The Bears Pit: JA2UC Tips & Tactics » Hardcore Finish

Messages:36
Registered:April 2004

By hardcore I mean never restoring a prior save (other than becuase of a crash or major bug) - if disaster strikes you either continue and try to overcome it or start all over.

I'm a CRPG specialist - I've done every major CRPG for 20 years this way (not on my first try I assure you). JA2 I got to Meduna 3 times hardcore but never finished and am having real problems with UC - I'm not as good at games that aren't pure CRPGs.

Is there any benefit to going west instead of East - I've lost over a dozen parties in Callisto or adjoining sectors already. Partly because I'm milking UC for all it is worth and starting over if I lose any AIM merc - something I'll stop doing after a while.

Private 1st Class

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96855]

Tue, 20 April 2004 08:29

Rude Dog

Messages:467
Registered:March 2001
Location: Chasing Pussy

You are gping to be restarting this game A LOT!
Go to the subway from A9 and get the CAR 15 and then go hire RUDE DOG in B10 before you get your a** shot off entirely.

Master Sergeant

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96856]

Tue, 20 April 2004 13:18

lizard103dm

Messages:29
Registered:February 2004
Location: Mississippi

Ariana,

Check out the Ironman threads - there are a number of people doing this. Definitely adds to the tension in the game. All those restarts can be a bear, though...

You may experience problems if you take Sheraton before Calisto - it's a documented "undocumented feature" that affects the availability of the plant managers. Calisto is the first place you want to go.

Regards,

Lizard

Private 1st Class

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96857]

Tue, 20 April 2004 13:38

hamsterdance

Messages:4
Registered:November 2002

Have you tried doing this in games like Baludr's Gate and its sequel? That will be extremely difficult.

You can win ironman easily in JA2 without losing a single merc, but UC will be much harder. I'll be trying UC when I have more time.

Civilian

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96858]

Wed, 21 April 2004 14:34

Messages:36
Registered:April 2004

For now I give up. Took Callisto and adjoining areas with no casualties but the IMP was my one casualty taking the SAM site. I restored and continued. This is about my 20th party and I just don't want to plow ahead without my favorite merc.

Yes I did BG and BG2 ironman - I've done all the CRPGs that way. Strategy/squad combat games I have much more problems with.

As you know, of course, ironman in JA2 is wimpy - means you can't save during combat rather than you can't EVER save. Even for me that would be trivially easy - it is about impossible to lose a game if you can redo any combat you lose.

Private 1st Class

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96859]

Wed, 21 April 2004 17:43

Messages:114
Registered:February 2004
Location: In the heart of Transilva...

@ariana
I agree that what you try to do is a very challenging way to play UC and it's much more than just playing Ironman. After all, I would never give up to save a game in a middle of a battle: I had my share of CTD's in UC when in the middle of a battle another enemy patrol just entered that sector, but I am willing to try your approach. But maybe there is a difference between us: I have played many of the sectors in UC more than once, so I now what to expect of. Anyway, one thing I have noticed is that not always the enemies in a sector are in the spots or come from the direction they used to do in previous games/battles.
When I will try to win a game the way you proposed, I will set as a first tactical rule this one: a sector will be cleared of enemies the first time it is entered only if this CAN be achieved without important risks. In sectors other that the ones occupied by the gunrunners, the enemies will not respawn, so killing a few soldiers and policemen and than retreating will weaken that sector's defence. I know it's gonna be a very long game played this way, but it will definitely be more realistic. As for the AIM mercs hired at the start of the game, I would suggest Magic and Shadow, and I would do my IMP with the skills and stats he started with in my current game: Autoweapons and Nightops specialist, Psycho, 85 at health, agility, dexterity and strenght, 35 leadership, 81 wisdom, 74 marksmanship and 0 at explosives, mechanical and medicine. Then I would not go straight to Calisto. In the first evening I will clear A10 Atremo, then journey east, clear A11, stock up with stun grenades, then A12, where there are 3 civilians, just where those crates are, 2 of them armed with MP-5's and the other one with a CAR-15. I will sneak up north with my mercs going right at the western edge of the map, then I will sneak with them, aligned to the northern edge of the map untill I will reach the river and then I will move my mercs 2-3 squares down south, untill they see the civilians. It's time to give them a stun grenades shower, then run to them with your mercs and steal their weapons. Be sure to check the crates to, there are some gas canisters in them and an A.L.I.C.E. backpack. Those civilians are dressed like the gun runners and if they see your mercs first they will become hostile and start to fire. It is essential that this operation to be performed by night and with nightops specialists in your squad.
If you are interested I will post some more tactical insights as how the game can be won in the way you like to play it.

Sergeant

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96860]

Fri, 23 April 2004 08:17

Messages:36
Registered:April 2004

My preference is mercs with good attributes and/or wisdom that can use the early part of the game to improve. Why pay more for Magic (who IMO is overrated) and see little improvement when Spider, Wolf, Dr Q and Igor are all nice, all night ops, and can use the first part of the game to reach level 4-5 and up their skills dramatically?

My IMP is similar to yours but without psycho and with higher wisdom.

Your approach needs to be applied very carefully - as I'm sure you would. Retreating to have a banged up party spend a day exposed to DAYLIGHT attacks is rarely wise if it can be avoided. And as you know delaying the game makes the last half FAR more difficult - swarms of elites can take cities away cutting revenue drastically apart from other problems.

I've killed the gunrunners you mentioned many times with no problems - but maybe stun/steal is worth a try - killed the old fashioned way they drop ammo but not weapons. But the trip either takes a day (if I refurn to Atremo), leaves me exposed to random attacks if I rest outside of Callisto, or drags a really tired party in to Callisto if they just keep going. Not worth the detour IMO unless stealing works reliably and if I steal guns I don't have ammo for yet there is no benefit. The drop I get of .223 ammo is more useful than another gun without ammo.

All suggestions are welcome - just keep in mind I'm not exactly a rookie - having finished the first half of JA2 hardcore (my definition - never restoring a prior save at all) at least 30 times.

Private 1st Class

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96861]

Fri, 23 April 2004 18:00

Messages:114
Registered:February 2004
Location: In the heart of Transilva...

I did not considered you a rookie, but JA2 was closer to an RPG or an CRPG than UC is in terms of balance between the player's squad and the enemies. As you already noticed, the enemy forces in Calisto can be compared rather with those one encountered in Alma in the original JA2 Sheraton's main sector is a little tougher than any sectors in Calisto (apart from the air freight terminal), and from then on it's gonna be even worst. I have suggested Magic for the day time operations.
So far I restarted the game three times trying to play it without restoring to a prior save. I must admit that is more exciting this way and it keeps me more focused on the tactical consequences of every move I make.
As for the "gasrunners" in A-12, if you are careful, the stealing works reliably every time. The MP-5 is a very accurate weapon and it is a killer in the northern parts of Danubia. You have plenty of ammo for it if you loot the lockers in the police station in A-10 (it uses the same ammo type as the AGRAM) and you will come across that time of ammo in most of the sectors in the northern part of Danubia. The CAR-15 is also a very good weapon for the first days, and it's more accurate than the PPSh-41. In a game I assigned the CAR-15 and the axtra clip stealed from the "gasrunners" to Rosebud, and in less than a night, in the B-11, B-12, B-13, C-13 and D-13 sectors he raised his marksmanship from 61 to 70 and reached level 4. His hit ratio was 65%. So, just give those stun drenades (and the three gas grenades you can loot from the police station) to your mercs with marksmanship higher than 80, then move the whole squad to the northeastern edge of the map, and from than move them one at a time at the northern edge of the map to the river bank. When they all got there, move your mercs with high mrk a square or two to the south, untill they have visual contact with the "gasrunners", then let them throw the stun grenades and then the gas grenades. After a little practice I could do it every time with no casualty, and I had 2 CAR-15s and two MP-5 in my squad from day 2 (and 8 clips of ammo for the MP-5s, 4 AP and 4 HP, looted from the police station). Those weapons can really give you a serious advantage when you take Calisto.
As for the attack and retreat tactics, it is best to use it within a town borders, as it takes your squad only 5 minutes to commute between a sector and another. Be sure to hire Haywire, Razor and Ayana from MERC as soon as they are available. Ayana is very good right from the start, she's night ops and Haywire and Razor now have high marksmanship, so they can be used to replace your wounded frontline mercs when assaulting a town (or they can even be used in the assault, even at night, as now all the towns have many areas with bright light).

Sergeant

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96862]

Sat, 24 April 2004 00:59

Messages:36
Registered:April 2004

>As for the "gasrunners" in A-12, if you are careful, the stealing works reliably every time.<

I may try it my next game just for the heck of it - I gather that stealing works best against enemies that are unconscious or dying.

>You have plenty of ammo for it if you loot the lockers in the police station in A-10 (it uses the same ammo type as the AGRAM) and you will come across that time of ammo in most of the sectors in the northern part of Danubia.<

I know. Been there - done that.

>The CAR-15 is also a very good weapon for the first days<

Yes. After I have access to on-line ammo delivery services I convert it but it is great until then.

>In a game I assigned the CAR-15 and the axtra clip stealed from the "gasrunners" to Rosebud, and in less than a night, in the B-11, B-12, B-13, C-13 and D-13 sectors he raised his marksmanship from 61 to 70 and reached level 4.<

I prefer other mercs - he has poor attributes and weak night vision. I would rather improve Spider or Q or Igor or even Barry or Ice if I am slumming with them.

>then move the whole squad to the northeastern edge of the map<

I've done the encounter maybe a dozen times by now. I'm sure your way works fine for you but I come in from the west and move east and I don't think I have ever taken so much as one point of damage.

>Be sure to hire Haywire, Razor and Ayana<

Ayana is nice to have. Biff is priceless for his superior militia training skills. The others are throw-aways. Tex and Rude Dog are far better.

Private 1st Class

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96863]

Sat, 24 April 2004 01:41

Messages:114
Registered:February 2004
Location: In the heart of Transilva...

I like night ops mercs too, especially Wolf, Dr. Q and Igor, and I always hire Spider from day 1. But for a weapon's accuracy test, Rosebud with it's poor marksmanship and limited wisdom is the best tester in the game. He never rised that fast with any other weapon (it's true I never game him an MP-5).
Ooops! There is a mistake in the movement path suggested for A-12 map. I also come in from the west (A-11), so it's the northwestern edge and corner of the map. Yes, killing them is easy without taking a single point of damage, but thats not the case when you intend to steal their weapons, and that's why go to that sector for. After some stun grenades, some exposure to tear gas and a couple of punches, all of them are weak enough to let you steal their weapons. Altough sometime you will have to try it from the other side of the fallen enemy. I've'd never been able to steal from a dying enemy tough...
I don't think that Razor and Haywire are throw aways in this game, with their current stats. They can assure that your attack squad will have it's ranks full even if some of your mercs where severely injured in the previous sector. When money will not be an issue anymore, you can fire them. Anyway, it's your own choice.

Sergeant

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96864]

Sat, 24 April 2004 01:56

Di^^^

Messages:38
Registered:June 2003
Location: Grass Valley, CA

Y'all should be sure to check the pro-edit area to see what changes have been made to our favorite mercs for UC. Raven, for example, had her night ops and auto-weapon specialties removed, was given a large boost in her mechanical skill... then her strength was decreased so that when you gave her a toolcase and a flak jacket she practically fell over. Sad

Steroid and Magic both had their lockpicking specialties removed. Talk about a shock...!

Many of our favorite "night ops" mercs are no longer night ops. Better check carefully before you plan those Ironman sqads. Seriously.

Private 1st Class

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96865]

Sat, 24 April 2004 02:38

hamsterdance

Messages:4
Registered:November 2002

So what is the minimum deaths you have in UC reloading only after quiting?

The bullets are magic in this game, pistols doing 60 dam to a heavily armored merc.

Civilian

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96866]

Sat, 24 April 2004 03:20

Messages:114
Registered:February 2004
Location: In the heart of Transilva...

Dr. Q, Wolf, Spider, Igor, Static, Scope, Lynx, Shadow are still night ops (don't remember if Shadow was a night ops in plain JA2, I think I never used him in that game).

Sergeant

Re: Hardcore Finish - Anyone Done It Yet?[message #96867]

Sat, 24 April 2004 03:24

Messages:114
Registered:February 2004
Location: In the heart of Transilva...

@hamsterdance
Since I played Ja2 for three months back in 1999 before I realised I can make an IMP merc, I think this time I will just keep my troops rolling even if my IMP will become a (dead) hero for the freedom of Danubia in the first week from D day. Very Happy

In the last three days I have started over for five times. But this time I WILL play my current game up untill Brenda is dead or all the available mercs will be dead, whichever may come first! Very Happy