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| Re: Damn cover in UB sucks![message #221824]
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Thu, 18 June 2009 14:50  
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 Shanga |
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Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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@Off_topic - yes but it's still a cube. With more or less penetration stoppage. And in default UB maps some nub map designer from Sirtech screwed up that cover for big rocks cause they're as soft as pillows. 
But what we really need for JSD to provide "realistic" cover is a smaller JSD (on x,y,z coords). Smaller bricks, if you wish. That would allow future mods (cleary nobody wants to re-edit all the JA2/UB maps... then maybe Logisteric does) to provide decent cover.
In red you have the basic models of current JSDs. In short, one represents "the rock", the other represents "the tree". It's clear who wins here. In green you have my suggested JSD. Half the size on all axes, allowing more detailed trees to be built (and more details rocks, too).
Instead of building smaller JSDs (maybe the isometric engine doesn't allow it, dunno), Sirtech used the workaround Off_topic mentioned. Made trees easier to "penetrate" and rocks harder. But this is far from a perfect solution, because a thin tree doesn't actually provide protection as drawn in the STI, it covers a whole tile. It's just a huge block of concrete, only softer.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 14:55] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Damn cover in UB sucks![message #221858]
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Thu, 18 June 2009 17:31
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Now prepare for the biggest suprise of your life! Here's how the "huge boulder", the biggest rock, straight out of JA2UB tileset, looks like:
[image removed, posted below better comparative version]
What do you see here? BIG freaking brain failure! Instead of making the big rock... BIG, they only used 2/5 of the bottom layer, so while a rock is wide (protects you when you are proned and blocks your view), but it's ONLY 2/5 high!!!! So when you think you're hidden beneath this huge bolder, you're actually behind the crappiest cover ever!
So thats why you are getting shot to hell... enemies can shot you in the torso at ease... the freaking rock is missing the 3rd layer, which in the STI is represented as the "top".
[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 18:12] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Damn cover in UB sucks![message #221862]
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Thu, 18 June 2009 17:48
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Couldn't locate at a glance a similar rock, but i did found some differences. First off, big rocks in JA2 have HUGE base. Almost double. And they appear "hollow" (aka JSD is build as "walls", probably to save time/space/brainpower). And small rocks in JA2 are 2/5, while in UB they are 1/5. Still the height of BIG rocks in JA2 seems limited to 2/5 also.... BUT their design is different (they only have a small "tip", so you wont expect that part to protect you).
Also I suspect, after peeking thru UB tilesets, that some rocks simply don't have JSDs. So they are immaterial. They simply forgot to pack them.
[image removed, posted below better comparative version]
Now compare the two and tell me behind which you find yourself more comfortable when you're looking at 15 redshirts.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 18:13] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Damn cover in UB sucks![message #221864]
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Thu, 18 June 2009 18:05
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Strike that, I've found two similar rocks and replaced the images, complete with JSD detailed properties. Although they appear similar, they aren't. But regarding UB, my best guess is that it's not the JSDs which are screwed up that make cover so crappy, it's their lack in some tilesets.
PS: Even so, why they scrapped the JA2 JSDs when clearly all they did was paint the rocks differently, it's beyond me.
Here's a comparative view of the two rocks, clearly similar in shape, but strangely different in properties:
[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 18:13] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Damn cover in UB sucks![message #221872]
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Thu, 18 June 2009 18:48
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Will GatesCopy rock JSD's from tileset 0 in JA2 into Tileset 50 in UB (don't ask why they used a new generic, barking mad and rename if applicable). That should fix it but with the Caveat that game might not like it. I know JA2 will accept NO external JSD's placed in Tileset 0. There's a chance UB will reject external JSD's placed in Tileset 50. Then again try it, what have you got to lose?
Well in theory it might work, but JA2 doesn't have snow covered rocks. It would fix the non-snow maps though. The only solution for snow maps, which are particular to JA2UB, would be to copy the data from JA2 "big rock" JSD to JA2UB "big rock on snow". They dont differ in size, only in color. Alas, I only got the viewer to work, not the editor.
EDIT: MDROCKS.JSD from 0, respectively 50th tileset are identical. But they arent' snow covered, just regular. The layout of the snow-covered-rock JSD is different so it WILL crash the game if you replace it with MDROCKS.JSD
This also explains why cover sucks badly only in snow maps, while in the normal UB maps is relatively similar to JA2. As you said, the nub intern was put in charge of creating the new tilesets and he took it to himself to screw them up instead of looking at what JA2 map makers did.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 18:55] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Damn cover in UB sucks![message #221885]
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Thu, 18 June 2009 19:15
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| Shanga |
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Messages:3480
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia |
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Hmm... my dear god... found the "culprit" rocks. Expect a suprise.
Found 2ROCK1.JSD+STI. It's the set with the snow rocks. They correspond to MONTROCK.JSD+STI from JA2 (the set with the fireplace, but no snow on them). Suprise, suprise, they are freaking identical!
NOW I am REALLY confused. Of course, it's hard to be accurate when you compare apples and oranges, especially when someone mixed them up so bad, but wtf...
So, conclusion - before I make a larger fool of myself.
A) If cover behind rocks in UB sucks, so does cover behind large rocks in JA2 (I think it's the desert tilset). Both are 2/5 and if you're crouched, you're sitting duck. Trees offer MUCH better cover, but they are "thinner" (if what Off_topic said is accurate) aka bullets sometimes can pass thru. Anyway, the body of most trees are comprised of 3x3 width and 5 height, which basically gives a standing/crouched merc almost total cover. (TBD: I haven't located yet the snowed trees in UB, interesting if those are just as large).
B) Large rocks need to be rebuilt with a 3rd layer. This requires some testing though on the line of sight when crouched. If you ask me, I'd make the 3rd layer only as a small "tip" so you could basically move to side, shoot, move back to cover.
C) Considering everything we've assumed about JSD is wrong and they are actually VERY powerful design tools, the sky is the limit. If we figure out the dotNET editor.
[Updated on: Thu, 18 June 2009 19:34] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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