Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300797]
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Fri, 02 March 2012 20:53 
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Sandro |
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Messages:420
Registered:November 2008 Location: Mars |
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Mathmonkey:
I'd like to say something regarding the dilemma between spray fire and precision fire effectiveness. Since I mostly meddle into the traits and "RPG" elements of the game, from my point of view, the dilemma could be solved by merc abilities.
If you could make both combat aproaches equally effective, then merc specialization could draw the line between them. A dedicated marksman could be able to perform deadly precise shots which are AP expensive though, but won't be able to suppress i.e. deal with larger number of enemies. A dedicated machinegunner on the other hand would be as deadly as the sniper with his own method - spraying bursts after bursts keeping even 10 enemies down until he beat the hell outta them.
To achieve this equality, merc traits may help. Currently I am slowly developing my STOMP2 project, which brings more tools to get to this result. But in the meantime, you may use the STOMP1 traits settings to make bigger difference between the two specialists.
You may also consider several other things which may help achieving the equality goal:
a) Make aiming more AP expensive, but still effective..
b) Increase auto-fire rate of all weapons (there is a single ini setting for this)
So the player can choose to risk one precise bullet or spray a large quantum of bullets, also dependant on which type of merc is shooting. Add the increased recoil you already made on top.
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That's my 0.02$ for the mentioned dilemma. Yet my point of view may be wrong.
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300816]
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Sat, 03 March 2012 01:05 
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Asthner |
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Messages:40
Registered:August 2010 Location: Poland, Lodz |
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"Mathmonkey"Asthner, I am a gun enthusiast IRL and preserving the realistic feeling of JA2 is a top priority for me.
I believe in making the ballistics of the weapons, and their handling, behave in a way that is as consistent with life as possible when doing so does not compromise game balance. The two areas I would first look to compromise realism in favor of game balance are gun prices (a gun that's cheap in real life needing to be rather expensive to balance its usefulness), and reduced damage (see below rant).
I'd urge you to be careful with that damage reduction. Or at least stay in proportion, so that all the guns damage is lower, but it stays the same in relation between them. The thing I liked the most in MaM was the care and effort put into redoing the ammo. What began as simple differentiating FMJ and AP ended up with a study in bullet properties in terms of their tumble and penetration. Now all the ammo *really* felt different and usable for appropriate purposes. Now if on top of that you (or illuminatus?) could be able to modify and balance the effective range and accuracy... That'd be a dream come true. 
"Mathmonkey"The key to quick incapacitation is shot placement at the CNS or spine - anything else, from any weapon, is not a guaranteed kill and instead may result in a "bleed out".
Well, don't we have critical hits to represent that? To be honest, I don't remember. Do we? 
=-=-=-=
As for the lethality vs inaccuracy discussion, I was going to post, but Sandro covered my whole point of view, and more (with using a tweaked trait system). I like the idea to be able to achieve results with either carefully placed shots (with more accurate, but also more AP-demanding guns) or sensibly sprayed bullets. This brings additional gameplay options and encourages judging the mercs ability to perform in both of those roles, and then equipping and using them accordingly.
I should be able to play with your modificacions in a week. I hope the new SCI comes out by then.
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Corporal
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300823]
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Sat, 03 March 2012 02:35 
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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Fighting for Drassen now. Found some interesting shotguns to compare.
As long as I'm using buckshot, I'm fine, but slugs are... uhh. Lots of 'facepalm' moments, when I miss at 2-3 squares Slug damage sucks too, I often end up with dealing 17 or 30 damage per hit, and buckshot delivers like, 120. And the character using shotguns has the ranger trait!
I really like Buns' Beretta .45 carbine, she hits targets out of gun range very often. Got my hands on a Mini-14, I'm really curious how it would work without any optics.
Unfortunately, Lucky's MP5K dominates everything, I'm usually able to land a full 3-round burst out of weapons range (no attachments at all). Aimed autofire is deadly with this small thing.
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Staff Sergeant
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300871]
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Sat, 03 March 2012 21:24 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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@Sandro, I look forward to Stomp2. Seems like there's a lot of work being done. 
@Sandro and Asthner, I'd like to hear your thoughts about what niche each specialization can fill, so we can keep them differentiated. For example, shotguns are short to medium range, and favor Rangers. Right now strength has no affect on them, but should it?
I can see how character stats can balance the weapons and let them grow into their own niche... so... another problem is: if weapons are still very deadly at all in general, the game will continue to favor camping in one place way too often, so what would you do about that? (At least in Iron Man mode.) If the guns are going to stay deadly something needs to be done to make movement, flanking and positioning less of a bad gamble in general (since it eats your AP pool and gives you nothing back).
As for critical hits, we have headshots! None others that I'm aware of.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 March 2012 21:41] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300872]
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Sat, 03 March 2012 21:35 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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@Biernath, I noticed the same problem with Slugs with my buddy Steroid. Remarkably, I didn't change the slug ammo type at all, they just manage to be that awful even after the huge shotgun buffs.
Currently the Slug ammo type is "Ball", but I'm considering making a new ammo type for all slug rounds, and see if I can build into it a damage multiplier and accuracy and range bonus. I think that would still be realistic, since the ball's intrinsic bonuses over the shotgun represent its relatively higher damage and accuracy than buckshot/flechette.
Also, I haven't used the MP5k but I've run into my own share of OP SMGs. The reason the MP5s are so deadly, is that I set their recoil stat to be very low because MP5s are very controllable in real life. I thought the "Range" stat would reduce their damage over range, balancing it out... but it doesn't really, not enough. Their controllable automatic fire needs a nerf.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 March 2012 22:01] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300873]
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Sat, 03 March 2012 21:36 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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P.S. We need a code change to make the Range stat more meaningful and another to make automatic fire hit and miss some rather than hit all the time or miss all the time!!
Todo list for v.2:
-Make slugs better.
-Possible buff to shotguns or some shotguns (Still need to test the Jackhammer, Striker and USAS - the "strongest" 3)
-Some kind of SMG nerf.
-Some kind of nerf that affects all autos: LMGs, ARs and SMGs. Looking at reducing accuracy across the board for all automatic weapons, increasing APs to fire additional rounds across the board (thanks Sandro), or a small damage nerf to all automatic weapons fire
-Continue to increase the damage of high calibur pistols whose ammo is not found in the wild, to give the player an incentive to try buying said weapons.
-Rebalance the "Coolness Rating" to make all ammo types available (1)
-Rebalance the "Coolness Rating" and Price of some guns to reflect their balance changes.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 March 2012 21:50] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300886]
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Sat, 03 March 2012 23:24 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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On the thing with the MP5k, what looks really suspicious is that it has 2 aiming levels. It's got inferior stats to an MP5/10 except that it has that one fewer aiming level. The MP5k has much worse recoil though. Would you mind trying the MP5/10 or A4 and let me know if it feels weaker for your merc? I'll keep at some playtesting too.
I'd like to make machine pistols have less aiming levels but one nerf to autos could be to raise the aiming levels for everything by 1, which would have the side effect of being a slight nerf to the Machine pistols and SMGs, especially - which is needed.
The aim levels on shotguns are 4-5, but I didn't change those. Should probably take a second look at shotgun aiming levels. That's also another possible way to buff them.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 March 2012 23:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300899]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 03:25 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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I did some more research into the issue and it looks like Weapon Handling is indeed the culprit. The MP5k has a weapon handling of 2, the MP5/10 a weapon handling of 7.
Is there any documentation about what formulas this affects?
[Updated on: Sun, 04 March 2012 03:27] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300901]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 03:40 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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@Sandro -- Says the guy working on a custom interrupt system. =P
I don't want to step on your toes, but I'm going to do whatever it takes for me to enjoy the game... the more I think about it, that probably means messing with the interrupt system at some point. But that's for me (and to balance Iron Man especially).
ETA: Dang Sandro, you've done a lot of modding! I'm going to plug the weapon XML changes into "Sandro's Mod" when I start another playthrough and balancing iteration, and try to get a feel for what you have done.
[Updated on: Sun, 04 March 2012 07:21] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300905]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 05:40 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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I don't fully understand what Weapon Handling does, but low numbers are definitely resulting in strange behavior, and for now I'm going to set weapon handling to a floor of 8 for all non-pistol weapons.
This is a good time for me to start using source control, since there's a high likelihood I'll want to back out of this change when we have more knowledge. I prefer Git, but I'm even being nice to all you JA fanatics and microsoft fanboys by using SVN. Here's the URL for a subversion repository for the project. Check it out to your Data-1.13 folder to develop against it.
https://jsulliva.beanstalkapp.com/ja2xml
[Updated on: Sun, 04 March 2012 05:51] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300907]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 06:14 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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Also, source control introduces a great new opportunity for players with only a basic understanding of how to use SVN - XML personalization through reversion.
Check out the source code, then choose SVN -> show log. You can then look at the changes each revision makes. Each revision will only make a specific, isolated kind of change and apply it in a consistent manner. Because of this, you can right click on a change you don't like and choose "SVN -> revert changes for this revision". Then that feature you dislike will be removed from your XML files, but you get to keep the other changes. It's like magic, only better!
For example, let's say you like all the changes except you want to be able to use revolvers with scopes. You can revert the revision that says, "Removed the ability to mount scopes on revolvers" using the above instructions and then you can dual wield those scoped Anacondas all over again.
[Updated on: Sun, 04 March 2012 06:16] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300908]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 07:20 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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@Asthner thank you very much for the link!!
Hidden variables confound game balance and make weapon stats confusing to the end user. Unless handling does something which other stats like accuracy, aiming levels, recoil, etc. don't account for, I agree I'd prefer to set all the handling values to a consistent number like you suggested, and then rebalance the stats for what it's affecting, like ready costs or accuracy, according to the formula for handling.
Ideally I'd know how handling bonuses are computed and add or subtract those bonuses to the items empirically before setting their handling stat to be the same number as the other guns. If I can't figure it out in a reasonable amount of time, I'll just set the handling for all weapons except pistols to a middling handling value, like 10, and then keep going from there.
[Updated on: Sun, 04 March 2012 07:26] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300917]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 09:15 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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Sandro
If you could make both combat aproaches equally effective, then merc specialization could draw the line between them. A dedicated marksman could be able to perform deadly precise shots which are AP expensive though, but won't be able to suppress i.e. deal with larger number of enemies. A dedicated machinegunner on the other hand would be as deadly as the sniper with his own method - spraying bursts after bursts keeping even 10 enemies down until he beat the hell outta them.
***
a) Make aiming more AP expensive, but still effective..
b) Increase auto-fire rate of all weapons (there is a single ini setting for this)
Merc traits to completely change how effective a particular weapon is would be an excellent idea. Marksman/sniper currently is almost useless at higher levels, as I understand it... making it so that it continues to have a major impact on long range accuracy would mean that sniper rifles wouldn't dominate your entire team, but would still be deadly in the hands of a particular merc. Similarly, autoweapons/machine gunner would make aimed autofire appropriately deadly for a particular merc, but would make suppressive fire more of a tactic for a merc without those traits.
On the rest, option A might be a solid idea. Option B would require aimed autofire re balancing, I think.
Biernath_J'Range' of weapon needs to be more important, aimed autofire is really overpowered.
The bonus range from slugs is useless, because 'range' overall is useless.
I have tons of slugs now, I'll do some more shooting after I find a 2x scope and a rifled choke.
Why do some shotguns need so much aimclicks to fully aim? SPAS-15 has like, 6 of them!
Range went from being the most important trait in OCTH to being something of an afterthought in NCTH. Match ammo seems almost useless, now. I can hit with a weapon reliably from well outside its range if I'm using a powerful scope. A range 40 G11 can hit accurately at half a normal map distance with a 7x scope... that's kinda nuts. Weapons should get a crazy penalty for shooting outside of their proper range, because at some level you have to respect that not all bullets are equal. .50 BMG goes farther than 5.56, and that's the end of it.
And the shotgun comments are spot on. Reflex type iron sites on a shotgun promote pretty solid aiming speed, additionally. They shouldn't take too many more steps to aim than a pistol does.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300930]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 13:42 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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I would think shotguns should have a slightly higher draw cost, but a faster aim cost, than pistols.
Especially on stuff like a double barrel shotgun, with just a front site... you can't even aim except for generally down the barrel, making for a really brief aiming experience (as well as a somewhat inaccurate weapon. Well, inaccurate for a shotgun...)
Shotguns should also have a reasonable accuracy when fired reflexively, "from the hip" or whatever. Within twenty feet, you don't miss much...
In this way, shotguns would remain a tool primarily for close quarters, with some accuracy at better range than pistols. They don't replace pistols, though, because pistols are still the best weapon to carry all the time (low weight, small) that you can draw and fire the fastest (quickest ready time).
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300953]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 22:28 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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For SVN Access, enter no user name or password for read-only. If that doesn't work please let me know.
In regards to shotguns and aiming levels, in real life shotguns have pretty similar ergonomics to rifles.
The idea behind ALs is to represent the fact that you can only get so much out of aiming certain weapons, for example, the ordinary shooter can only get about 1/4th the accuracy of an aimed pistol as compared to a rifle. ALs compensate the shooter who uses the weapon with lower potential for accuracy by letting them achieve the maximum aim faster.
Shotguns are definitely more accurate than pistols in terms of where the barrel is pointing when you pull the trigger due to the fact that they have rifle-like ergonomics, hence the shotgun receives more ALs, a higher accuracy stat, and a higher raise AP cost. Important note: it's important to distinguish between accuracy (where you pointed the barrel) and the dispersion area of the pellets/darts around the center of the barrel when you fire. The second attribute needs to be reflected in the barrel choke, and ammo type.
Thoughts?
[Updated on: Sun, 04 March 2012 22:38] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300958]
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Sun, 04 March 2012 23:20 
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Ryft |
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Messages:278
Registered:June 2009 |
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MathmonkeyIn regards to shotguns and aiming levels, in real life shotguns have pretty similar ergonomics to rifles.
The idea behind ALs is to represent the fact that you can only get so much out of aiming certain weapons, for example, the ordinary shooter can only get about 1/4th the accuracy of an aimed pistol as compared to a rifle. ALs compensate the shooter who uses the weapon with lower potential for accuracy by letting them achieve the maximum aim faster.
Shotguns are definitely more accurate than pistols in terms of where the barrel is pointing when you pull the trigger due to the fact that they have rifle-like ergonomics, hence the shotgun receives more ALs, a higher accuracy stat, and a higher raise AP cost. Important note: it's important to distinguish between accuracy (where you pointed the barrel) and the dispersion area of the pellets/darts around the center of the barrel when you fire. The second attribute needs to be reflected in the barrel choke, and ammo type.
Thoughts?
Hrm... you know, I just realized I'm incredibly biased in my opinions on shotgun handling, too, because I've never bothered with slugs.
Shotguns may have similar ergonomics to rifles, but when you are dealing with shot you aren't taking the time to aim as precisely as with a rifle. So just as slow to ready, but faster to aim and shoot. Of course, that would change completely with a slug, wouldn't it? With only one projectile you would become more concerned with the true vector of that barrel, and that would require as much aiming as a rifle.
In game, I guess that means shotguns using buckshot should have a solid chance to hit with part of the scatter when not fully aiming. It actually might already be this way, but I'm not sure.
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Master Sergeant
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300986]
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Mon, 05 March 2012 06:44 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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@Kaerar - if you want to make Irons better, one thing you can do is to go to your NCTHConstants.ini and change the NormalRange from 70 (7 squares, the effective range of irons) to a larger number. You can also increase this scope penalty multiplier that defaults to .7, to something like 1.0.
If you want to use scopes on your high cals, you can revert the changes if you want to. Or download alpha .2 at the top of the page - it doesn't have the scope removal in there yet.
But honestly, the system needs a retooling so that irons suck less in general. I'm considering giving a lot of weapons' irons and/or reflex sights a base scope mag factor of 1.5-2x, until a serious code change is added. Thanks to "Revert changes from this revision" I can magically make any scope hacks disappear overnight if someone retools the scope system. Thoughts?
[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2012 07:26] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300987]
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Mon, 05 March 2012 07:00 
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Mathmonkey |
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Messages:37
Registered:February 2012 |
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RyftHrm... you know, I just realized I'm incredibly biased in my opinions on shotgun handling, too, because I've never bothered with slugs.
Shotguns may have similar ergonomics to rifles, but when you are dealing with shot you aren't taking the time to aim as precisely as with a rifle. So just as slow to ready, but faster to aim and shoot. Of course, that would change completely with a slug, wouldn't it? With only one projectile you would become more concerned with the true vector of that barrel, and that would require as much aiming as a rifle.
In game, I guess that means shotguns using buckshot should have a solid chance to hit with part of the scatter when not fully aiming. It actually might already be this way, but I'm not sure.
An interesting thing you may not know about shotguns is that aiming is crucially important at point blank range. The reason is that the pellets exit the shotgun in a tight pattern shaped like the gauge of the barrel, and if the hole it creates doesn't damage CNS or spine, it's not going to incapacitate a determined enemy. As the pellets or flechettes disperse to an optimal range, their wounding and incapacitation potential is increased. This optimal range is variable depending on the barrel length of the shotgun (longer = less dispersion), the choke, gauge, and whether you're using magnum shells, flechettes, etc., but every dispersion has an optimum wounding potential that's not point blank.
I have no plans to try to simulate all this or seriously mess with dispersal patterns, it would be way too hard and lead to all kinds of problems. But a result of this is that people who are trained to defend themselves with shotguns are trained to assume that shot placement is critical and act accordingly. Food for thought about the level of effort that is best applied when aiming buckshot & flechettes.
[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2012 07:23] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private 1st Class
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| Re: Weapon XML tweaks optimized for NCTH - would these be a candidate for Trunk?[message #300994]
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Mon, 05 March 2012 09:02 
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Biernath_J |
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Messages:166
Registered:August 2003 Location: Poland |
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SandroThat is weird, I was already fixing that bug. Gotta check it again, thanks for the saying.
Apart from that, what else do mean by IIS not working for you?
I don't really get the idea of IIS, and I was unable to find the IIS thread. I'm pretty clueless.
It makes finding bugs harder if I don't know the things are happening are supposed to happen.
EDIT: found it now, searching the forums was a bad idea, google ftw!
http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=290787&page=1
reading now!
[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2012 09:47] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Staff Sergeant
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