Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » Split the 'Ranger' trait
 Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339683]
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Thu, 26 February 2015 23:14 
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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The new trait system is excellent - no question about that. What seems a bit odd to me though is the 'Hunter/Ranger' trait. The reason is that while all other weapon classes have traits dedicated to them (Auto weapons, Heavy weapons, Sniper, Gunslinger, Hand to hand), Ranger is a mixture. It's mostly shotguns, a bit of rifles and then survival stuff:
- +%d%s CtH with Rifles
- +%d%s CtH with Shotguns
- -%d%s APs needed to pump Shotguns
- -%d%s APs to fire Shotguns
- Adds %d more aim click(s) for Shotguns
- +%d%s group traveling speed between sectors if traveling by foot
- +%d%s group traveling speed between sectors if traveling in vehicle (except helicopter)
- -%d%s less energy spent for travelling between sectors
- -%d%s weather penalties
- +%d%s camouflage effectiveness
- -%d%s worn out speed of camouflage by water or time
- Can spot tracks up to %d tiles away
I would really like to divide this trait. Currently, the trait doesn't really fit anybody - mercs like Shadow, Monk and Spooky clearly have it so they get the survival stuff - but there is no justification why these mercs would be exceptionally good with shotguns, or even prefer them. Leech clearly has it for the gun part, no reason for him to be a survival expert. Same for others who get it mostly for the shotgun part.
The survival stuff would be justifiable as a minor trait of its own I think - Survival. We could add -x% food/drink consumption and +x% physical/disease resistance for more flavour.
The weapon part is a bit more trickier. Mostly because shotguns suck ingame. Their damage might be high, but the AP cost is extremely high. If your merc is also moving in his turn, you won't get more than one aimed shot off. If that one does not kill the target (which happens later on with better armour), you're dead. Couple that with bad accuracy and low range, and you have a very bad gun. Suppression is high, but I want my guns to kill people, not temporarily annoy them. Lockbusting is useless, as any gun can do that. A simple M4 outclasses a shotgun in almost every scenario.
Anyway, we could just leave the current gun-stuff as it is, but that will make the trait pretty bad, especially for a two-stage trait.
One idea would be to split the gun part into two separate one-stage traits: Rifle proficiency and Shotgun proficiency. This would solve all character issues. Mercs would be able to do what they should and not get illogical boni.
The rifle trait would obviously be a bit... empty. Hmm. Who uses rifles ingame later on? Not ARs and not SRs, just rifles? Are there even decent ones? I guess the Beowulf is there... the Garand, Mosin-Nagant and K-98 are inferior to the 7.62 battle rifles... and there are the rocket rifles, but let's not go there. Is there anything that would be able to make rifles stand out lategame?
[Updated on: Thu, 26 February 2015 23:14]
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339700 is a reply to message #339694]
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Fri, 27 February 2015 13:23 
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Hmm. Maybe I wasn't clear in that regard. In itself, the ranger trait makes sense. But I question having it around in the first place. The other weapon traits are simply about handling a specific gun class. The ranger trait is about handling two gun classes with tacked-on boni to other things that are not related to any weapon at all. And it also does not make sense that someone good at surviving in the wilds would somehow automatically be good in handling shotguns.
The shotgun proficiency would go to those mercs that currently have the ranger trait, but no because of the survival stuff.
I guess your enemies' progress must be different from mine (or the ones that I remember), because I remember buckshot only working rarely if the enemy had even mildly decent armour. I also play with lower suppression, because I find it irritating that a few bullets stun my entire team I often had the impression that suppression affected mercs disproportionately, but haven't found a clue in the code towards that.
Hmm.
Lowering the AP cost would likely be the best change, as one shot doesn't cut it.
As it is, to me, Ranger is useless apart from the survival stuff later on. That makes it not quite as useless as Gunslinger or melee later on, but I still see it as a waste.
[Updated on: Fri, 27 February 2015 13:24]
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339705 is a reply to message #339704]
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Fri, 27 February 2015 16:32
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| Deleted. |
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Messages:2657
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation |
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I always wanted to equip my tech merc with a shotgun (and have some bonuses for shooting with it), but without that "survive in the woods" scout/ranger thing.
For example, Gasket should look nice with a boomstick, but he's definitely not a forester but a car mechanic.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 18:58]
Left this community.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339712 is a reply to message #339707]
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Fri, 27 February 2015 22:32
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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FYI, I'm currently coding the split of the trait into Survival and Shotgun proficiency. Shotgun proficiency gets the boni for shotguns and rifles, and I'm open to a better name (singleshot twohanded bullet guns without auto? Rifle(wo)manning?). I will make this a one-stage major trait - major as this is a weapon trait, and one-stage as it has lost quite a lot of boni, so no need to invest 2 points in there.
Survival will be a minor trait.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339716 is a reply to message #339714]
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Sat, 28 February 2015 00:04
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Hmm. It'll be less useful then. Hmm.
Also, fun fact: the IMP creation is bugged. The order in which you select traits affects how high your in stats have to be... for example, pick Marksman and then Gunslinger, and you'll need 65 MRK. Pick Gunslinger and then Marksman, and you'll only need 55 MRK.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 00:06]
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339717 is a reply to message #339714]
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Sat, 28 February 2015 00:17
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 Cardinal |
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Messages:45
Registered:September 2014 |
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It's probably not my place to barge in but here are a few suggestions:
-Maybe you could do something similar to what Strohmann did in SDO - move some of the DMR's from the ubWeaponType sniper rifle to rifle (SVD variants, Zastava m76 and the like).
-The marksman/sniper class' aim level reduction bonus seems to refer to ubWeaponClass rather than ubWeaponType (it gives the bonus to sniper rifles, rifles and ARs) - make it 'sniper rifle' specific and give the 'rifle' aim level reduction bonus to hunter/ranger.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 00:25] Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339719 is a reply to message #339718]
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Sat, 28 February 2015 00:43
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Hmm. For now I'm simply creating the new minor trait, and moving the non-gun boni to there.
I am still unsure about Ranger (now purely gun-based) staying two-staged. In that case I feel it should get upped boni and/or new ones, like what Cardinal proposed. Or I could make it one-staged, and add lower boni, but higher than lvl1 Ranger.
@edmortimer: Well, I want to split that. One can then still create a hunter by picking Ranger (the now pure-gun trait) and survival, but it doesn't make sense for those two to always stuck together.
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #339721 is a reply to message #339720]
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Sat, 28 February 2015 01:35
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3507
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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As or r7756/Gamedir r2213, Survival is now a minor trait. Settings are in Skills_Settings.xml, the boni are somewhat in between the old lvl1 and lvl2 ranger boni.
The following merc have new traits:
- Igor: Stealthy, Survival (was: Stealthy, Hunter)
- Shadow: Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Stealthy, Survival (was: Ranger, Stealthy)
- Tex: Ambidextrous, Gunfighter (was: Ambidextrous, Hunter, Gunslinger ) + maxed background camo bonus - it seems obvious to me he only had hunter because of the camo part, which is now taken care of by his background
- Monk: Auto weapons, Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Survival (was: Auto weapons, Ranger, which violated the maximum number of major traits!)
- Spooky: Melee, Stealthy, Survival (was: Ranger, Melee)
- Manuel: Stealty, Athletics, Survival (was: Stealty, Athletics, Hunter)
Also fixed the IMP creation min stat requirement bug.
[Updated on: Sat, 28 February 2015 01:35]
I know now that it could never work between us, as much as we wanted to, it could never be! Not because you're a rabbit, but because you're black.
If you want, you can donate to me. This will not affect how and what I code, and I will not code specific features in return. I will be thankful though.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #345801 is a reply to message #339721]
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Fri, 03 June 2016 01:12
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| Julix |
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Messages:105
Registered:June 2010
Location: Canada |
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Flugente wrote on Sat, 28 February 2015 00:35 ...
[*] Shadow: Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Stealthy, Survival (was: Ranger, Stealthy)
[*] Monk: Auto weapons, Hunter (can be replaced with sth. more fitting), Survival (was: Auto weapons, Ranger, which violated the maximum number of major traits!)
...
I was wondering what was up with the amount of hunters we suddenly have. See for the old folks with rifles and shot guns it makes perfect sence, but neither Monk nor Shadow had any indication of a rifle preference in the old system. Shadow was very particular about not sharing his camo-kit (represented by never having one and just always being in camo), similar to Tex. His premium is a sniper rifle and the wiki is riddled with references to him being a sniper. Monk on the other hand is all about assault rifles. Why not make him an auto-expert (and survival) and Shadow a Marksman/Stealth/Survival? -- I don't think it's over-powered compared to how little camo ends up doing for you now that you can't just paint your whole body anymore... unless you have a crazy amount of gear. Definitively more realistic though.
Anyway, my 2 ct. - give em something besides Hunter. Don't want to be tempted to give them shotguns...
And yeah, as for stacking guides - It saves so much money on travel time, that it's almost impossible to justify not hiring Igor, Shadow or Monk (or IMP) and another one once you find Manuel for a second squad. The helicopter becomes much less necessary, as does the ice cream truck (though it's nice for big inventory of carrying stuff - a tertiary clean-up squad...) - Last I played I finished the game in a ridiculously short time (because I also save-scummed and so rarely had wounded soldiers and with that travel speed could basically skip militia...)
[Updated on: Fri, 03 June 2016 22:55] Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: Split the 'Ranger' trait[message #365159 is a reply to message #339683]
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Sun, 12 February 2023 06:31
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| Warp_2568 |
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Messages:14
Registered:January 2022 |
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Currently playing an older version of 1.13 (Revision 8730). Experimented with Ranger/Ambidextrous IMP and its a huge success for tight corridor situations. Dual wielding Sawed-Offs in two shot mode is the most damage per turn than any other gun (except CAWS auto mode).
In addition, the reload speed of shotgun shells is a lot quicker when paired with the Ambidex trait.
Also experimented with the Super Mini Shotgun. The APs to ready/fire are comparable to a pistol when attaching Reflex sight and handing it to a Ranger. Placed a Ballistic Shield in the Ranger's offhand and I got a literal unstoppable juggernaut of a merc, easily clears all of Alma military base by himself.
However, the drawback for Ranger build is not having any advantages for long range engagements. I think the Rifle bonuses need to be buffed. Or buff the Rifles.
[Updated on: Sun, 12 February 2023 09:03] Report message to a moderator
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