Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Vanilla Modding » Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100641]
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Sun, 14 March 2004 03:14  
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 Ninth Hour |
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Messages:33
Registered:January 2004 |
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I'm not an audio expert, but I have made my own burst sounds before.
The most straightforward and unsophisticated (and potentially most tedious) method for making an extended burst would be the following:
1) Open an existing wav for single shot (e.g. 7.62 NATO Single Shot.wav) in Sound Recorder. Single shot wavs tend to be around 0.6-0.7 seconds duration.
2) Move the slider to position 0.04 or 0.05 seconds, which is about as close as you can get and still be able to distinguish successive shots.
3) Mix your sound file with the same Single shot wav you used earlier. You now have a two-shot burst
4) The slider can continue to be moved at regular intervals of 0.05 seconds and mixed with the Single shot wav to give you the desired number of shots.
5) Save under a different file name each time you add a successive shot (e.g. Burst 6.wav, burst 7.wav, etc). If you're going to do this 29 times for a 30-round burst, however, it will be tedious.
6) In the code, you could then assign each burst size to the appropriate wav that was created (e.g. IF Burst_size= 10, THEN Assign_wav "Burst10.wav", or whatever syntax is appropriate. I don't know C, but you get the idea.)
Quite cumbersome, admittedly.
Alternatively, and I think this is what Headshot was suggesting, you could let the code itself determine how many shots are in a particular burst, and repeat the Single shot.wav the appropriate number of times at regular intervals (maybe every 0.04 or 0.05 seconds). I agree that this would be the more efficient method, as it gets the code to do what you otherwise would be doing manually.
You just need the appropriate Single shot.wav and someone who knows how to create the appropriate function in the code.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100646]
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Tue, 16 March 2004 04:58
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| Ninth Hour |
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Messages:33
Registered:January 2004 |
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Just an additional thought. If you ever do more tweaking on burst speed, maybe a "mathematical" approach might be possible?
For instance, someone could look up the rate of fire (ROF) for a particular weapon (lots of sites provide this information). Most likely, this will be given in rounds per minute. Simply do the necessary math to give you the amount of time per round fired.
So, for instance, if rate of fire for the FA-MAS is 900 rounds/minute,
900 rounds/60 second= 15 rounds/second
15 rounds/second= 1 round/0.071 seconds
So, in the code, you can define a variable called ROF, from which is calculated seconds per round (spr). Then the single shot can be played at a rate equal to spr (so every 0.07 seconds, in the case of FA-MAS).
When it actually comes time for the public to mod, we can then specify ROF in the ini file (or wherever is appropriate), and provide an appropriate single shot.wav, if it doesn't already exist. The burst sound will then be manufactured from that single shot (following the calculated spr) and we don't have to make separate burst sounds (unless we want to).
But if this isn't worth the effort, then never mind. Just an idea. In general, I think intervals of 0.04-0.07 seconds between successive shots are good for most automatic weapons.
Out of curiosity, does anyone understand the time scale, i.e. one turn= how many seconds? I never clarified this. I think the original JA game manual mentioned that 1 game turn= 10 seconds (or is it 5)? But I'm not sure about this now.
If the time scale were known, you could more precisely determine how many AP are needed to fire a particular number of rounds using a weapon of a particular ROF. The maximum burst size per game turn could also be calculated by the program and you would then not have to guess whether it's 10, 15, or 20 rounds. If 1 combat turn indeed= 10 seconds, I can understand why number of rounds per burst would be limited....a lot of the calculations, in the final analysis, would depend heavily on ROF.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100648]
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Tue, 16 March 2004 23:16
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| ramfall |
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Messages:405
Registered:January 2001
Location: JAmodsquad, Helsingborg, ... |
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I had similar thoughts regarding the burst speed - based on ROF - but I don't think that the playback of the animation and soundfile needs to be based on this. Digicrabs increased animation rate and generating of sound (based on single shot sound) is really good.
In the manual it is said that each turn represents 5 seconds. Each turn is divided into 25 AP, each second = 5 AP.
So, with a rate of fire of 900rpm:
900/12 turns per minute = 75 rounds per turn,
75/25AP per turn = 3 rounds per AP.
...this means that each extra AP spended in burst fire will add 3 rounds to the burst. Add to this a preperation time (aiming, unsafe, cocking etc) more of less equal to that of firing single fire.
This means that if the "ready time" is for example 6 AP (time untill the first 3 rounds in the burst is fired) and additional 4 AP is spent on bursting. During 10AP 15 rounds (3rounds+3rounds*4AP)would be fired. And if the merc would spend the whole 25 AP:s on a burst he or she would be able to fire 60 (3+19*3)rounds in a turn.
There are of course extra tweaks to add. My point is that a fixed, huge burst isn't useful. If a weapons has a fixed burst size of say 30 rounds (a normal clip) and the enemy goes down after, say 4 rounds, then the additional 26 rounds will be very annoying - going over the dead enemies body and wasting away in thin air...
:ramfall:
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100652]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 01:04
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| Ninth Hour |
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Messages:33
Registered:January 2004 |
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@ramfall:
Thanks for the clarification and calculations. I thought using ROF to synch sound was an elegant idea, but I trust the team to know best. I'm sure Digicrab's solution is excellent.
Now let me see if I understood your calculations correctly :
"ready time of 6 AP"
it takes maybe 1 AP (or 0.20 seconds, if we use the 5 AP= 1 second scale) to pull the trigger. So I assume the rest of the "ready time" represents what we currently know as the "draw cost" (i.e. the time needed to raise the gun, draw a bead on the target, and otherwise get ready to fire). This means that in your example, the draw cost was 5, pulling the trigger for a short burst was 1 AP, so that the first 3 rounds requires 6 AP altogether.
However, the next volley of rounds fired (at the same target, I assume)no longer has the draw cost, so the next 4 AP represents you pulling the trigger and leaving it depressed for 0.80 seconds, which corresponds- according to the ROF-to 12 rounds.
[QUOTE]
There are of course extra tweaks to add. My point is that a fixed, huge burst isn't useful. [\QUOTE]
I have to agree, in light of the logic that has been laid out. While I am accustomed to the fixed burst of original JA2, I think that variable bursts- where number of rounds per AP spent depend on ROF- are an elegant idea! It has the appeal of incorporating "real-world" data into the game mechanics.
I don't know how you plan to incorporate this idea into the interface, but maybe it could be done without any new buttons. Let me hazard an idea:
The burst button could, by default, represent a short burst (i.e. the burst represented by 1 AP: one trigger pull and release, or 3 rounds if ROF= 900). However, if you want to burst longer, you could always click on the right mouse button while the burst icon is over the target. Each click of the right mouse button will spend an extra AP on burst (you will see the increment on the burst icon itself) and there is NO UPPER LIMIT to how many AP you can spend on burst. As long as you have AP, you can keep the trigger held down. So conceivably, you could empty an entire clip into a single enemy, if you're so inclined, and don't mind wasting ammo and AP.
Thus, extra bursting will act like extra aiming, only you're not limited to an extra 4 AP. Does this sound feasible? It would be wonderful if you could pull it off.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100653]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 01:09
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| ramfall |
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Messages:405
Registered:January 2001
Location: JAmodsquad, Helsingborg, ... |
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@Shanga,
actually, there's no need for that start and stop setting - which sounds difficult to impliment.
There's an easier way to do this:
- Each extra right-click increases the burstsize with a set number (3 rounds in my example above, with 900rpm ROF)
- The "ready-time" is only used when first firing at a target or changing target (like the old draw cost)
- A continious burst without a target change don't require any ready-time - instead it will be possible to continue the burst for the cost of 1AP per 3 rounds
- This makes it possible to empty the clip in one, long continous burst - just like Kaerar wants
With this lineup it is possible to control the burst length without having to empty the whole clip each time.
The 3-round burst setting, which already been mentioned, would require some setting like this anyway. One way to do it, would be to add the ready-time after each burst (of three).
This would mean:
With a weapon with a 6AP ready time (this is a slow gun)
A full burst:
the merc spends 10AP (6 to ready the weapon +4AP bursting) to fire 15 rounds. The enemy still stands up so the merc doesn't release the trigger, instead he continous the burst untill the clip is empty.
This second time, there's no ready-time, since he's firing at the same target without changing stance, direction or anything. So, 5 AP (5*3) later the clip is empty (no matter how many AP the player spent on bursting, just like in the original game - if you tried to burst, but only had 1 round left in the weapon, you still had to pay the burst cost).
3-round burst
The merc flicks the burst setting to 3 round burst. He fires at a target. It costs 6AP (ready-time - symboling aiming, pulling the trigger etc), but he doesn't hit the target. He needs to fire again, which he does. This time it also costs 6AP and three rounds are fired. And so on. Each 3 round burst costs as much as firing a single shot.
Single shot
Same as 3-round burst
Another good thing with this ROF lineup is that it is possible to keep the graphics (of course altered so that it fits it's new purpose)for burst size (bullet graphics), so that it represents how many bullets can be fired per AP. -since 4 probably will be the highest number of bullets per AP (~1100 rpm) it is still possible to use this place to display the burst rate. But with a new purpose.
:ramfall:
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100655]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 01:32
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| ramfall |
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Messages:405
Registered:January 2001
Location: JAmodsquad, Helsingborg, ... |
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Sorry, the replies was entered as I wrote my reply.
@Kaerar,
yes, exactly so. Right-clicking means an extra AP has been spent on burstlenght.
@Ninth Hour,
our thoughts are very similar. And I'm not in any way saying that my version is the best. Far from it! The ready-time is in a way a draw cost, but not entirely. The draw cost I had in mind would be based on weapon weight and design. I playtested this during a long time and the result was very pleasing.
The draw cost would be a third factor: the time it takes to change target (just like in the original game), the ready-time is the amount of AP it costs to pull the trigger (of course should this cost not be as high as 6 AP - the largest amount of AP should be placed on the draw cost) and the last is the amount of extra points placed on either burst size or aiming.
So a better example would be: draw cost is based on the weight of the weapon; 1 AP per pound or 0,5 kilogram. So firing a 8 pound weapon would take 8 AP in "draw cost". The ready time for the same weapon is 2 AP - which represents the unsafing and pulling of the trigger. And third is the burst, in this case 2 AP.
So after 8+2+2 = 12 AP the user would have fired 6 rounds (which is about the same time it would take to fire the weapon in the original game).
If the merc continous to burst (without releasing the trigger) it only costs as much as the amount of burst AP to continue.
If the merc on the other hand is firing 3-round bursts or single bursts the next round would cost 2AP to pull the trigger at the same target.
If it is a new target the draw cost is added also, with 8 AP.
:ramfall:
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100657]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 01:44
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| Ninth Hour |
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Messages:33
Registered:January 2004 |
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Quote:Originally posted by Kaerar:
Hands up who would like to unload a clip of HP into Deidranna before finishing her off with a few grenades and LAW's!
I think there should be an Upper limit as you could not unload 100 rounds accurately at a single target (which you could abuse with a m/gun) Well, at the end of the game, ammo doesn't matter anymore. I, for one, wouldn't mind wasting an entire clip for the sheer spectacle of it... 
As for the Upper limit, well you're right about inaccuracy. That's why I think most players won't use max burst even if it's theoretically possible, since they'd just be wasting ammo. Smart players would be unleashing small, controlled bursts: just enough to take down a target. But why prevent rookies from getting carried away? 
Would it be easier to impose an upper limit in the code, or leave out the Upper limit and let the players decide for themselves how much to burst?
Another consideration. If "limitless" burst (misnomer, since APs available serve as the limit) is implemented, a new button called "max burst" might be needed. This would automatically use up all available AP, which in turn would save players a lot of right-clicking if they want to empty the clip.
Anyway, upper limit or no, this new burst idea is tremendous.
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100659]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 02:03
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| Ninth Hour |
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Messages:33
Registered:January 2004 |
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Quote:Originally posted by ramfall:
So a better example would be: draw cost is based on the weight of the weapon; 1 AP per pound or 0,5 kilogram. So firing a 8 pound weapon would take 8 AP in "draw cost". :ramfall: Basing draw cost on weapon weight is an interesting idea! But let me throw out an additional complication, which in no way has to be implemented. A Strength to weapon weight ratio.
Those with a higher Strength to weapon weight ratio get to reduce draw cost by a certain amount. So Steroid can ready his M82 Barrett faster than, say, Flo can. I think this makes a lot of sense. Steroid is pumped, so he can handle the weapon's weight easily, while Flo would be staggering around trying to lift the same weapon (maybe even incur draw cost PENALTY). however, depending on her strength, she may get bonuses on draw cost for very light pistols.
Yet another modifier to draw cost could be dexterity. Extremely dexterous mercs should be faster to draw. Of course, if they're weak, their dexterity bonus would be offset by their bad Strength to weight ratio. This means that mercs must be more appropriately matched to their weapons. Big guys can use big guns. But the wimpier mercs would have to use smaller guns if they want to have a reasonable draw cost.
Just a thought. I understand that the game mechanics shouldn't be made too complicated!
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Long Burst Sound Problem possible fix[message #100664]
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Wed, 17 March 2004 12:18
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| ramfall |
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Messages:405
Registered:January 2001
Location: JAmodsquad, Helsingborg, ... |
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@Kaerar,
with a draw cost based on weight - adding attachments would increase the draw cost, making it slower to aquire the target.
And also, since the draw cost represents the ability to switch targets - any scope would slow this process down, adding points to the draw cost based on the scopes strenght - stronger scopes takes longer time.
Laserscopes on the other hand reduces the time to switch target, as long as the target is within close range.
:ramfall:
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Master Sergeant
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