Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Modding, Customising, Editing » v1.13 XML Customization » What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do? (In Items.xml)
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361803 is a reply to message #361799]
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Tue, 10 November 2020 17:00  
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 Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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silversurfer wrote on Mon, 09 November 2020 15:49That's what <sBackpackWeightModifier> is used for.
I see. Thanks, I would never had guessed.
So there is no setting to simulate a powered exoskeleton. A pity. Oh well.
For the record, the armor is supposed to be awfully bulky and heavy (80kg+), but of course you don't feel any weight when wearing it. Unfortunately it's not very practical to wear (stealth -100%, no crouching or lying down, etc), so it's both a huge help and a huge pain in the back as most of the time you'll have to lug it around, filling up the inventories of two beefy mercs.
BTW, while we're on the backpack topic, I was toying with said MAX_BACKPACK_WEIGHT_TO_CLIMB setting, and noticed that a backpack weight setting which allows you to climb on a roof doesn't allow you to jump low walls. Which is kind of silly, isn't it?
Is this a bug, or do the "climbing" values not affect "fence jumping"?
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361841 is a reply to message #361836]
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Sat, 14 November 2020 15:42
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 00:35Did you try to make your exoskeleton using the format for armor, like the three pieces of a gillie suit?
Indeed. I'm using the EOD suit as temporary graphics.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 00:35Up the armor and degredation values to whatever you want and alter the AP penalties to positive numbers. Give them 100% coverage and make them the weight you think they should have.
Indeed, done all that.
I also tried to incorporate the "gas mask" protection and the NVG night vision into the helmet.
Funny enough, adding a <gas mask> tag to the helmet not only does not protect the wearer, it also negates any real gas mask the wearer might wear. So apparently that's not possible anymore (it worked in 3356, which is where I started this project).
I had more chance with the night vision: Both night vision and thermal vision still work just fine when implemented in the helmet.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 00:35breaking the suit down into three components, helmet, body, and leggings, would make it easier to transport when not being worn.
That's actually the only way to transport it: The very idea is that the weight of the 3 pieces together would be >150% of a (stronger) merc's weight allowance, and thus pin the carrier down, making travel near impossible.
You can only carry it if you distribute the 3 pieces in 3 backpacks, which in turn restricts what else those three mercs can carry.
Obviously when wearing it, the armor's hydraulic system should negate the weight. Without this, wearing it turns you into a well-protected statue...
I've put it on a back burner till I can solve that issue. I see no point of implementing a super-strong armor giving you lots of advantages without having some drawback.
The point of this armor was that towards the end, fights are fought with 12.7mm HMGs, against which your normal ballistic armor is as (in)efficient as a cotton t-shirt would be... This special armor allows you to survive that kind of damage, kinda, most of the time, and with some well-planned tactics you can win the game without losing dozens of mercs.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361852 is a reply to message #361842]
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Sun, 15 November 2020 18:28
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 16:03other than ammo for the weapon and power for the suit
Ammo for an armor suit? 
You lost me here. It's just an armor, you wield normal guns.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 16:03A limited amount of power is another matter and I wouldn't know where to begin to simulate that.
By making edits in the executable, which is way over my pay grade. AFAIK Flugente did it for his WH40K mod, but for me it's obviously not an option.
It would be silly for a powered armor to run on AA batteries, so the "Needs Batteries" tag won't help here (wouldn't work anyway, for there is no specific action, and "Need Batteries" doesn't change the inherent quality of an item). Also, which of the 3 armor parts gets the power source, and how do you stop the vision-enhancing helmet from working if the vest runs out of juice?
Long story short, power requirements would be an excellent limitation, but it's not an option for me.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 16:03I never considered a gas mask.
Well, if it protects you, it should definitely filter breathable air. I'd consider it as one of the basics, at the same level as projectile protection.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 16:03I wonder if the problem with the gas mask is related to the number or descriptors on the helmet's attachment slots, or something in the descriptions for the gas mask and NVG that prevents them from being worn at the same time.
Don't know, all I know is that when trying it out, it didn't work, and the wearer got gas damage even when wearing a real gas mask underneath, at least until I removed the <gas mask> tag from the armor, and the real gas mask started working again.
A helmet is not a "face gear" item, I'm suspecting the game doesn't accept a gas mask which isn't a "face gear" item anymore. It even creates some kind of conflict, negating a normal gas mask. Anyway, whatever the reason, it doesn't work.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 16:03You have obviously put a lot of time into this
Around 10 years... 
I've actually implemented and play-tested almost all this in version 3356, and am now porting (well, redoing) everything to the latest version.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sat, 14 November 2020 16:03But making it work would worth it just to see the look on Diedreanna's face when you break through the door (or the wall) of the throne room wearing one.
Well, chances are she won't notice...
First because of game mechanics, obviously, then 98% of the time when I kill her she never knows what hit her (sniped from afar while she's running around. I usually don't even cross the mined corridor in her bunker, I just blow down the door to get a line of sight, and wait for an interrupt), and last because it's not that formidable. It's supposed to be more stock SciFi armor than Iron Man super-suit...
[Updated on: Sun, 15 November 2020 18:32] Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361866 is a reply to message #361856]
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Mon, 16 November 2020 17:46
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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CarsonBlackman wrote on Sun, 15 November 2020 22:04What specifically do you envision would be the downside of the suit you are creating?
Well, there is what I would like to use, and what is accessible to me.
Initially, when I noticed those new tags which have appeared since 3356, weight seemed an excellent candidate, but apparently there is no way to give an item a general weight-reducing property. So here goes weight reduction.
I haven't solved that issue yet. Could even be that it still has no solution accessible without coding.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sun, 15 November 2020 22:04But usually suits will carry much improved weapons either in caliber or ROF.
Obviously someone wielding a M2 Browning .50 HMG would be a formidable opponent, able to shred almost anyone and anything (except tanks) to pieces. Which would completely overpower the game, if the M2 didn't weigh in at around 40 kg without the tripod. Add ammo to that, and obviously it becomes difficult to use solo for somebody who doesn't wear a strength-enhancing power armor...
So yes, power armor would indeed allow to wield special weapons, but well, as I said above, that ship has sunk. 
M2 remains usable with a tripod (attachment negating the huge penalties of the stand-alone M2, but adding 20 kg to the weapon, making it impossible to move assembled).
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sun, 15 November 2020 22:04a continuous drain on the mercs BP.
That's a very interesting idea, but how can an inert item drain breath?
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sun, 15 November 2020 22:04Then the merc has to either rest or use a canteen to restore BP in order to continue.
Using canteens isn't that much of a problem: In my game my mercs use a lot of heavy weapons which drain a lot of breath. Each merc carries 2-3 canteens, and every other turn takes a sip instead of shooting/moving. It's doable.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sun, 15 November 2020 22:04There are limitations to the existing game that are preventing implementing this idea the way you want to do it.
I've noticed!...
But then again I'm trying to turn a 3rd world setting into a Hollywood-grade SciFi setting, so I do expect to hit snags every other step.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Sun, 15 November 2020 22:04I would be willing to compromise a certain amount of realism in the modeling if I could get the result I was seeking.
Well, what other option than compromise is there?
But as you said yourself, only "if I could get the result I was seeking", or at least something fairly close to that. Which is very difficult (if not impossible), which is why I've been mulling this over for 10 years now, with very little to show...
Maybe build 9915 will eventually include all the tags I need to make this happen...
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361869 is a reply to message #361866]
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Mon, 16 November 2020 18:44
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| CarsonBlackman |
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Messages:64
Registered:August 2019
Location: At the beach |
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As I mentioned earlier, every example of a powered combat enhancing suit I have seen in novels uses either ammo or power, or both, as finite resources that determine the tactical limitations of the suit. These would seem to be excellent candidates for the drawbacks we would desire.
A bionic suit is definitely future tech but the basic idea would be that "somehow" the suit draws it's power from the metabolism of the person wearing it. Explaining the "somehow" would most likely involve the writing of an entire sci-fi novel, or at least a short story. But unless you really feel the need for a back story it isn't necessary. Remember in "Back To The Future" they didn't define how "Mr Fusion" actually worked or where the energy was stored, only what it did. Same idea here. Only the mechanics of operation would need to be defined. In the game, a merc's metabolism is represented by their BP reservoir. Physical activity reduces the BP total. Intense activity drains BP significantly. Resting restores BP so does certain items. The same process could be used to define the bionic cost in BP for the use of the increased abilities of the suit and the methods used to restore (recharge) BP.
Back when we first started discussing this, I suggested creating am IMP background with enhanced abilities to simulate a suit. This could be seen as a merc having received the required training to use the suit to it's full effect. Using both this and the "bionic" concept, it just may be possible to define the increased abilities a suit would have, while also establishing a system that would prevent a suit from being a completely overwhelming factor. The devil is going to be in the details of how strong to make it and how to create limiting factors, all within the existing structure of the game.
This is a fascinating conversation and the more we discuss this the more I want to look into it. This will require exploring more parts of the game's structure than I've done so far and modding parts I haven't tried yet. I'm sure I will walk paths you have walked and hit some of the same walls you hit. But that's how we learn.
[Updated on: Mon, 16 November 2020 23:57] Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361882 is a reply to message #361869]
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Wed, 18 November 2020 17:30
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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CarsonBlackman wrote on Mon, 16 November 2020 17:44finite resources that determine the tactical limitations of the suit.
In this case the real limitation would be resistance to damage.
The setting is combat in space: There is no cover, no maneuvering, no circling around an obstacle. You're inside a little tin room connected by a corridor to another little tin room where your opponent is, and the walls around you are all what keeps the deadly void from killing both of you. That limits your combat tactics to head-on blind assault, without regard for casualties. Consequently the soldiers are manufactured gen technology products, with increased aggression and total lack of self-preservation instinct.
Combat gear has also evolved accordingly: They use body armor, and high capacity, SMG-sized assault rifles shooting big caliber HEAT ammunition (think .50 Beowulf). Their range is ridiculously short, but then again, there is no need for longer ranges in the confined mazes of space ships and stations.
What's the point of eye-wateringly expensive armor if you have ammunition that can pierce it you might ask? Well, those weapons (or the armor) are not readily available, usually the marine is facing unarmored opponents (civilians) with lighter weapons, against which the armor is just fine. The stalemate only occurs in the unlikely case the army fights itself.
Which obviously arrived at some point, when some very distant systems decided they didn't care about the Federation, which started the "Internal Wars". One remnant of those past wars are the so-called "Choc Forces", which were the answer to the problem that if two army-grade forces met, they would just fight till the corpses blocked the corridors, separating the fighting parties...
Choc Forces were the bigger, meaner version of the standard federal marine, and they sported an improved armor which could resist a hail of those HEAT bullets for some time, actually just the time required to blast their opponents to kingdom come.
Think reactive armor on tanks: When the first shell arrives, the reactive armor explodes and neutralizes it, but if a second shell arrives, well, there is no reactive armor left.
Back to JA2-1.13 - I thought this could be simulated with the "reliability" settings, but any attempt I made (with 3356) was inconclusive, because the damage just gradually lowered the protection of the whole piece of armor. The damage is not localized enough, in the novel the hero often has a part of his armor destroyed, but manages to survive by turning the other side toward the enemies. This isn't an option in JA2, so I decided to go for another, totally different limiting system.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Mon, 16 November 2020 17:44Explaining the "somehow" would most likely involve the writing of an entire sci-fi novel
There are 5 of them actually (a pentalogy?), so the background is quite well explained.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Mon, 16 November 2020 17:44The same process could be used to define the bionic cost in BP for the use of the increased abilities of the suit and the methods used to restore (recharge) BP.
All right, but how can you increase breath depletion for just wearing something? Did I miss some tag? 
CarsonBlackman wrote on Mon, 16 November 2020 17:44and how to create limiting factors
That's precisely my issue here.
The gun's limiting factor is inherent: You can kill anything with a single shot, but it has the range of a .38 pistol, which is a problem when the enemy has long range heavy weapons. (Also ammunition is hard to come by, but that's another problem.)
The armor has no limitation so far: You can just walk up to the enemies and slap them to death...
(Before you ask - I pondered giving armor to the enemies too, but if everybody wears "common" armor, and the IMP "choc forces" armor, I can just divide by "armor" and have the IMP alone wear common armor...)
[Updated on: Wed, 18 November 2020 17:35] Report message to a moderator
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?[message #361886 is a reply to message #361884]
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Thu, 19 November 2020 01:09
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| Kurt |
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Messages:423
Registered:March 2004 |
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CarsonBlackman wrote on Wed, 18 November 2020 19:38aren't designed for space combat
Just to be sure we're talking about the same thing, I'm talking about combat inside space ships (in space), not floating around...
Anyway, that's the setting I'm trying to recreate; Making space ship interiors is pretty easy with Arulco's underground levels.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Wed, 18 November 2020 19:38They would not carry weapons that drastically unbalance the game.
It's not the weapons which unbalance the game, it's the lack of game balance. Yes, that sounds corny, but what I'm trying to say is that you can balance about anything with a little effort.
CarsonBlackman wrote on Wed, 18 November 2020 19:38vulnerability to being overwhelmed by sheer volume of fire.
That's the vulnerability of the Choc Forces armor: You hammer it long enough, it falls apart, revealing the soft and crunchy center...
Problem is that doesn't work in JA2, since it would require damage thresholds like "above given value it blocks all damage, below it doesn't block anything anymore" (You can imagine the nervousness of the wearer in the middle of a firefight seeing the "now you're naked" threshold approaching...).
Unfortunately AFAIK JA2 armor is linear, and 49% armor just blocks a wee little less damage than 50% armor. (Isn't it?)
CarsonBlackman wrote on Wed, 18 November 2020 19:38There are settings that control BP costs. No, "just wearing something" isn't one of them.
So it requires a special executable.
Given I can't code my way out of a paper bag I'll remain with the ugly temp solution I've set up so far, which is to give the enemy weapons that can shoot through that armor. Obviously it means that my mercs wearing normal armor are easy one-shot kills for the AI, but since the AI isn't too bright, that's manageable. Your heart still skips a beat every time the game alerts you about enemy snipers in the sector (they don't all carry the dreaded deadly anti-material rifle, so you never know till you've killed the very last of them).
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Master Sergeant
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What does <sBackpackWeightModifier> do?
