but probably not all.
Whether or not they could have had better timing or preparation in a perfect (if predictable is the same thing as perfect) world, it's obvious that FC has their Nordic hearts in the right place (which is what matters most around here with respect to JA) and a pretty decent assembly of the right kind of talent and tools. If they are saying what we want to hear here it is because they understand what that is in the first place. And IMO they obviously believe it. Whether they can make it work out well or not I don't know, but I'm happy to pledge good deal more than I'd pay for a game on the shelf just to give them the chance to fail. Maybe financial need is genuinely such a big deal for some people that they can't even promise fifty bucks they may never need to pay just to give them a shot, but for most of us that's not true. I think it's crazy for anyone who really loves this game not to pledge something, but of course, pledging the kind of effort and love that a real Modder has to offer is a bigger deal and they are of course a tad more reluctant to commit.
I want to see these guys take a shot, the same way I want to see modders like Flugente, JAsmine (AR), Smeagol, old Scorp, Sandro, T-Bird, Headrock...all the others, take a shot with their mods. Hell, I'd probably have have given them a few bucks too for their mods if they'd asked in a forum like KS but as has been explored elsewhere when others have suggested compensating modders, that would probably spoil fun around here.
Good luck FC. You've got my bucks.
And BTW...why the Hell am I stuck with the same lame online name NJ since Day 1 I signed up for this forum, and keep getting refused requests to change it to something I didn't choose in 10 seconds?? 'Inukshuk' please 
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318558]
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Fri, 03 May 2013 09:26
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| gdalf |
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Messages:89
Registered:May 2013 |
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Hi all,
Long time lurker and 1.13 fan here. I found this conversation very interesting and wanted to add a few thoughts. Like many fans I am no modder but have probably played more JA2 than any other single title in my life. The modding community are 90% responsible for giving this game the legs it has (I recently re-played vanilla UB and it was far too easy and unworthy to repeat). To be clear, I have also pledged a relatively large amount and may increase this if FC deliver. What I can't help but feel however is that there are too many unknowns about their KS campaign to pledge more.
Where's the game?
The first question is where is the game? They launched this campaign too early. I have heard their response that they want to make sure they're on the right track with the fans etc as their reason for not having more already but I do feel they had plenty of feedback already to go on to be at the pre-alpha stage they're at now. 15 years of JA2 community alive and well with plenty of evidence about how the game could have progressed if you interpret what were the successful mods with the community. Feedback from BIA. Response/reviews to XCOM. It's all there if they wanted to look.
Where's the commitment and fore-planning?
I can't help but conclude that the real issue is that the small studio was actually still needing to spend all their important time on their current projects, and JA:F has not had the attention it deserves as yet. That's fair enough - they need to pay their bills. But the it makes the timing of their launch look cynical as others have pointed out. The net result is they are clearly making it up as they go along. They're asking polls about what should be added, stretch goals and merc priorities... I mean this stuff should all have been decided before launch. They (should) know technically what can/cannot be easier or less easy to achieve. If fans decide everything, then they will end up making promises they can't fulfill.
Where's the leadership and inspiration?
A more established name in the field would have stamped their mark on the game and said "I know JA, played it, designed it, modded it (etc) this is what is going to work in 2013." They don't seem to be demonstrating leadership on their project and there's very little enthusiasm rubbing off from their updates (to me). It may be because they've not worked on the title, but the reason Chris Roberts, Chris Avellone, Mark Jacobs, Richard Garriott, Brian Fargo, etc all could raise millions is because even if they've had misses (and god knows they've had them) they had the self-belief to promise they could knock it out the park and the experience of what went wrong with their misses (too much publisher interference?) to lend confidence to the fanbase. A well-run KS campaign also reflects their ability to manage a well-run game project (and SC and CU had their share of hiccups but the ability to pull through and reflect on those problems actually builds confidence). I don't know a lot about game development, but I do want the devs to project the aura that "we know what to do" rather than have me thinking "jeez these guys should be doing X Y and Z"
How are you appealing beyond the existing fanbase?
Another serious repercussion is that with no product to show off, FC can only appeal to the relatively small amount of people who already are very familiar with the JA franchise and can't appeal to a wider demographic of current gamers by wowing them with something they could believe in. Do you really think all the people who backed Star Citizen played WC1-5/Privateer? Tons hadn't but when Chris Roberts showed off his working demo, he got a huge number of new fans who'd only known the games through reputation to believe. That's the power of launching when you're ready.
What can be done now?
Ok I've been really harsh and its not my intention to shoot anyone down. So here's what I think needs to be done to 'get it right' now they've committed to launching and the campaign is underway.
1) Involve the community more. Not just polls about what next. But you need to get the WASTE model from Wasteland up and running in detail posthaste (they also use the Unity engine, learn from them). There is some excellent talent here. Get them excited by saying how they'll be involved. How much is the artwork going to cost you doing it all in-house? Well outsource it to the fans and save some money and get them involved.
2) Yes I've read that the old developers of the originals and modders can't publicly commit to working on the title. But they could publicly endorse your project? You could officially instate them as project consultants (not employees)? You should have got them in before because your track record is so thin. There's still time to get them in now.
3) Working demo (or video). Should have been done before but it's not too late now.
4) Don't make things up as you go along. Get all the available feedback you can then plan everything between now and the closing date (including stretch goals) and hint what you have planned rather than keep saying "it's still undecided" "we're not sure yet" "we want to get fan feedback on this" etc.
I assume you've already got the publicity plans in place so keep at it on that front. The number one weakness of FC is your track record (aka thin CV). It's also harmed by association with bitComposer and BIA (not your fault, but it is there), and other than a working demo that blows everyone away, the next best thing to overcome that is fans, modders, old designers, etc. demonstrating they have faith in you, but you have to give them something so that they can believe.
Good luck Full Control.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318699]
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Sun, 05 May 2013 09:28
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| batanen |
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Messages:24
Registered:May 2013 |
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Off_TopicThey should host another AmA specifically for JAF, but this time they should do it here.
Can't you ask your detailed why/what questions here now? Bear's Pit has >10000 users (not sure how many are actually active). Not even half of them are yet supporting the Kickstarter (some supporters must be elsewhere too). So, I would assume FC is interested in trying to answer your questions where they're are able to. But please remember end-budget determines what they can afford to do (you can ask what we get for $350000 and which is probably left out; though strecthed goals might come later to answer this.). For example, I would say if they barely got $350000, "easy/user-friendly/advantaged" mod support cannot be guaranteed. So if still in doubt, ask away.
Off_Topic
Although this had me doubting how much they
[Updated on: Sun, 05 May 2013 09:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318710]
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Sun, 05 May 2013 14:33
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| Pambam |
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Messages:18
Registered:May 2013 |
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Hey,
every detail of the game cannot be right for everyone.
As FC stated - the modders will get the opportunity to make things more complex.
I read all the stuff here and watched the video of FC again - these guys are good.
Do we really want a JA:F?
There is a great idea to support the campaign which can only be done by veterans.
Imagine, you create a short video (5 - 10 min.) which shows (+ perhaps voice commentary, enthusiastic, entertaining like a trailer) how great JA2 is. This could include nice quotes from cool and funny mercenaries (and Elliot), combat, tactical layer and NPC + story?
But what is it, what makes this game so addictive? That can only be experienced if you played it for a longer time. That is the problem. Younger folks don't know it, won't do it so they will not pledge. To convince them, you have to go like this: JA2 is still great, look how old it is, how many details it had, how cool it was - lets do something better with modern technology which defines the genre again.
A second video from FC will follow, where they express as a commentary what was great in JA - what they will use again.
Someone with experience in cutting could help to make this video not boring at all - what mostly happens if less experienced cutters have something to say. Unfortunately, I am not this person.
But we all can do the "script" for the video - which scenes should be included, etc. and someone has to grab them.
I will post this idea also on the FC forum. Perhaps it is not so bad. What do you think?
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Private
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318715]
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Sun, 05 May 2013 17:58
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| malthaussen |
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Messages:91
Registered:January 2005
Location: Philadelphia |
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@Flugente: they say so in the Tacticular Cancer interview: "In general the inventory in JA2 was/is clumsy and annoying to use."
I was also disturbed to discover in the Kickstarter comments section that Thomas apparently was unaware of the sector inventory button. Now, that's a confidence shaker. He says after all these years he's still learning stuff, but that's a pretty big thing to miss, wouldn't you say?
Hell, I'm still learning stuff. I accidentally corrupted a save file with JAPE the other night, and discovered that Sir-Tech put in an invisible inventory item called "nada." Takes up an inventory slot, but there is nada there. Funny guys.
-- Mal
[Updated on: Sun, 05 May 2013 18:02] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Jagged Alliance: Flashback now on Kickstarter[message #318731]
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Sun, 05 May 2013 20:11
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| derek |
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Messages:143
Registered:April 2010 |
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I still don't understand how could U miss sector inv?! And after all those years?!
I was all against that Shanga shit and all that but... I admit I haven't read all your interviews and stuff, but who knows what else U don't know about Jagged Alliance?!
I don't even agree with the community... I think they won't too much from a small and "new" team like U. I think that they won't heaven and hell (or whatever, in my country OVCE I NOVCE) and that that is wrong, although expected after all those years with nothing from JAGGED ALLIANCE an after Shitcomposer SHIT IN ACTION but still...
Personally, I would be happy with JA2 1.13 with better AI and ability to see armor and gear on mercs/soldiers (like Bios LOBOT project)... that's all I need. Don't need shine new graphics (Hired Guns is enough, don't need theatrics like Mass Effect or I don't know what...
Just give me JAGGED ALLIANCE 2 1.13 with great AI, "finished LOBOT project", movable thanks and floors... and, map and item editor, of course. That is all.
But if U don't know about sector inv, well... It's like U don't know how to aim (make cursor smaller).
Instead of demo I would rather like to know what really U know about JA2 and how big fans are you really?
I can understand that you are after the money also and that JA game is your big chance and everything (i have somebody very close who is workin' in small game studio and how hard it is and fucked up), but this project is big... Jagged Alliance is like true undead or something... Fuck Elder Scrolls or Baldur's Gate, Diablo and even Fallout 1 and 2... JA2 is above that! Why? Because of people like Flugente (who is like god in coding and shit) or RoWa21 and others... Even me who played the game more that I can count and is constantly on this forum and constantly working my own stuff on new builds, even have core stuff in my head and written for new JA game...
Fuck up this and who knows what will your future look like... Just do as I wrote before and it will be good enough start.
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Sergeant
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