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| 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58738]
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Sun, 17 February 2002 03:06 
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 Skott Karlsson |
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Messages:79
Registered:May 2001
Location: Oldsmar, FL. USA |
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Well, folks. I finished this mod finally. I started back in the first week of October of 2001 and finished the mod last Saturday. Just now getting around to doing the review. Been spending the week playing Return To Castle Wolfenstein. Anyway..on with the review.
I downloaded and loaded JA2 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard over the JA2/DL mod to get that paricular flavor. I should add there are two versions of this mod. The first which is tamer and this one. I chose this one. Big mistake.
Basically all the mercs, with the exception of your IMP, comes with pistols from the start. Thats hard enough but the extra ammo they carry doesnt match their weapon. Highly unrealistic. This makes for some difficult game play right from the git go. To add to the difficulty each sector has a minimum of 32 enemy soldiers. Some have more.
All the goodies were taken out of this mod. Few good weapons are found till well into the latter half of the game and you kill enough baddies that drop good stuff. All the extra money and weapon caches are missing as well.
The enemies are tough. Most sectors had elites comprising of half the manpower. Even the redshirts seemed to shoot better and farther than my mercs. Even when I matched them gun for gun and armor for armo my mercs took more damage and gave less. The sectors where you had gunrunners also had at least 32 enemy soldiers. Some sectors had way more than 32 enemy soldiers. I ran into some that had 42, 54, and 59 enemies. The most I ran into at any one time was a sector that had 74 enemy soldiers. I spent a 8 hour day trying to clear that sector.
TO make matters even worse the load and reload times are very long. I tested this on two computers. One a P3 850MHz processor and 512mb of RAM and the other a P3 500MHz processor with 128mb RAM. Game reloads took 55-57 seconds for both machines so doesnt seem to matter what power your pc has, it will have slow reload times. And you have to save and reload this game alot. You wont get through it unless you contantly save. The save and reload was the only cheat I used in this game. I should also mention I didnt use many vehicles to get around in.
My mercs were constantly outclassed and outgunned during this whole mod. If it wasnt for the save and reload method I would have went through the entire AIM inventory at least a dozen times. My mercs were killed so often. This mod is that hard.
At game's end I had a total of 6,062 enemies dead. Thats counting soldiers, gunrunners, and Kingpin's men. Nearly every merc I had was maxed out in marksmanship of 100.
I found this mod extremely fustrating. In fact this mod is a perfect example of hot NOT to make a game mod too hard. There was so many times I walked away in fustration due to the near invincibility of the enemy. The mod should have been called Very Fustrating. Very Hard doesnt even begin to describe this mod.
If the modder had just taken and added the extra men to each sector and left everything else alone then this mod would have been really good. Unfortunately he got carried away in the design and just made it too hard to be enjoyable. And thats whats really bad. Upon complettion I wasnt thrilled. I was fustrated and angry I wasted so much time on it. Expect to play this mod a very long time if you dare to try it.
I have gone back and looked through the archives to try and find anyone who has completed this mod. I even posted a couple times asking. No one seems to have finished this mod. Probably gave up out of fustration.
I cannot in good conscious reccomend this mod to anyone. Even the hard core JA player will find this mod a fustrating experience in futility. On a point scale of 1 star (*) to 5 stars (*****). One being the lowest and five being the highest, I give 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard mod 1 star (*) and this warning to all JA players. Player beware!
~Skott~
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Corporal
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| Re: 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58741]
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Sun, 10 March 2002 03:00 
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| Skott Karlsson |
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Messages:79
Registered:May 2001
Location: Oldsmar, FL. USA |
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8000+ Enemies was made by Weapon x. Sierra Gordo was made by Becoming X. Totally two different people. Also I'd like to point out when I review a game or mod, as in this case, I just review the mod. I dont review the person who made it. The person who made the mod is probably a really nice guy. So, I'm not going to criticize him, just his particular work I'am reviewing. Now having said that I will also add that because he made one mod I didnt like doesnt mean every mod he makes is bad. For anyone to say all mods made by so and so is bad is just plain irresponsible IMHO.
As for my problems with Sierra Gordo the downloading problem is most likely something I'm not doing right. I asked a question to see if anyone else had the same problem. To date I havent downloaded the mod. I stopped and started making UB maps instead because my interests switched. Perhaps I'll get back to the Sirra Gordo campaign at another time. Just not right now.
I try and be as fair as possible with people. I do my best to show others respect as I would like them to show me. We're all adults here. At least I think we are. JA is a common subject we all share. I'm not the best JA player, nor do I think I'm the worst. Just average. When I post I try to make my posts positive, thought provoking, and productive. I consider being able to post here a priveldge and treat it as such. I enjoy reading this baord and sharing ideas and game techniques with others who also come here. Hopefully others feel the same towards me.
Okay, enough talk for now. I'm sure I bored y'all enough as is. 
~Skott~
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Corporal
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| Re: 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58744]
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Mon, 11 March 2002 08:43
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| Snake |
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Messages:47
Registered:February 2000
Location: PA, USA |
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You can't truly compare WeaponX's 8000+ to any other mod for JA. As I recall he had a real thing going for making JA hard. He liked it that way. And yes, this savegame was made a long long time ago, more as an experimental thing. They don't say very hard without reason.
Honestly I don't think he intended for people to play through to the bitter end, although it was possible. A true modification to JA2 it is not. It's a fun alternative to the game, kind of a 'what if' situation.
So I don't think it's fair to really rate this savegame pack using the same logic and perspective you might use while playing a true campaign. If you ever want to just fire up JA2 and go ballistic, this is definately an amusing toy.
I'm impressed you stuck with it so long and actually finished it! Congrats! I don't think I got any further than Cambria before shaking my head, laughing and quitting. If you go in expecting loads of bullets flying, mercs dropping dead and everyone ducking for cover, you'll have a good time. Take it too seriously though and I agree it's frustrating and an excercise in self-control.
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Corporal
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| Re: 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58747]
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Tue, 02 April 2002 00:27
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| Conradwang |
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Messages:3
Registered:November 2001
Location: Taiwan |
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Quote:Originally posted by Skott Karlsson:
8000+ Enemies was made by Weapon x. Sierra Gordo was made by Becoming X. Totally two different people. Also I'd like to point out when I review a game or mod, as in this case, I just review the mod. I dont review the person who made it. The person who made the mod is probably a really nice guy. ................
~Skott~
Thks, LINX, I was so embarrassssed at Skott's response, you are right, they are two dirrerent X. And .... I really didn't mean BAD when posted the first artical(I actually mean it could be very time consuming and exhausted, too. At that moment I didnot realize they are made by different arthur) .
@Skott, I really didn't mean that, are you still intrested to play SG ?? It is really a good MOD worth to try.... If you still can't get that download finished, contact me by e-mail(I should have register it in Bearpit)
I can cut and mail it by ATTACHMENT to you.
[ 01 April 2002: Message edited by: DGNKT ]
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Civilian
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| Re: 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58755]
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Thu, 04 July 2002 12:25
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| adamsun |
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Messages:175
Registered:January 2002
Location: MA, USA |
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It is this topic got me to play "8000+ Even harder' mode (on JA2DL). Thanks for this.
I played it solo and managed to finish it without be wounded (with a lot of save-game and reload-game).
Therefore, it is safe to say this mode is difficult but not impossible.
My survive tips:
1. Attack during the night(from day 1), and rest/defend on some roof during the day
2. Quick-save game at the beginning of every turn, never save game at the end of a turn.
3. It is not mandatory to kill one enemy in a turn or take one sector with one battle.
Sometimes, to avoid to be wounded, I repeated "shoot/run-away' a few turns to kill one enemy soldier;
or go in one sector, kill a few soldiers, withdraw from that sector(when it is too hot), then go back again.
4. If enemy soldiers are highly alert at one direction, try to approach them from other directions.
Grenade may be helpful too.
5. Use tree, window, roof, house corner, rock… for protection.
Grass can not stop bullet but it can make it difficult for enemy to spot merc.
6. Avoid to shoot at a fixed position for a long time.
7. Use X-ray detector to find isolated soldiers and attack them first, then use X-ray to find crowded soldiers
and use 20mm napalm/grenade to soften them. This will kill a few of them, and wound many more.
It could be too effective, once I used one 20mm napalm to end one sector when the last 15 soldiers formed a very tight group,
(A few big/loud secondary explosions contributed to this).
To save battery, save game, use X-ray, reload game again.
8. Start a sector from a corner, move around the sector's borders first.
9. Important inventory: UV goggles, extended ear, G3KA4 with silencer/sniper/laser scopes/rod&spring,
camouflage kit, X-ray detector, M69with napalm.
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58762]
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Sat, 06 July 2002 16:38
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| adamsun |
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Messages:175
Registered:January 2002
Location: MA, USA |
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Thank you for your nice words, Weapon X.
Thank you for creating such wonderful modes too.
One disadvantage of solo is more outnumbered and outgunned.
But there is also advantages. The single merc will be promoted very quickly,
my merc is promoted to level 10 with 100 marksmanship in one week of intense fighting.
However, the biggest one is mobility and flexibility. When the situation is too hot,
it is much harder to withdraw a team (or impossible if some of them already run out of AP)
than a single merc. As long as the merc can wound/kill enemy and get away with it
(shoot/run-away), it is a win-win setup.
When I first play JA2 and JA2UB, I always form the mercs roughly in a line at a corner,
then fire one shot and wait for enemy to come and then shoot them one by one.
When there is no one come to the mercs, move the mercs around the sector to "search and destroy'
the rest of the enemy. The bottom line is no one get killed.
When I play solo, I have to heavily use silenced weapon, schedule all attack to night for extra
protection, and quietly approach enemy, then shoot/run repeatedly,
the #1 priority is not to kill enemy but to avoid to be wounded/killed.
It is really a guerrilla war, not an "all-out' assault. The bottom line is never get wounded.
In the future, I will try to train a two-man fighting team, it must be interesting but harder.
I will also try to use knife in the future.
I had finished Tank Attack(solo, with one light wound) before 8000+,
the scud base is the most difficult(and the best) sector I have ever played.
I guess that is one reason why I do not feel 8000+ is too hard.
I forget how many enemy soldiers there are, but the important thing is not quantity but quality.
The enemy soldiers in that sector are very hard to kill, they are very experienced,
highly alerted, the mobile ones are very aggressive and the stationary ones are well placed.
My old "shoot/run-away' trick does not work here.
I have to use three break-lights to form a lighted area before my "beachhead',
then use silenced weapons to shoot anyone who get into this area.
No enemy soldier tried (or was able) to pass the lighted area.
(One trick I used: if a group of soldiers is visible and none of them spot the merc, some of them can be
killed in one turn, kill the one far away from the merc. This way, other soldiers will be misled
and move to the died soldier and search in the wrong direction(away from the merc).
After killed those highly mobile/aggressive ones this way,
it is still needed to use break light to expose those stationary ones
or to use grenades to shock/soften them first. Otherwise
the enemy soldiers will always have the first shoot.
To get into the compound: clear the enemy outside the gate,
use mortar and LAW to destroy the tanks,
(once the location is known, the tanks are really "sit duck'.)
then crawl in from the gate to the sandbag wall
(in the middle of the gate, there is a very narrow path which is not cover by anyone.
I did not use smoke, but it may be helpful.).
Once get the sandbag, the destroyed tanks can provide some protection and room for further movements.
Like 8000+, it is difficult but not impossible,
it just demands/challenges one's wit, patience and flexibility.
Dann, if you are looking for something which is not "a piece of cake', you might try this one.
To make the game harder:
1. Put two or four soldiers at the center of a roof, prone and back to back,
make them stationary and highly alert to only one direction,
waiting for merc to climb on the roof. Only solution is mortar, I guess.
2. Put a soldier in a big, dark, windowless room, at a corner,
in the dark and highly alert at the well lighted door.
(The soldier should not be distracted by any noise from other directions.
One of my tricks is to let one merc make a lot of noise by crawling outside the wall
And at the same time let another merc quietly move into the door.)
3. Let enemy soldiers defend a very wide river, like the one in Sierra Gordo.
The mode I played, "8000+ Even Harder', also has gunrunner, 32 enemies per sector, many assassins, and some quests. But there is no "enemies in caves'. Maybe I will try your new 8000+ later, for now, I need a break, to finish some small/easy modes.
Thanks again for your wonderful modes, I really enjoy them.
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: 8000+ Enemies Saved Game:Very Hard Review[message #58763]
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Sat, 03 August 2002 13:14
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| adamsun |
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Messages:175
Registered:January 2002
Location: MA, USA |
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First thing first, if my posts have anything offensive or bad taste, I'd like to apologize here.
English is the second language for me, and I tried very hard to be proper.
In fact, it took me eight hours to compose my last post.
What I want is not to show off but to share my opinion and observation here, because I get a lot of help and new ideas here.
Now my favorite topic, JA2.
I like to give some examples on
“ Quick-save game at the beginning of every turn, never save game at the end of a turn.”
Once the game is save, we can try different things, such as attack or withdrawal, two head shots or two bursts,
use silenced weapon or mortar… if we do like the result, we can reload the game and try something else.
On the other hand, save game at the end of a turn will make no room to correct any mistake made in that turn.
In some very hard sectors, it will help to make extra save(s) besides the quick save.
I am playing x-com, and find out for many K* sectors, break-light is the only way to survive.
In many cases, just wait patiently a little longer will result in the enemy soldiers walking into
the lighted area and becoming target, especially for those mobile and aggressive ones.
However, shoot-and-run does work against those on the roof because they can not leave the roof.
Another type of shoot-and-run is to move to close to the enemy on the ground(in real time mode),
then get on the roof, use all but 6 AP to shoot, then get off the roof, move around the building,
then get on the roof again…
Mortar is also effective against those on the roof, especially when there are many of them.
Following are some Chinese guerrilla/mobile warfare principles which may work in JA2, FYI only:
You fight in your way and we fight in ours; we fight when we can win and move away when we can't.
To wipe out large numbers of the enemy in many back-and-forth mobile operations.
The enemy advances, we retreat; the enemy camps, we harass; the enemy tires, we attack, the enemy retreats, we pursue.
To attack dispersed, isolated enemy forces first; attack concentrated, strong enemy forces later.
To make wiping out the enemy's effective strength one's main objective, and not to make holding or seizing a city
or place one's main objective.
(When I play JA2DL solo (for 3rd run) and 8000+, I have not trained any militia, just move around and clear all city and mine sectors first,
when some city and mine sectors are reoccupied by enemy, I will clear it during the night ASAP. Eventually, all sectors are cleared, even
there is no militia defends them.)
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Staff Sergeant
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