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Starting Cash?[message #361118]

Fri, 04 September 2020 18:48

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

In the old times (years ago) there were some INI entries about starting cash I'm not finding in the latest build (8796)
Specifically:

STARTING_CASH_NOVICE = ...
STARTING_CASH_EXPERIENCED = ...
STARTING_CASH_EXPERT = ...
STARTING_CASH_INSANE = ...

Where did those settings go?

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361119 is a reply to message #361118]

Fri, 04 September 2020 18:57

Deleted.

Messages:2657
Registered:December 2012
Location: Russian Federation

Check DifficultySettings.xml

Left this community.

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Lieutenant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361120 is a reply to message #361118]

Fri, 04 September 2020 18:58

Asdow

Messages:143
Registered:August 2010

You can find them in DifficultySettings.xml in Data-1.13/TableData

Edit: wizarded by seven

[Updated on: Fri, 04 September 2020 18:58]

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Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361124 is a reply to message #361120]

Sat, 05 September 2020 17:51

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

Thanks guys!

I should had guessed it might be in there.
Although this creates some inconsistency: Some difficulty-related settings are (still) in the Option.ini, some have migrated to that .XML file. Are all settings going to eventually end up in .XML files?
(Personally I don't care, as long as they are documented.)

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361131 is a reply to message #361124]

Sun, 06 September 2020 03:33

SinMachina

Messages:48
Registered:August 2020

What difficulty specific settings are still in Options? Do you have any suggestions for what should be where & why.

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Corporal

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361135 is a reply to message #361131]

Sun, 06 September 2020 16:37

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

SinMachina wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 02:33

What difficulty specific settings are still in Options?

Well, one could debate on what is "difficulty-specific" or not, but IMHO at least things like mine income or the different militia cost settings directly affect the game difficulty: Less expenses = more money = capacity to hire more/better mercs and buy more/better equipment.
And there is even a whole section in the Options.INI called "Tactical Difficulty Settings"...

I would say, if it affects the difficulty of playing the game (interface settings like additional information for instance) leave it in the general section (Options.INI), if it affects the gameplay difficulty (changes the resources and forces inside the game) put it in "DifficultySettings.xml".
And, most importantly, write a comment in Options.INI saying where to look for the other settings which might interest a player! I agree "DifficultySettings.xml" is very explicitly named, but I still did miss it, simply because there is a lot of files in /TableData and I didn't know what I was looking for.

If we are to live without the XML Editor I would suggest to put all the settings files a simple player is likely to want to edit into a special, more obvious place, like /Data-1.13/GameSettings or some such. I understand you guys are used to the way it is, but even me, who's been playing JA2-1.13 for 15 years and just missed the recent changes, tend to be lost (as my many questions tend to show).
I don't dare imagine what will happen to somebody who never ever played JA2-1.13 before. He will be utterly lost and miss many if not most of the game's new cool features.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361137 is a reply to message #361135]

Sun, 06 September 2020 16:55

Asdow

Messages:143
Registered:August 2010

https://github.com/aimnas/1.13_starter_documentation

There's this WIP document that mentions some of the stuff, and any additions to it you feel would be helpful to a newcomer are welcome!

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Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361139 is a reply to message #361137]

Sun, 06 September 2020 17:38

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 15:55

https://github.com/aimnas/1.13_starter_documentation

There's this WIP document that mentions some of the stuff, and any additions to it you feel would be helpful to a newcomer are welcome!

Yes, I've been pointed to that page. As I said, I know about Top Secret government documents easier to find... big grin

Anyway, it's about the step after what this document explains: The one after you have downloaded and installed the game, a step which is totally (or almost) undocumented. (AFAIK, but that's the point - I should K)

I myself have the advantage of having been already playing and modding JA2-1.13 for 15+ years, so I know the basics, I just missed the latest changes. (And yet I'm unable to start a simple game... See here)

The big, huge advantage of JA2-1.13 is the possibility of customizing your game, and thus never play the same game twice. Also the possibility to mod it, making it an "Advanced Turn-Based Tactical Game Engine".

Those two aspects require some additional information, on top of which is a list of all the relevant user-editable files and what they each do. I've looked into the XML files, some seem to be empty placeholders ("FaceGear.xml"), on others the information is cryptic (what is "Vehicles.xml" good for???).

There are some logical inconsistencies in naming which require some explanation: For instance, if I see a file named "Vehicles.xml", I expect this to be the file where you define vehicles, and in which I could add/create a new vehicle (assuming I have the graphics for it), or change the specs of the existing ones. Quite clearly "Vehicles.xml" is something different.
My point is there needs to be a list of all text-based files (INI and XML), with a short explanation of what they do and what information they contain.
So, imagine somebody wants to make a small radio playing music, helping his mercs to work faster (reducing repair and training times by a tiny amount, but lowering combat preparedness). One look at that list should tell him which files he would need to edit to create that new item.

(And BTW this list should be in the game install /Docs folder, not on some here-today, gone-tomorrow web server. JA2-1.13 has been longer around than the average contributor (check my "registered" date), and Internet is short-lived. The only information you'll sure to still have in 15 years is the one inside the file you downloaded back then. The hip communication means of the day will be long dead and forgotten, taking with them all the information they contained.)

[Updated on: Sun, 06 September 2020 17:49]

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361140 is a reply to message #361139]

Sun, 06 September 2020 17:59

Asdow

Messages:143
Registered:August 2010

That is a really tall order since JA has had 2 decades of modding of varying quality and documentation level. I agree, it would be great to have good documentation of things but the issue is, as always, who's gonna do it? Nowadays there aren't that many people involved in working on 1.13. For example, recently there's been mostly just flugente, seven, Wanne, silversurfer and occasionally me who've touched the source code. We are sorely lacking in people willing to work on JA and updating documentation is far from being fun use of spare time. I don't begrudge the few modders we have to devote their time to doing something they find more enjoyable.

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Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361146 is a reply to message #361140]

Sun, 06 September 2020 19:35

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 16:59

That is a really tall order

Why, I'm pretty sure the devs and even some advanced modders can tell what each INI/XML file is used for. Also I don't ask for developer-grade extended information, just a basic heads-up; Here is an example of what I would see:

Items.xml: Contains the list of all in-game items' basic characteristics like weight, price, effect on environment and/or merc. Specific effects of specific types of items are in the type-specific files like Weapons.xml, ???.xml, ???.xml. All possible flags of Items.xml are listed in a dummy item in the beginning.

Weapons.xml: Contains all characteristics specific to "weapon" type items. All possible flags of Weapons.xml are listed in a dummy item in the beginning. Tied to Items.xml (which contains all weapons basic characteristics) by "uiIndex" and "szWeaponName" (I guess?).

(and so on)

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 16:59

who's gonna do it?

Well, as I said above, it's most likely half an hour of work.

I would do it, except I have no clue what half of those files are good for, and the time somebody explains it to me he could as well write the file himself.

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 16:59

We are sorely lacking in people willing to work on JA

I'm willing to help, not with code since I'm no developer, but I definitely can help (re-)write and update documentation.
But for this to happen I need to be up to speed myself. I could write a book on 3356 (well, I've been hacking it for 10 years), but as you saw I can't even get 8796 to run...

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361148 is a reply to message #361146]

Sun, 06 September 2020 20:03

Asdow

Messages:143
Registered:August 2010

I'm sure we can get you to run 8796 rev. Seeing as you're intent on porting the old mod to current revision, I foresee you gaining that indepth knowledge of various ini and xml files. big grin

It would not be a bad idea to jot down/document things as you go if you are willing to help out on the documentation part.

I feel like you're underestimating the effort needed though, because another part of that documentation is that it needs to be kept up to date, otherwise it quickly becomes more trouble than its worth. So, it's not *just* writing it once and being done with it, but changing it as new features are added and/or existing ones are modified. I'm not saying it's a bad idea, good documentation would make things a lot easier for modders, just that it's more than done once and forget kind of deal.

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Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361151 is a reply to message #361148]

Mon, 07 September 2020 00:06

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 19:03

I'm sure we can get you to run 8796 rev.

Yeah, I managed, see there.

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 19:03

Seeing as you're intent on porting the old mod to current revision, I foresee you gaining that indepth knowledge of various ini and xml files.

True, but it's an egg-chicken problem: That knowledge has to come from somewhere, and that "somewhere" is the few persons who know what's what.

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 19:03

I feel like you're underestimating the effort needed though, because another part of that documentation is that it needs to be kept up to date

I'm no dev, but I've supervised a team of devs in the past. I definitely do know they absolutely hate writing documentation, and they are rather bad at it too, because they tend to list features from a dev's point of view, as opposed to what one would need, the instructions on how to use the program to do something.
My point is I do definitely expect all JA2-1.13 devs to come yelling "No! We won't write no documentation!"... cheeky

Problem is, you need a minimum of documentation, else all your hard work is for naught because nobody knows how to enjoy it...

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 19:03

changing it as new features are added and/or existing ones are modified.

Baby steps. Let's already chart the monument and its many doors and rooms: The INI/XML list is something which takes little time to make, and just as little to keep up to date...

Asdow wrote on Sun, 06 September 2020 19:03

good documentation would make things a lot easier for modders

For everyone.
Because there is little point in having lots of cool features if nobody knows how to use them, is there.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361154 is a reply to message #361151]

Mon, 07 September 2020 16:12

SinMachina

Messages:48
Registered:August 2020

Short in, short out:

I'm KIND of working on the first baby step of this currently. My current project is reformatting MercProfiles.XML to be more easily read, while commenting out what each value is referenced to.

Example:

<bNewSkillTrait1	>	18	</bNewSkillTrait1	>	<!--	Teaching	!-->
<bBuddy1	>	37	</bBuddy1	>	<!--	Wolf	!-->
<bRace	>	0	</bRace	>	<!--	White	!-->
<bNationality	>	0	</bNationality	>	<!--	American	!-->
<bAppearance	>	4	</bAppearance	>	<!--	Babe	!-->
<bAppearanceCareLevel	>	0	</bAppearanceCareLevel	>	<!--	None	!-->

For example for Fox. It doesn't transcribe well on the forum, but when done, the new file will be fully documented for easier reference for what means what.

I'm about half way done with MercProfiles, [there are some inconsistencies that need to be cleaned up], but after that I think maybe writing a .doc explaining how all the look up tables are referenced and where.

Example:

AmmoStrings.XML it what defines the caliber of ammo, but that is only referenced from Weapons.XML

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Corporal

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361155 is a reply to message #361154]

Mon, 07 September 2020 16:59

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

SinMachina wrote on Mon, 07 September 2020 15:12

MercProfiles.XML [...] commenting out what each value is referenced to.

Having spent several hours editing (and then re-editing) that file, I definitely appreciate the effort! thumbs up

Note the MercProfiles.xml has at least a full explanation in the beginning.
Some other files have none, like the 3 "Attachment" XML files (I was unable to understand what each of them does, and how to create a simple attachment), and others, while clearly commented, are nevertheless totally abstruse (like Vehicles.xml - What the blazes is it encoding?).

I think each XML file should start with a short introduction, stating what it encodes and its dependencies. Much like you plan to do.

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Master Sergeant

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361156 is a reply to message #361155]

Mon, 07 September 2020 18:06

SinMachina

Messages:48
Registered:August 2020

Vehicle is actually very straight forward and well documented. Where I assume you are confused is that so many of the entries, particular at the beginning are 'none' items. Those are required for the game to not freak out, because the vehicles id is referenced to MercProfiles, so the uID needs to be the same. The base 1.13 vehicles, such as the jeep, el dorado, helicopter and ice cream truck are there, but further down.

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Corporal

Re: Starting Cash?[message #361158 is a reply to message #361156]

Tue, 08 September 2020 00:26

Kurt

Messages:420
Registered:March 2004

SinMachina wrote on Mon, 07 September 2020 17:06

The base 1.13 vehicles, such as the jeep, el dorado, helicopter and ice cream truck are there, but further down.

Indeed, after 159 empty entries...

Thanks, I did look further down, but not that far...

So, if I change the Hummer's <SeatingCapacities> from 6 to 10, I can cram my 10-person squad in there? Or are there other limiting factors? I see mention of specific seats and stuff, but since I haven't yet found any vehicle in 8796, I don't know what that means.

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Master Sergeant