The Bears Pit: v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Disarming TNT / Detecting Traps

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Disarming TNT / Detecting Traps[message #340175]

Sun, 22 March 2015 19:37

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Kaboom has an EXP skill of 85 but he cannot disarm TNT. WTH?

EDIT: More specifically, in build 1.13.7609 (build 14.10.24), mercs with the Demolitions skill or Optimist trait cannot detect their own traps. Therefore, they will never, ever be able to disarm their own TNT. Silversurfer has addressed this bug in r7811.

However, another problem remains. Mercs like Ears and Hurl are mysteriously unable to detect the traps of their own TNT. No known solution.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 April 2015 19:48]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340393 is a reply to message #340175]

Fri, 03 April 2015 19:00

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

After further testing, it has nothing to do with EXP skill. I leveled Gumpy's EXP to 100. He has a WIS of 94 still. He's level 3. He too cannot disarm TNT. However, Flo--with lower AGI, DEX, EXP and WIS than Gumpy--can. She's level 4 though.

Perhaps level 4 is the cutoff for disarming TNT? Or perhaps there is a bug in the code that permanently disallows some mercs from disarming TNT?

[Updated on: Fri, 03 April 2015 19:00]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340395 is a reply to message #340393]

Fri, 03 April 2015 19:12

Messages:2634
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation

fightcancer
If you arm explosive with a demolition expert, it will be hard to disarm it later (even with that same merc).
You can check the chance to disarm a TNT by selecting 'inspect' from menu.

You can also use remote defuse/remote combo to safely disarm TNT later or simply blow it up with grenade :-)

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340396 is a reply to message #340395]

Fri, 03 April 2015 19:24

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Hard, I can understand. Impossible doesn't make sense. I have never been able to disarm TNT with either Kaboom or Gumpy. I am sad.

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340440 is a reply to message #340395]

Sun, 05 April 2015 19:11

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

sevenfm wrote on Fri, 03 April 2015 16:12

You can also use remote defuse/remote combo to safely disarm TNT later or simply blow it up with grenade :-)

How does this work please? I bought a Remote Defuse off Bobby Ray's but I can't use it. Thanks.

I also have a Remote Detonator and a Remote Bomb Trigger.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 April 2015 03:23]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340451 is a reply to message #340440]

Mon, 06 April 2015 03:23

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

After further testing, not only can Gumpy, a Demolitions expert with an EXP skill of 100, not disarm his own TNT, he can't disarm Flo's TNT either.

It seems like a bug.

Also, when Gumpy and Kaboom try to disarm TNT, they don't even get the menu option "Disarm booby trap?". They just get an explosion.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 April 2015 03:25]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340459 is a reply to message #340451]

Mon, 06 April 2015 15:39

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

The problem is not the disarming part. This works well. The problem is that the merc doesn't detect that the item is trapped and therefore the disarm dialogue doesn't pop up.

This is handled in function BOOLEAN ContinuePastBoobyTrap in "Handle Items.cpp". When my level 1 Gumpy plants TNT with Detonator it has a trap level of 7. He only has a trap detect level of 2 so he can't even see that this TNT is live although he previously planted it himself. It blows up in his face before the skill check ever runs.

The question is if we should set OBJECT_KNOWN_TO_BE_TRAPPED on any trap that the player plants himself or if this has bad side effects.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340460 is a reply to message #340459]

Mon, 06 April 2015 16:01

Messages:2634
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation

If I remember correctly, I disabled setting MAPELEMENT_PLAYER_MINE_PRESENT flag for non-buried bombs in r6606, because doing it for regular TNT will prevent player from stepping on the tile with dropped explosive.
Probably previously this flag helped to disarm TNT (but only until game was saved/loaded when the flag was lost).

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340461 is a reply to message #340459]

Mon, 06 April 2015 16:36

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

silversurfer wrote on Mon, 06 April 2015 12:39

The problem is not the disarming part. This works well. The problem is that the merc doesn't detect that the item is trapped and therefore the disarm dialogue doesn't pop up.

FWIW, Flo is arming the TNT in question. Flo can detect the trap. Flo can disarm the trap. Gumpy can neither detect nor disarm the trap. angry

angry

...And in this case, Gumpy is a Demolitions expert with EXP at 100.

[Updated on: Mon, 06 April 2015 16:38]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340471 is a reply to message #340461]

Mon, 06 April 2015 22:45

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

MAPELEMENT_PLAYER_MINE_PRESENT shouldn't be set for this. It's for mines (and probably tripwire) only. Setting OBJECT_KNOWN_TO_BE_TRAPPED along with OBJECT_ARMED_BOMB (this is set already) for any of our armed explosives would be better in my opinion. This way our mercs would know their own traps which makes sense.

Flo doesn't have Demolition trait so her bombs have the same bomb level as her detect level. That's why she can find them. Demolitions has nothing to do with detecting traps. The trap detection level is improved only for Technicians.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340505 is a reply to message #340471]

Thu, 09 April 2015 06:04

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Oh no! "MD" also, and he's not a Demolitions expert. angry

angry

Is there any way to tell which mercs have this bug before I hire them?

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340514 is a reply to message #340505]

Sat, 11 April 2015 03:00

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

I think I better understand this bug now.

Currently, mercs do not know their own traps. Therefore, any trait or skill that 1) boosts a merc's ability to set traps, or 2) hurts a merc's ability to detect traps will cause the merc to fail to disarm TNT. The Demolitions skill adds +5 to your bomb level. Therefore, the merc cannot disarm his own bomb. The Optimist trait lowers a merc's ability to detect traps. Therefore, the merc cannot detect his own TNT trap/bomb.

So any mercs with the Demolitions skill or Optimist trait will not be able to disarm the the TNT they set.

I suggest 2 things.

1) The demolitions skill should give one an advantage in detecting traps.
2) Mercs should be able to recognize their own traps.

Still Unknown
Why can Gumpy with EXP 100 not detect Flo's TNT trap?

[Updated on: Sat, 11 April 2015 18:32]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340521 is a reply to message #340514]

Sat, 11 April 2015 18:50

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

Fixed in r7811. From now on every bomb that we arm will have OBJECT_KNOWN_TO_BE_TRAPPED set. After all we should know what we armed, shouldn't we?
Now only the skill check is relevant when disarming own traps. It's still possible to fail this one as Gumpy had to learn the hard way. cheeky

cheeky

Suggestion 1 will not be implemented as demolitions trait has nothing to do with finding traps.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340527 is a reply to message #340521]

Sat, 11 April 2015 22:19

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Awesome! Ty SS!

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340711 is a reply to message #340175]

Sat, 25 April 2015 05:35

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

There are other bugs that might need to be addressed.

1) Gumpy cannot disarm Flo's TNT.
2) Ears cannot disarm his own TNT.

I don't understand these 2 oddities.

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340713 is a reply to message #340711]

Sat, 25 April 2015 10:45

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

Forget these two mercs. Their mechanical and explosives stats are so bad you can't expect them to disarm any traps.

In my test game Gumpy didn't have a single point of mechanical skill. For disarming traps the merc needs a value greater than zero.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340718 is a reply to message #340713]

Sat, 25 April 2015 15:45

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

...Hence my concern.

Gumpy
EXP: 100, MEC: 21

Ears
EXP: 99, MEC: 28

However, Larry (with EXP: 100, MEC: 24) can disarm TNT just fine and I power leveled his WIS to 100 also.

There's something else going on here, but it's not a big deal. Just wanted to mention it.

EDIT: To be more specific, neither Ears nor Gumpy can even detect the trap. So they get no option to disarm the trap. It just explodes.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 April 2015 18:07]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340719 is a reply to message #340718]

Sat, 25 April 2015 19:48

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Hurl is also broken.
EXP: 99, MEC: 2

He cannot disarm TNT as he cannot detect the trap.

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340720 is a reply to message #340719]

Sat, 25 April 2015 20:55

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

None of these mercs are broken. They just are no explosives experts. It takes explosives and mechanical skill in addition to dexterity, experience and wisdom. Those who do not have demolition trait suffer a penalty. Use the proper mercs to disarm explosives and not those M.E.R.C wannabes.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340722 is a reply to message #340720]

Sat, 25 April 2015 21:59

edmortimer is currently offline

Messages:1533
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free

Quote:

None of these mercs are broken. They just are no explosives experts. It takes explosives and mechanical skill in addition to dexterity, experience and wisdom. Those who do not have demolition trait suffer a penalty. Use the proper mercs to disarm explosives and not those M.E.R.C wannabes.

While you are correct on most of those Mercs that have been mentioned, I have to remind you what the game says about Gumpy. Now, I realize that the bio descriptions can oftimes be pure advertising propaganda, I'd have to say that the following description must have at least a kernel of truth in it.

"Tim is a brilliant explosives expert who catches on quickly. When it comes to explosives though, there really isn't much room for error."

Edit: Also, Buns says this about him: "What is it about Gumpy? How can someone so smart be such a disgusting slob? Maybe his parents were first cousins."

Edit: Of course, it CAN be all advertising propaganda just to get Gumpy blown up . . . for a joke.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 April 2015 22:06]

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Sergeant Major

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340725 is a reply to message #340722]

Sat, 25 April 2015 23:37

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

When it comes to M.E.R.C almost everything is false advertisement. Just look at Biff, Raffi, Kaboom or Gumpy. Gumpy at least has some brains but his other stats are less than mediocre.
There is a reason why they are cheap...

Gumpy should probably have some mechanical skill so that he doesn't fail automatically when disarming traps. I don't know why he was set to 0 to start with.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 April 2015 23:38]

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340726 is a reply to message #340720]

Sat, 25 April 2015 23:38

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

silversurfer wrote on Sat, 25 April 2015 17:55

None of these mercs are broken. They just are no explosives experts. It takes explosives and mechanical skill in addition to dexterity, experience and wisdom. Those who do not have demolition trait suffer a penalty. Use the proper mercs to disarm explosives and not those M.E.R.C wannabes.

Is there a specific stat cutoff you recommend for mercs to be able to disarm/detect their own TNT booby traps, e.g. MEC: 45, EXP: 80, WIS: 75, etc.?

My goal is to level WIS to 100. Arming TNT used to be the best way to do so. How can I know which mercs are incapable of disarming TNT?

Thanks.

[Updated on: Sat, 25 April 2015 23:40]

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340727 is a reply to message #340725]

Sat, 25 April 2015 23:39

edmortimer is currently offline

Messages:1533
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free

True. But the question being raised, I think, is that of is there a hidden AI cheat stopping Gumpy (& others) from performing as expected even when their stats are raised to sufficient levels?

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Sergeant Major

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340728 is a reply to message #340727]

Sun, 26 April 2015 00:09

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

There is no hidden AI cheat. The skill check just covers a lot of factors including trait bonus/penalty, morale and disability. And of course the result is based on a random function. It doesn't always have to fail but the chance to fail is higher with a low skill merc.

In the past the skill check result was calculated with:

MadeItBy = Chance - random( 100 )

which produced very unreliable results even for high skill mercs. A high skill merc could have a chance of over 80 and still fail regularly. Long time ago I change that to:

MadeItBy = Chance - random( 115 - Chance / 3 )

This makes it harder for extremely low skilled mercs to pass the test but it also makes it easier for high skill mercs and allows them to produce reliable results.

For disarming explosives the highest importance lies in explosives skill, than dexterity followed by mechanical, experience and wisdom. The disarm penalty applies to everyone unless he can counter it with the demolition trait bonus.
Training wisdom with TNT is dangerous and not advised. When it blows up you may be wiser but you may also be dead. ;)

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340730 is a reply to message #340728]

Sun, 26 April 2015 00:14

edmortimer is currently offline

Messages:1533
Registered:January 2015
Location: Home Free

Quote:

For disarming explosives the highest importance lies in explosives skill, than dexterity followed by mechanical, experience and wisdom. The disarm penalty applies to everyone unless he can counter it with the demolition trait bonus.
Training wisdom with TNT is dangerous and not advised. When it blows up you may be wiser but you may also be dead. ;)

LOL Gotcha! Thanks for the details!

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Sergeant Major

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340733 is a reply to message #340730]

Sun, 26 April 2015 04:21

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Thanks SS!

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340734 is a reply to message #340728]

Sun, 26 April 2015 04:36

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

silversurfer wrote on Sat, 25 April 2015 21:09

Training wisdom with TNT is dangerous and not advised. When it blows up you may be wiser but you may also be dead. ;)

What is the best way to train WIS please?

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Sergeant 1st Class

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340740 is a reply to message #340734]

Sun, 26 April 2015 10:35

Messages:2787
Registered:May 2009

Training others including militia increases wisdom a little. Detecting mines in enemy mine fields also increases wisdom.

Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant

Re: Disarming TNT[message #340774 is a reply to message #340740]

Tue, 28 April 2015 16:53

fightcancer is currently offline

Messages:213
Registered:February 2005
Location: USA

Got it. Thanks!

Is there any way to disarm TNT remotely? I was thinking it would be a safer bet that way since some of my mercs can't disarm it directly on the TNT itself. Thanks!

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Sergeant 1st Class

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