Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?
| Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364683]
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Mon, 30 May 2022 15:33 
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 SpeedyMo |
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Messages:4
Registered:May 2022 |
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First of all, a huge thank you to everyone involved in v1.13 mod.
You absolutely made my days brighter during pandemic.
I had a wild ride since an LGR tweet of the Big Box JA2 sent me back the memory lane. First thing i discovered was the Wildfire Mod which i was totally unaware of and dug the hell out of for 2 month or so in full savescum fashion. Trying iron man at some point however showed that this was a much too steep learning curve in wildfire. The enemy placement is just evil in some parts.
Next was the vanilla JA2 gold which i found much easier to master but obviously the much lower detail in gameplay left much to wish for compared to Wildfire. Which was the point when i finally started lurking here and become aware of all your fine Mods.
New chance to hit, special forces with vehicles, mobile militia, all those settings via xml. Feels like its all i ever dreamed of without knowing.
Even grinded down some scummed insane difficulty games which took weeks in real time. Before going full expert iron man.
That being said, i appreciate both styles of the game, iron man for its planning, cautiousness and bitter sweet losses aspects. Save-scumming for the perfection in execution, recklessness and sheer impossible tactics and moves you can achieve when abusing foreknowledge.
General consensus when reading here seems to be "You have not really achieved anything when it did not happen in iron man". (Pardon me when i am simplifying things) And i concur, this is true for a regular game. The difficulty levels of save scumming a regular game and achieving that win in iron man require a magnitude different skill levels. The extensive XML settings however, do make a different approach possible imo. There are possible settings that are obviously hugely over powered in a regular game, like drop-all, multiple IMPs and recruit-all-rebels early. You can obviously tune a regular-game to be easier using these OP settings. But thinking speedrun, how about enabling all OP settings and try to beat the game as fast as possible? Which includes the skill to identify OP settings at all and tune and combine those into speedrun advantages.
There are speedruns for wildfire and vanilla JAs, which all exploit glitches to some extend and are mostly measured in realtime. But do i figure correctly that all of those glitches have been ironed out in v1.13? And until new glitches are found, moving a squad on shortest path to meduna, fight the tanks using the laws from the secret facility, thus fighting your way through meduna and kill deidranna in the palace/shelter is the minimum needed to be done to beat v1.13 currently?
I did some attempts with the first notable coming down to 5 days. Wasting much time with doing regular-game stuff like getting skyrider, waiting for bobby delivery, getting conrad from alma, freeing tixa, visiting estoni with shank and recruiting a huge staff.
[Missing screenshot 1]
Yesterday i finished a 2 in-game days (33 hours) attempt with 4 IMPs + Grizzley + 4 rebels, making their way directly to cambria, wasting some time in the hospital and to clean weapons. Then going straight down to N7 for the laws.
[Missing screenshot 2]
Its huge fun. Even tho drop-all supplies you with plenty of gear. Cleaning and repairing has a huge impact on final time. Part of the fun is to utilize whatever the RNG bestows on to you to best extend. The game progression is hilarious. G3A3 on on day one from MoM, AWM found in the gardens only to be ever used to shoot through the palace gate. P90s early but only one mag ammunition for loong time. Robots become a huge pita if you are low on 9x21mm ammo. The character progression is very slow compared to the item progression. Dimitri still was lvl 2, when lvl4 Ira killed deidranna.
[Missing screenshot 3]
Obviously, when it comes to rating a speedrun, the amount of save-scumms should be taken into consideration. Is there a way to reliably count them? Are "game saved" messages stored in the log/savegame files?
[Wanted to attach savegames and screenshots. But no links allowed until i posted 5 messages]
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Civilian
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| Re: Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364835 is a reply to message #364683]
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Sat, 27 August 2022 14:58 
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| Colt .45 Peacemaker |
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Messages:430
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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Do you speedrun your eating, or sleeping or having sex ? I doubt it. We try to enjoy, so we take our time. Hell, we don't even speedrun when we go jogging cause we'll collapse in a matter of minutes. How do you speedrun a war ??? and why would you want to do that for ? to prove something ? As it says in the game manual, you want to keep your team alive because they improve through experience and training.
EXPERIENCE LEVEL: is the most important mercenary trait. It reflects the sum of their abilities: their years in A.I.M., the amount of combat they've seen, and how knowledgeable theyare in the field.
As mercenaries gain in experience class, they also gain certain benefits:
- Their ability to detect boobytraps and ambushes improves.
- They become sneakier and their stealth increases.
- They are able to focus their sights on an enemy target more quickly and accurately.
- They become more effective at interrupting enemies
(and avoiding being interrupted themselves.)
- Their overall proficiency in field operations increases.
- Their salary increases (mind you, it's a benefit to them.)
Those things take time and aside their rising salary, everything else is a benefit to both you, the commander, and to them, for survivability. For all those reasons, as the manual says : You'd want to keep them alive for the long run. And speedrunning is not the way to fight a war. You are outgunned, outnumbered and your soldiers lack experience and ability. Plus there is no fun to finish the game in 17 game days as my old roomate did, while complaining all the time that he's getting his ass kicked badly. He managed to reach Meduna with Uzi's, avoiding tanks, skipping sectors,etc. Where's the joy in that ? And of course he never played JA2 ever again. All he wanted to do was to prove to himself that he could do it in record time. I was in a cast at the time, 3 and a half months off works, had to relearn how to walk again. It would take me around 155 game days to kill Deidranna and it was a lot of fun. Kept me from being bored and made me smile.
[Updated on: Sat, 27 August 2022 14:59]
Nipson anomimata mi monan opsinReport message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364843 is a reply to message #364835]
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Mon, 29 August 2022 19:52
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| SpeedyMo |
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Messages:4
Registered:May 2022 |
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Do you always assume from your preferences what must be best for everyone? Looks very much like. I already had fun beating the game in all conceivable ways now.
And sorry, but it is strikingly clear that you either did not read or understand what i wrote above. Else you would not try to explain the basics of "intended" gameplay after i told to have played and enjoyed the game for years now.
And yes. It was and still is fun that way from time to time. And i don't want to take that from you. No fear.
But even from storyline aspect, the single goal to end the game is to kill the queen after all.
I bet the NPCs in my recent games where really happy to be freed within 23hours after we landed. Not getting slowly massacred over 155days.
But i should not argue with RPG storyline. Since, yes, you are right. I am over with it after all those regular play through games.
Now i have fun ignoring the storyline and play the game in a different way, purely by enjoying its mechanics. When doing speed chess, you really do not worry about the pawns backstory too much. And as pointed out above, the 1.13 mod invites for alternate gameplay. Intended or not.
The newly added features are in some instances overpowered to an extend that i'd laugh if someone, for instance switches on "Recruit rebels early" and then claim to have beaten the game following the story line.
And please deal with it, i made above post not to brag. Else i would have discarded it when i noticed i will not be able to upload or even link to proofing savefiles and screenshots to back up my claims.
Really don't care if you find it impressive that i went sub one-day now.
I was looking for people that enjoy the game in the same specific way i do, to exchange ideas how to grind down even faster times.
Looks like this is the wrong place to do so. And i am totally fine with that. Tbh, what i read here while lurking was not always reflecting a healthy community spirit.
Now you being the first person in 50years on this planet to tell my how i am supposed to play a game and literally how to have fun. Priceless.
Its a real pity that developers hard work gets presented in such a light. Thanks anyway devs, from a fellow dev. Great work you do.
Wish you all that you get that community thing in order at some point. Bye and stay safe.
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Civilian
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| Re: Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364849 is a reply to message #364848]
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Wed, 31 August 2022 16:12
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| Colt .45 Peacemaker |
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Messages:430
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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I am almost 60 years old and i have worked very hard in my life. Especially in the american kitchens, 12 hour days with hardly 5 minutes to go for a smoke or to use the bathroom. For almost 30 years. Got 5 hernias, metals in my leg and 3 missing fingers. Now i see all the youngsters in games like World of Warcraft, always in a hurry, don't even say "thanks". I see them texting in the bus or the cafeteria, like their life depends on it. I remember us going to the cafeteria and we talked, joked, laughed, talked about this and that, all in person. Even in games like WoW and STar Wars Galaxies and other mmo's, players were very helpful and friendly. Along with cellphones, smartphones and texting, came isolation and rush. I don't get the point of speedrunning, looks like a waste of the money when you buy a game. If speedrunning is a thing, then i hope to die soon. The world is going to hell in a handbasket.
And here comes someone saying "Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?". Never heard anyone speedrunning JA games, except one video on Youtube, Someone took Magic, went to Cambria university to pick up 2 LAW's in dubious condition, made it to Meduna, blew up the outer and inner wall and killed Deidranna. That's it, just one case of speedrunning. When i pay 50 dollars to buy a game, i want to take my time with it and enjoy it, especially after spending 30+ years speedrunning in my jobs. If that's how some people like to play, fine, it's their game. But when i hear things like the title of this thread, it makes no sense. Is it a thing ALREADY ? Since when, never heard of it. Anyway, the guy is too volatile for his own good. I just pointed out the meaning of the game and he got upset.
[Updated on: Wed, 31 August 2022 16:30]
Nipson anomimata mi monan opsinReport message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364856 is a reply to message #364855]
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Thu, 01 September 2022 07:15
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| Colt .45 Peacemaker |
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Messages:430
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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Good morning
The discord account is in my old pc i think. I tried to access it on my new pc, or maybe i tried to make an account, without remembering that i already have an account. I thought it was in this pc, the new one, well, 2 years old or so. Now i need to delete that account on the old pc and make a new one on both pc's ? I am still using the older one for older games, such as Fallout 3, New Vegas, Robin Hood, the older Splinter Cells, The 3 Mass Effect games, etc.
Nipson anomimata mi monan opsinReport message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364859 is a reply to message #364845]
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Sat, 03 September 2022 03:03
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| SpeedyMo |
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Messages:4
Registered:May 2022 |
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Shanga wrote on Tue, 30 August 2022 15:37It's the baptism of fire. 
Hmmm, yeah, i can take it. But being voluntary community manager in two projects, let me tell you, its not the norm. And textual communication is more complicated than we think most of the times. Especially among "foreigners", its usually taken very direct. Be a little more obviously welcoming to new users not used to the tone in a forum. Its about an introduction and everyone speaking to a newbee first is an ambassador to the forum.
Anyway, really no harm done on my side.
But just as it seems to be the norm here to friendly roast each other. Where i am usually involved its about honest critique culture. Sorry if that went a little wrong.
From lurking here, i already learned you all are on the RPG side of the game and i respect that.
Frankly, i grew out of it by necessity.
I bought the big box in 1999 and played vanilla Ja2 casually for some month without ever advancing over drassen and san mona  Nearly 20 years later now, some virus forced my food business into hybernation. And i literally played full time in 2020 and 2021.
From regulary driving shank and florent to lvl 10, all team combinations i found cool, a three month long insane iron man, you name it. All my games where 100% rpg quest fulfilled. It was extreme fun. Thank you again for this grand 1.13 mod to everyone involved.
Speedrunning actually solved a problem for me. I was so heavily addicted during 2021, i neglected family and friends. While i had a game going (realtime usually a week or two each) i had not much else in mind than to finish it.
Add pandemic depression, my wife was kinda worried about me. Took a month hiatus over xmas and promised her to limit gaming to times where she was away. Now my business revived additionally, making free time precious again.
Had i continued my prior play style, but in limited hours. It would have taken month to finish games and i just got bored in the first week already. It took more overhead to get back into a game by trying to remember what all happened and what i had planned to do than actual play in that hour or two i had.
At some point it hit me and i realized, if i just do the exact opposite play style, it would likely take much less "time" to finish a game. Which would then allow me to not constantly have games going and have the need to go back to it. But finish a game in just 4 or 5 daily evening sessions over a week. And be fine for some days until The need to start another game arises. I found my fix for the Ja2 RPG drug so to say.
@Gopas the magic/bazooka speedrun and another one on youtube was possible due to glitches and/or blatant developer oversights. In the speedrunning world, this counts as an "Any percent" run. Where it is the goal to break a game on a technical basis. Its like a bug hunt. The winning times are not that much important in any% runs. Its about finding the weirdest glitches and brag with those.
1.13 afaics has ironed out all of the (previously) know major glitches. The ones that remain, like training mercs by excessive mine plant/defuse and such do not have an influence on the speed you can finish the game. And they are imo justified by the game mechanics. Its just the question if you got 30 minutes of your life to waste to get dimitri or shank to 99 explosive skill.
Whats left without spending much time on code reading or even create bots for tool assisted glitch hunt, are 100% and low% speedruns.
The 100% is what you all laugh about. And its not what i do. It means to complete the game as fast as possible, while achieving all possible goals. Which is sure doable, but is extremely tedious and stressful in Ja2.
Low% however has the goal to complete as few goals as possible. Also note, i measure in game speed. Which is much less stressful than measuring real time.
The fun now obviously is to optimize the run and see what is not necessary to do or which route is a tad faster. Plus grinding down lucky RNG.
Re saved games. That was an idea when i had a short phase believing that maybe more people might be speedrunning already  And reliably counting saved games and weigh them into results would sure make up for better competition.
I am fine with just playing and grinding. No real need for that feature just for me.
Oh, and thanks mods for being wiser than me and forseeing the guy will likely stay and we will not delete the account directly on first request.
I'll just stay and you all can refer other speedrun victims to my therapy sessions.
Cheers all!
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Civilian
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| Re: Is speed running v1.13 already a thing?[message #364865 is a reply to message #364859]
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Mon, 05 September 2022 17:09
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| Colt .45 Peacemaker |
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Messages:430
Registered:June 2016
Location: Norway |
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Hey there SpeedyMo
Yeah, i meant not to offend you, more along the lines of being somewhere between "joking and serious", i believe the native english speakers are calling it : being jokingly serious, or so . Anyway, if you read my other post in that thread, i am just about crippled from working like a horse for many years. Open to Close. Pizza maker/cook. So, when i play games now, i really don't want to rush through them, i like to explore every possibility.
With that being said, the JA games were made more with "take your time" philosophy in mind. Which is why i quoted parts of the manual. I mean, there's a lot of micromanagement, quests, trying to keep your team alive as they become better,etc. The kind of game that keeps me interested. Along these lines, i am trying my hand on Ghost Recon games, Wildlands and Breakpoint. I am a PvE player, i avoid multiplayer because the veterans of the game are going too fast and despite the fact that we have voice chat, they don't even bother to tell you what the plan is. So, that's that, i play PvE, with my 3 NPC followers/soldiers and it's a blast 
I've seen some speedruns on Youtube, one was the 3rd Thief game, he played in 3rd person view and he didn't bother knocking guards out, that's ok, i try to do the same in the same game. Another one was the first Splinter Cell, that guy hacked the game itself, finished the whole game in one hour. Sadly, i can't find that speedrun anymore. Some games can be fun speedrunning because of the way they are made, mostly 1st/3rd person games in real time. I can enjoy a speedrun video but it's not really my cup of tea. However, i am not trying to force people to play my way, everyone's free to do as they like. No harm done here either and sorry for the misunderstanding.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 September 2022 17:17]
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Master Sergeant
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