Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » #JAFDEV Art/VFX/Models » A serious question regarding mercenaries faces
A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319154] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:28 Go to next message
JAFTeam is currently offline JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Hello everyone,

This is a critical topic I think. Why? Cause the ugly 3D faces already got it so damned wrong. So we have a question. About a thing where we aren't that sure at all. I think it's not a secret that, during the campaign, we'll reveal the first portraits of some mercs.

So. The thing is... how shall they look like? Of course, younger. That's for sure. But the question is: Do you guys want to see the "old style" of JA2 "copied" (same style basically) or do you want a new style for the portraits?

The thing is: We do love the old style and have planned with it but would also try to invent a new one if it is requested by the fans. This one isn't an easy question, I know, cause it's one of these parts where a lot of hate or love can be generated. So we ask before we fuck it up (like some others did before us... 3d... how the hell...).

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Staff Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319155] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
 I'm no graphics guy, so what would a 'new style' be like? You have a demo pic?

Personally I'd be happy to see the same style of faces as in JA2.

Keep in mind though that modders should be able to add new faces in the same style as your new faces.

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319156] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam is currently offline JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
Sure about the modding part.
No demo pic yet. But for example more comic-style. Or more realistic. Both ways are possible. Maybe not only the front of faces but maybe from the side. Such things.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319158] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
 Hmm. While comic look might be easier to draw, there is the risk that it looks... how to say... childish or cheap. Doesn't sound very promising to me.

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319159] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JAFTeam is currently offline JAFTeam

 
Messages:157
Registered:April 2013
You know, I'm no artist. Dunno how to describe better. However: That's just a question where I'd like to get some feedback to see if a change is wished or not Wink

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Staff Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319160] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
derek is currently offline derek

 
Messages:143
Registered:April 2010
Personally, I'm really "connected" with JA2 portraits so... JA2 graphic for me.


Although, for those newcomers and those more "flexible"... Wasteland 2 wallpaper looks really attractive.

Also like something like this
http://www.andersthelin.com/wp-content/uploads/SelfPortrait.png

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Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319161] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Messages:423
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
 I really wouldn't prefer more comic style either... I'd rather see same style, although more realistic like Ron's actor pics I like as well. You'll probably have seen them around. Most people here liked them a lot.

http://kermi.pp.fi/JA_2/Faces/Ron/RonFaces.jpg

Modders will have quite an advantage as well with one of those styles to add "new" mercs...

[Updated on: Thu, 09 May 2013 15:55] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319164] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
batanen is currently offline batanen

 
Messages:24
Registered:May 2013
I think you cannot go wrong with JA2 style portraits; and if you already have made plans with it, you may proceed. We would need some comparison pictures to decide more properly.

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Private 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319165] Thu, 09 May 2013 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
 We had this discussion internally, when we discovered the Face Generator from Original War.

This is OW comics-book style. Not many liked it:
http://img543.imageshack.us/img543/1285/48269530.jpg


This still looks handdrawn, but more likeable (not perfect yet):
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/full/76.jpg

I'd say go safe and keep the old JA2 look with a touch of youth and better quality and details. The basic need is for people to recognize who they're looking at. And maybe have something like OW Face Generator, which was a bloody awesome tool. You can find more details about it here:

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php/topics/314754/Bringing_the_sexy_back.html#Post314754

[Updated on: Thu, 09 May 2013 14:59] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319173] Thu, 09 May 2013 15:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim is currently offline grim

 
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
 JA2 portraits were very accurate, style-wise, very successful. The only way you can change them in JAF, IMHO, is by the setting. Try to catch the era's mood, inspired by B-movies of this time maybe, and put it in the portraits.
A more comic style will be out of place, i guess, keep it quite realistic and detailled.

I like the Face generator's protraits a lot, however they look too much painted and cold for JA. By the way i prefer the "face to face" perspective better than "half side". This isn't a manor's hallway, but a bunch of mercenaries reporting to you. It has to look like an ID's photograph or a video presentation.
Once again, maybe you can get inspiration from cold war military or spy files to get your style.

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Master Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319179] Thu, 09 May 2013 16:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GFox is currently offline GFox

 
Messages:31
Registered:January 2013
Obviously, no 256 color palettes and stupid formats like STI any more, please.

I also prefer the JA2 style faces but maybe with just a little more natural colors and only slightly more "photographic" look.

This would make it easier to import new faces from photos and stuff and have them fit with the original faces well without the need of tons of shopping. Judging from the Usermade Faces Data Bank -thread, most of the faces that fit well with the original JA2 characters seem to me to be mostly handdrawn and for many of us wanting to mod new faces in that's a pretty difficult barrier to cross.

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Private 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319181] Thu, 09 May 2013 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
 Clearly they need to change them (cause all mercs would be like younger than they were in JA1), but I agree that the graphic style should be kept. A change of background here, a change of clothing there and bingo you got a merc face looking new.

Don't go overboard with alterations, you'll get the BiA effect.

+1 to what Gfox says

GFox
Judging from the Usermade Faces Data Bank -thread, most of the faces that fit well with the original JA2 characters seem to me to be mostly handdrawn and for many of us wanting to mod new faces in that's a pretty difficult barrier to cross.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 May 2013 16:11] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319184] Thu, 09 May 2013 16:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Thor is currently offline Thor

 
Messages:423
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium
 Seems like all of us are pretty fond of the Ja2 portraits. (Although, personally I think there are a few like e.g. Biff's which are a bit too much Ja1 style still).

We have the newly drawn deadly games mercs by anv and Dimitri as well... I'm not someone who will speak for the whole community, but if it were up to me, use them (or as a basis) if they are okay with it and nobody is against it... It could be a way to save some budget for other stuff.

EDIT: one other suggestion. It would be nice, of course, if there would be some new mercs or characters with faces based on the JAF team cf the original JA & JA2. See it as a tradition. Wink

[Updated on: Thu, 09 May 2013 16:51] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319201] Thu, 09 May 2013 20:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
 Actually I think I might stick my hand in the air and say, yes JA2 had good portraits, but they are in need of a bit of love. Flashback isn't 640x480, so there is going to be a certain amount of detail adding needed.

Personally I really dig the graphic art style used in the art style pics so far. Using that same soft brush style I think a re-imagining could easily be pulled off with more detail and much better fidelity than the current portraits. Even with newer software the old portraits can be improved (Photoshop CS6 for instance).

Style wise the game has to feel coherent and consistent rather than a piecemeal of old + new in a technically older setting.

This is a new game, as has been said before carbon copy probably isn't the best way to go here, but definitely need to keep the face proportions and colourings.

OMG just realised we'll get to see a younger Meltdown. I'm scared...

[Updated on: Thu, 09 May 2013 20:08] by Moderator

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Lieutenant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319207] Thu, 09 May 2013 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
 Kaerar
OMG just realised we'll get to see a younger Meltdown. I'm scared...


I am SO TELLING Linda Currie about you...

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319209] Thu, 09 May 2013 21:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nekator

 
Messages:20
Registered:May 2013
as long as they have the same charme and live as the old ones.. and the mercs are recongnizeable... i could agree with Kaerar. But don

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Private 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319217] Thu, 09 May 2013 21:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DaethWalker is currently offline DaethWalker

 
Messages:98
Registered:September 2003
Location: Rocky Point, NC
 I'll go with the majority and say an updated version of JA2 Portraits. But if that's not possible for some reason, then anything that's better than the BiA portraits is fine by me. Smile

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319220] Thu, 09 May 2013 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loki7285 is currently offline Loki7285

 
Messages:33
Registered:May 2013
JA2 Style, no questions asked!!!

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Private 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319221] Thu, 09 May 2013 22:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oasis789 is currently offline oasis789

 
Messages:10
Registered:July 2011
will the portraits be animated?

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Private
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319252] Fri, 10 May 2013 08:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loki7285 is currently offline Loki7285

 
Messages:33
Registered:May 2013
I personally think make them simple, no animations or sth.
Nice JA2 or Baldurs Gate portraits.

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Private 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319257] Fri, 10 May 2013 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
Messages:2021
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
 Shanga
Kaerar
OMG just realised we'll get to see a younger Meltdown. I'm scared...


I am SO TELLING Linda Currie about you...

Uh-oh...

She might get Gumpy to tell me off...

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Lieutenant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319272] Fri, 10 May 2013 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gdalf is currently offline gdalf

 
Messages:89
Registered:May 2013
I think a slightly desaturated palette for the old war film look is necessary. JA2 didn't do this exactly, but the palette choice was similar. In 2013, desaturated is the way to do the same trick (artificially limiting the palette but in a consistent way to achieve film-look). Think instagram + artificially souped up ISO pix (introduces film 'grain')

As for hand-drawn, many of the old JA2 mugshots were actually quite horrible (especially the male characters), I could literally draw human heads better than those. I didn't really care for the newer ones done by the JA community here either, they felt too 'clean' for me (lack of grain, faces too smooth).

But I know I'm hard to please heh.

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319276] Fri, 10 May 2013 14:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Cipriano is currently offline Cipriano

Messages:3
Registered:May 2013
Location: France
 Good day everyone,

Played a game recently produced by a company that's also from Copenhaguen, Denmark. Played
it only for a few hours as i don't like sci-fi, but they got a very skilled portrait and
detailed military gear artist.It's called Zombie Pandemic a sector based TB game, i'll
post a screenshot on the forums, you could contact them if needed or if you like their art
style. Imo painted animated portraits in that direction of art style would be good for a
game like Flashback.
Anyway, hope the Kickstarter campaign for JA:F will succeed and reach many stretch goals.
http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/7971/57373905.jpg

http://img203.imageshack.us/img203/2308/38356086.jpg

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Civilian
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319296] Fri, 10 May 2013 18:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taro_M is currently offline Taro_M

 
Messages:292
Registered:November 2008
Im with you guys on this one. NO 3D faces please. Not only such faces lack character, but due to perspective being applied to them the faces look really weird.

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Master Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319339] Sat, 11 May 2013 06:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany
 Well, as for 3D faces: they only really work when they are made by a real skillful artist, with lots of attention to detail. The good thing about them is, that you can make them a lot more expressive and dynamical, reacting to different situations and showing dynamical effects and gear on them with little effort.

What i would like for JA:F is:

- approximately similar style to JA2, but higher quality
- facestyles fitting to the time period ( 80

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First Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319348] Sat, 11 May 2013 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pambam is currently offline Pambam

 
Messages:18
Registered:May 2013
No 3D but more animations for 2D. Focus should be on cool, for characters like shadow, not making all 80's funny. Hitman today looks still 80 for me.

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Private
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #319360] Sat, 11 May 2013 14:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3717
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
 Think that's this topic agreed and ended Very Happy

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320554] Fri, 24 May 2013 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Arkard is currently offline Arkard

 
Messages:18
Registered:January 2004
Location: Finland
 I think the graphic style the guys at Full Control are going for looks pretty sweet, but if there's one thing I wouldn't touch on is the merc faces. How they did it from JA1&DG to JA2 was great. I'm just hoping to see similar portraits as in JA2, just in higher res of course. I think the camera angle from the front is classic. I also think the style should be fairly similar to the originals.

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Private
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320556] Fri, 24 May 2013 15:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jimmious

 
Messages:10
Registered:March 2007
Location: Greece
 Really like the portraits Shanga posted. I'd easily go for something like that

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Private
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320558] Fri, 24 May 2013 15:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR is currently offline JP'TR

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
 @FC
I can say with the old style you definitly are not doing something wrong. Razz

But how about "Facegear" like Helmets/Sunglases, do you plan to show them in the portraits?
If yes, this can be more complicated bec. of animations and the differ headsizes of Mercs. You would have to make all facegear for all Mercs one by one, i guess.

In 3D, its even more complicated, and i not realy can imagine that it will fit the style of JA, but maybe i am just BiA damaged in this point.

Maybe you should simply choose 1 preview Merc like Shadow, everybody knows him, and try a view different versions of him, and show us these previews. Smile
They not have to be animated already, just the view, with gear/or without, 3D, or oldschool.
Edit: Maybe a lady too, like young Scope. Cool

[Updated on: Fri, 24 May 2013 16:04] by Moderator

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Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320560] Fri, 24 May 2013 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
 I've checked Jesper Andersen's artist blog and he's more than capable of coming up with some great hand drawn faces, trust me. Plus the man knows his gun porn. See for yourself:

http://scribblehead.blogspot.dk/


http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/245.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/246.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/247.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/249.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/250.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/251.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/full/252.jpg

[Updated on: Fri, 24 May 2013 16:08] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320561] Fri, 24 May 2013 16:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR is currently offline JP'TR

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
 Agree, thats porn, should be censored! Very Happy

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Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320562] Fri, 24 May 2013 16:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
 Voyevoda
Agree, thats porn, should be censored! Very Happy


What did you say? Make porn pics BIGGER? Here you go Smile

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320569] Fri, 24 May 2013 16:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
 Oh and while you're it, check out Javier O'Neill too. More 3D stuff and less hand drawn materials but when it comes to interiors and textures, he knows his stuff. Plus you're all familiar now with the golden AK and the pink M16...

http://joneill3dartist.carbonmade.com/

http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/253.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/254.jpghttp://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/gallery/80/medium/255.jpg

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320622] Fri, 24 May 2013 17:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lytinwheedle is currently offline Lytinwheedle

 
Messages:78
Registered:November 2001
Location: Luxembourg
 Voyevoda
@FC
But how about "Facegear" like Helmets/Sunglases, do you plan to show them in the portraits?

I wouldn't think it's necessary, the character models will be wearing the gear, I'd keep the portraits nice and uncluttered.

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Corporal
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320625] Fri, 24 May 2013 18:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JP'TR is currently offline JP'TR

 
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
 Lytinwheedle
Voyevoda
@FC
But how about "Facegear" like Helmets/Sunglases, do you plan to show them in the portraits?

I wouldn't think it's necessary, the character models will be wearing the gear, I'd keep the portraits nice and uncluttered.


Think similiar, even if its unrealistic to see them talking in the portrait without everything and standing at the map with helmet and glases, it keeps the personality feeling to see the faces. If in the end all have masks and are covered, it would be not nice.
And its a lot of work what you can avoid with this easier way.

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Sergeant
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320627] Fri, 24 May 2013 18:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
 Aye. While it's cool to see what your mercs are wearing on their portraits directly, this got very confusing when they all wore gasmasks or NVGs, as everybody looked the same. Camo paint should be shown on faces, but gear should be optional, but not default.

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Captain
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320640] Fri, 24 May 2013 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Slax is currently offline Slax

 
Messages:1410
Registered:July 2006
Location: People riding polar bears...
 Weapon design (and SELECTION!) is very important for a game like Jagged Alliance.
Looks like this dude's got a nice grasp on getting the 3D sexiness down.

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Sergeant Major
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320679] Fri, 24 May 2013 22:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JayM is currently offline JayM

 
Messages:83
Registered:May 2013
I also think slightly updated JA2 graphics are the right things. many people feel attached to these mercs and while they obviously will have to be younger, you don't want to look at a complete stranger due to different graphics. never change a winning team - in German we have that great word to "verschlimmbessern", which means that while you tried to improve something, you made it worse.

the pics shanga posted are too comic-style (though they are not bad and would surely work well with a different game!) and the ones by thor (ron faces) look a bit too slick for my liking. JA mercs should look a bit rugged.

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: A serious question regarding mercenaries faces[message #320680] Fri, 24 May 2013 22:26 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
JayM is currently offline JayM

 
Messages:83
Registered:May 2013
Flugente
Aye. While it's cool to see what your mercs are wearing on their portraits directly, this got very confusing when they all wore gasmasks or NVGs, as everybody looked the same. Camo paint should be shown on faces, but gear should be optional, but not default.


+1

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Corporal 1st Class
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