Home » FULL CONTROL GAMES » JA: Flashback (Solutions. Tips. Spoilers!) » Maps in Flashback
| Maps in Flashback[message #320881]
|
Sun, 26 May 2013 12:42 
|
|
 Thor |
 |
Messages:423
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium |
|
|
Is anything decided about how large the maps will be? I'm a bit concerned about this. The maps (that I have seen) in Frontline tactics seem very small and currently in Ja2 we are trying to get them even bigger in AIMNAS with the bigmaps (which I personally think is a good thing as it gives more strategic possibilities).
So, what are the opinions concerning this aspect of the game?
And what is already decided by the JAF team?
[Updated on: Sun, 26 May 2013 12:45] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
|
Master Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #320908]
|
Sun, 26 May 2013 18:06 
|
|
| grim |
|
Messages:344
Registered:July 2006
Location: France |
|
|
If i understand well, you want to build sectors like Fallout ones, depending on the content. OK
Just a note: Jagged Alliance is a bit more tactical than Fallout. It's always nice to have some room to move and fight, to use the range of long barrel weapons, use cover to move around, ambush, retreat, etc. Even a toilet in the middle of nowhere can have some jungle around to maneuver (and avoid the stink and flies), a path to reach it (with some ennemy passage you can ambush), an underground conduct to some water dump (anyone want to go stealth?)  . By the way, i don't know if you will implement sector movable vehicules (i hope for it very hard!), but those need even more space. That would mean Fallout tactics sector sizes rather than Fallout 1 ones.
Anyway i trust you to make them balanced, and hope we'll reach the stretch goal to make our own (big) maps.
Report message to a moderator
|
Master Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #320932]
|
Sun, 26 May 2013 21:08
|
|
| Thor |
|
Messages:423
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium |
|
|
Maybe I have a wrong idea about what is meant here with small sectors, I hope I do, but the sectors in Frontline tactics or the diorama shot are really very small to me. Think that around villages or camps there should be enough space to manoeuvre in most cases and that's not what I saw there. Indeed, like Grim says, if in a small sector you meet an enemy patrol which isn't lying in ambush, you still want to be able to move around it... Avoiding tactics are very important tactics, hit and run also... Against oversized & overpowered enemies you want some breathing space and not end up in the middle of them immediately. You want to choose which side to attack from, choose your ground if possible, do some planning...
Personally I don't mind big sectors at all, what a weird idea that they would be boring. You can use scouts, binoculars, vehicles maybe, snipers, heavy weapons, explosives... Preparing an attack is a big part of the fun, the distance and advantages of several gun types also. So, they are not boring, on the contrary. Okay, maybe to test a game that you know inside out it is boring as it takes a bit longer, I can imagine that. To find a last enemy can be a drag too, but there are other solutions for that as shown e.g. in Ja2 v.1.13 & AIMNAS. Anyway, I don't need to find every item in the sector either, that adds to replayability. I like it that you have to travel a long time sometimes... Jungles should be huge, even if there is nothing there to find or to meet. Even more exciting if you meet enemies there. Does anyone think it boring in JA2 AIMNAS? Don't think so... AIMNAS is very popular as far as I can tell and not for the least because of the big maps. I like the freedom of movement too.. Some mountain ridges, bridges, lakes, deserts, etc. are not only nice to look at, but they can give strategical advantage or disadvantage in a big map. A player also wants disadvantages to make something interesting but his approach should not be limited by the size of a sector in my opinion as it is a very unrealistic limitation. Maybe a stupid argument for a computer game, but in my eyes I rather think that is something cheap and not a map in which you can't find anything but some rocks and a casual tree.
I agree that you can have small maps like at the edges of the island or near inaccessable mountain ridges, in mining shafts, undergrounds, tunnels, caves, small islands themselves,... Even for an introductory mission. Otherwise I definitely prefer big maps so that you can decide which side you want to attack from. To surround a base or outflank enemy patrols and open fire from different corners to confuse, divert, and split troops.
Territory alone is enough sometimes for a map, it shouldn't be stocked with stuff either, it can be empty apart from nature textures at times, that's not cheap. It makes for advantages and disadvantages like in real life... The one who choses his ground well first gets the advantage.
You can have spies in remote sectors to see enemies approaching or passing by in order to have enough time to prepare your men and base. You can use binoculars and snipers in big maps, but what is that expensive sniper rifle good for if you can't make use of its extra range? Indeed, nothing... On the contrary, it's not only a disadvantage against assault rifles and smgs in a small thight-packed jungle sector with a toilet only  , but also in a small desert sector it would be reduced to "almost worthless". Big warehouses or appartment buildings are like 'small sectors' in big maps also.
Lastly, I'll give some nice example of hit & run advantage... Don't need Geronimo for that, maybe somebody remembers the story of the Horatii & Curatii.
Quote: According to Livy, the Horatii were male triplets from Rome. During a war between Rome and Alba Longa during the reign of Tullus Hostilius (approx. 672-642 B.C.), it was agreed that settlement of the war would depend on the outcome of a battle between the Horatii and the Curiatii. The Curiatii were male triplets from Alba Longa and of the same age as the Horatii.
In the battle, the three Curiatii were wounded [in various degrees], but two of the Horatii were killed. The last of the Horatii, Publius, turned as if to flee. The Curiatii chased him but, as a result of their wounds, became separated. This enabled Publius to slay them one by one.
Report message to a moderator
|
Master Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #320952]
|
Sun, 26 May 2013 23:35
|
|
| JP'TR |
 |
Messages:104
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
|
|
JAFTeamThe thing is... what do you need big maps for if the content just isn't there.
THE MOST sectors in JA2 are empty, just large woods, empty green fields, swamps or open deserts... if an enemy unit is present, and you don't know where they are located you have your content.
To be honestly, i'm a bit confused about this statement...
btw. if you think the work could degenerate... these open empty sectors don't need a special design like your diorama with ruins or other extras. I would say it is more important to have them big for a lot free movement instead of filled them up with very exclusive, hand designed and not repeating content.
Of course it must not be copy & paste, but just an empty wood with trees only is not wrong for a JA, taking care for snipers, mines, or just the search for enemy troops is enough content for these type of maps, off-road.
JA2 mapsize should be the minimum for every map.
[Updated on: Mon, 27 May 2013 00:02] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
|
Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #320977]
|
Mon, 27 May 2013 11:08
|
|
| gdalf |
 |
Messages:89
Registered:May 2013 |
|
|
I think we're more likely to agree if a sector is too small than if it's too large. In some of the JA2 sectors the minute you entered in could have a problem with rooftop snipers or something like that because it was crammed with buildings. Realistically there should be some minimum distance of approach for any sector, including urban ones. Especially urban ones in fact, given that snipers in tall apartments would be a real challenge that we never got a taste of in JA2. Larger sectors give more room for tactical variation if there's enough content in the middle.
A 'desert' sector which is large and realistic (where much of the action involves firefights against enemies several hundred meters away) might seem boring only if the tools you have for dealing with it are limited. Sand dunes, sniper rifles, mortars, binoculars/periscopes, weapons mounted on vehicles, etc would make a huge difference. But taking it on with just pistols and you basically have to run up to all the different enemies to kill them and that would be terrible.
As for the clearing-out-the-last-soldier problem, I wonder if this can be creatively addressed in some other manner? If you can't find them after a certain amount of time, let them escape (promote them to make them something you don't want to see in round 2) or become some kind of insurgent who wreaks havoc behind the lines?
Report message to a moderator
|
Corporal 1st Class
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #321034]
|
Tue, 28 May 2013 00:03
|
|
| Thor |
|
Messages:423
Registered:February 2007
Location: Belgium |
|
|
Agree with DepressivesBrot... Okay, agree with most of ya... But to have room for manoeuvering when there is a possibility to encounter enemies is most important to me too... And I suppose that's how I understand the JAF team.
Even in canyons, tunnels, caves, that kind of sectors... especially in that kind of sector, there should be a possibility to scout first... Of course there can be ambushes and enemies behind-the-door-style-stuff, hidden snipers, etc... but like many people have repeated in this forum, this is not xcom where you can replace mercs without getting loyalty issues etc., so in most cases it should at least be possible to advance prudently... that you have a choice. This is a strategy game after all, right? Of course there will be times that there is only one way ahead... not talking about that.
And If it is clear which sectors are huge and which are smaller (could be general sector info), I guess it will be possible to plan a trip in regard to energy loss and that kind of things...
Maybe there are vehicles like in Ja2 to get to other sectors, maybe even more advanced than in Ja2... Although that is not the most important aspect to me, I'm curious. 
[Updated on: Tue, 28 May 2013 00:17] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
|
Master Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #321061]
|
Tue, 28 May 2013 11:19
|
|
| Mauser |
 |
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany |
|
|
The main issue with map sizes, apart from maneuvering and flanking, is for me, that the player at least should have enough space all around to properly plan the approach on the enemy, because it makes absolutely no sense, if a group of professionals blunder into a location and move so close as to get into view range of the enemies therein. Jagged Alliance Online has this problem, where the maps are often so small, that you can see the first enemies right away, but also most often do not have many options of movement or approach, as most possible paths are barred somehow.
Also, there
Report message to a moderator
|
First Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #321116]
|
Wed, 29 May 2013 08:56
|
|
| Mauser |
|
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany |
|
|
Hyrax
Although, for the ironman mode, larger maps means more enemies (logical?) and that may result in battles lasting for hours and replays lasting for hours and hours.
Not necessarily Hyrax. Even a relatively large map can have comparatively few enemies, concentrated in one or a few locations, making for either well paced and segmented or concentrated and intense battles. Just imagine a large Farm, with the enemies concentrated around and inside the main buildings and maybe the main road nearby, with plenty of fields, hedges and woods all around. A few enemies could be patrolling the perimeter, whilst some sleep in the barn and others drink in the main house, some guarding the road etc.
You would have plenty of possibilities to attack them during night and day, stealthy ones and brute force ones.
For example, you could choose multiple directions of approach, maybe through the woods, maybe through the fields.
You could either stealthily scour the surroundings and dispatch of the patrols, before attacking the main force, or sneak a merc to the barn at night, mining/booby trapping the entrance, then set fire to the barn or using gas to dispatch the sleeping enemies siletly, whilst your snipers stay out of sight, waiting in the dark on a nearby small hill or within haystacks for the enemies to run into the light as they come to fight the fire, including the patrols who come running back to the main force etc.
Or maybe have a map where you
Report message to a moderator
|
First Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| Re: Maps in Flashback[message #321205]
|
Thu, 30 May 2013 17:53
|
|
| Mauser |
|
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
Location: Bavaria - Germany |
|
|
DepressivesBrotNo random sectors. I hated being "ambushed" on the same 5 7.62 maps over and over and over again.
True. But what about sectors with randomly varied elements to make them less repetitive?
Instead of just spawning enemies or loot, why not spawn buildings, walls and fences, trees, rocks, traps, minefields and light sources too semi-randomly, in order to bring a sense of uncertainty and variation into some sectors, which also allows for new tactical possibilities with each playthrough?
Generally it would be awesome to have maps where you can spawn dynamical structures permanently, as to build additional fortifications etc., so why not use this to include dynamical additions to certain maps, which can be shuffled with each new playthrough from a predetermined set of possible elements and layouts? Which also could be linked to certain script triggers, so maps change with certain quests, actions or progress.
This way, the player gets much less repetitive playthroughs and the mappers can add lots of variation without having to completely build a map from scratch each time.
Report message to a moderator
|
First Sergeant
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri Jan 10 18:17:49 GMT+2 2025
Total time taken to generate the page: 0.01987 seconds
|
Blog
Search
Help
Members
Register
Login
Home
