Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance: Unfinished Business » Tools and Guides Repository (Archive) » Improving Original JA2 graphics
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184747] Sat, 10 May 2008 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BallerDave

 
Messages:72
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

wow, last time i looked into this thread was a month ago or so. now take a look at all that. u guys are just great, u should get paid for this or something.

soon as this gets finished theres gonna be another ja2 orgy Smile

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184761] Sat, 10 May 2008 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
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Location: Australia :D
I think lisac is relatively fluent in LW3D so lets not confuse the issue with other programs. Personally I'd use Maya as it generally is better for natural looking objects and lighting (plus subsequent animations), but thats me.

I am just happy its going ahead (slowly but thats better than backwards Wink ) and people are willing to help Very Happy

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184765] Sat, 10 May 2008 18:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nixou is currently offline Nixou

 
Messages:56
Registered:January 2008
Location: France
dave17
wow, last time i looked into this thread was a month ago or so. now take a look at all that. u guys are just great, u should get paid for this or something.

soon as this gets finished theres gonna be another ja2 orgy Smile


Some years ago i was wuch a huge fan of JA that when i knowed there would be a JA3, i was just overwhelmed. I would overplay it like a fool even if objectively a bad game, i was such a JA fan.

But now with that much improvements that have been and are to make on JA2 im not even sure i will like JA3.

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #184772] Sat, 10 May 2008 19:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lt.Havoc is currently offline Lt.Havoc

 
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I

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184806] Sat, 10 May 2008 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BallerDave

 
Messages:72
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

hey guys. what do you think when u can make it that it is visible when u wear the ghillie suit? i kno it would take an awful lot of work but it would just look amazing. what do u guys think? http://txfowlers.com/images%2Fproducts%2FProducts%20II%2FGSGLV%20CASS%20JKIT%20COL%20CU%2FCAMO_UNLIMITED_JACKAL_GHILLIE_SUIT.jpg

[Updated on: Sat, 10 May 2008 22:47] by Moderator

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #184909] Mon, 12 May 2008 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
the scorpion
...sometimes, "cute" proportions look "more pictoresque"....

Yeah, too bad we have soooo many pixels to work with, no?

Kaerar
That looks much better. Do you have an ingame fully coloured version to compare?

Not yet, in two days (hopefully).

Slax
I used to dabble in 3d some time ago and learned that Lightwave isn't the way to go.
It's probably fine if you've used it enough but I just want to add that 3DSM or Maya might make some things a bit easier.

At least you'd get better control over shadows/shading Smile

For this project, almost any 3D software (like Anim8tor) will do. The reason I've chosen LW3D, aside from it that I've been a rabid fan of this piece of software, is the fact I've been most skilled with it :vader:

Kaerar
...Personally I'd use Maya as it generally is better for natural looking objects and lighting (plus subsequent animations), but thats me.

Personally, I hope you're gonna bite your tongue so hard to get unable to speak such heresy again! :trooper:

dave17
...what do you think when u can make it that it is visible when u wear the ghillie suit?...

This feature has been discussed before and might be (eventually) implemented. But it'll take time. Humongous amount of it.

Thanks to everyone for your support and please don't mind my replies, I've drunk a few beers more than usually :cheers:

Gotta work tomorrow all day long, I'm about to have 3 days off after it, so keep your fingers crossed and stay tuned for the new updates.

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185087] Tue, 13 May 2008 16:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kaerar is currently offline Kaerar

 
Messages:2022
Registered:January 2003
Location: Australia :D
Lol I have played with LW3D and Maya, still prefer Rhino3D for making models then exporting to whichever. But LW is very powerful in one way and Maya in another. Having learnt more Maya than LW I would choose Maya Razz

Anyway look forward to seeing the new stuff Smile

Have a good one Very Happy

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Lieutenant

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #185093] Tue, 13 May 2008 16:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
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Lt.Havoc
I

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #185095] Tue, 13 May 2008 16:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
Messages:756
Registered:August 2006
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one more thing i thought of: would it be possible to add another kind of layer to the sprites, which hives them some sort of bright, clearly visible outline? or maybe a colored marker above the head like in the sims? so you can find your mercs position easyer at night and in dense foliage?
or maybe make their silhuette pulse from light to dark or red or something.

of course all optional and only per hotkey.

but i think this would improve the ergonomics of the game quite a bit.

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185099] Tue, 13 May 2008 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
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@mauser: There's already an option in game that allows you to find the mercs ... mercs lights or something... it's selectable in game options. That adds a layer of light around you mercs. Now, imagine you switch that light to a better indicator, like a circle around your merc?
Sounds easy, don't know though if the respective lights are a tileset graphic or simply generated by the engine. A coder should be able to answer that.

The real breakthru of finding the proper 3d settings for generating JA2 sprites is adding a new, fresh "look" to the game. No more red-shirt/yellow-shirts/black-shirts. With some wizardry and a lot of work you could in theory add uniforms or at least bullet-proof vests to the bodies so they dont look like tourists. For example i'd remake the bodies like this:

1) yellow shirts - should wear a guard/police uniform, no body armour, no helmets
2) redshirts - should wear standard cammo army uniform, no body armour, with helmets
3) blackshirts - should wear black specops gear with body armor and helmets

Now, I dont remember if the standard body is shared among your mercs/civilans/enemies... If so, unless you change the code, we have a major show stopper (at least regarding my idea).

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 17:11] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185109] Tue, 13 May 2008 18:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KeldorKatarn is currently offline KeldorKatarn

 
Messages:37
Registered:May 2006
Location: Germany
Whaaat? No more redshirts?? Crying or Very Sad That's blasphemy! j/k Wink

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #185111] Tue, 13 May 2008 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
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KeldorKatarn
Whaaat? No more redshirts?? Crying or Very Sad That's blasphemy! j/k Wink


nope, that

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185113] Tue, 13 May 2008 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JaM1977 is currently offline JaM1977

 
Messages:35
Registered:May 2007
finally somebody came with that idea!

Yes, standard soldiers shouldn't have armor,just helmets and some uniforms. On the other hand elites should be equipped with best stuff.

is it possible to give elites different equipment as it goes for other? isn't it currently in one file?

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 18:25] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185114] Tue, 13 May 2008 18:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Majek is currently offline Majek

 
Messages:437
Registered:January 2003
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no redshirts no ja Sad

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185115] Tue, 13 May 2008 18:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1159
Registered:October 2005
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How about red arm-bands, yellow, black. Smile Or helmets if they wear any or bandana's if they don't. Or........

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185118] Tue, 13 May 2008 19:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
how about we get Armani or Gaultier to design a little something :venus: :openmouth:

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185120] Tue, 13 May 2008 19:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BallerDave

 
Messages:72
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

how about we stop this sarkasm and stop behaving like children?

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185122] Tue, 13 May 2008 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Who says Arulco Army cannot have red uniforms? But those must look like uniforms, not T-shirts!
PS: The bandana idea is already used in one of those scrapped JA3 projects.

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 19:32] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185123] Tue, 13 May 2008 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
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if we call for 3d models, why don't we scream for individual skinning?

IF the anims engine gets re-written, which i think is necessary for the new GFX the way i understand it, then i see little need to maintain the same "palette-fills-blanket-colors" system that is in place right now in every instance.

what keeps somebody who'd build up in lisac's works to simply reskin his model and re-render the different scenes according to the steps lisac had already taken? i think the very hard initial work by lisac could help follow-up designers to make their own versions of custom models/ skins.

there would have to be a way to add them to the game though. I think the new engine whatsoever it should be "open" to such amendments.





the idea how the generate dozens of different uniforms has been brought to the plate a long time ago, it would be using a system similar to current camouflage effect but limited to the bodypart where the item causing the camo-like effect is worn, you'd get uniform depending on what characters wear with only a slight modification of how it currently works.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185130] Tue, 13 May 2008 20:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JaM1977 is currently offline JaM1977

 
Messages:35
Registered:May 2007
just make them look like soldiers and not like a basketball team...

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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185131] Tue, 13 May 2008 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
nahh... soldiers usually look very boring and totally anti-cinematic


ideally, enemies would look like thugs (early on) and later on like soldiers while Mercs would have more or less individual looks. I mean flo wouldn't look like a soldier. Neither would haywire or bubba. The sleeveless shirts might actually fit these characters better than any uniform ever would

ever counted how many of the ja2 mercs truly have a military background (explicitly)? i think it's a minority especially if we consider MERC and the RPC's.

focussing ont he military theme seems a mistake IMO. Ja2 lives of how original and diverse their characters are and conveniently distances itself from the ever boring generic-soldier characters most combat-oriented games unfortunately restrict themselves to.


but i guess nothing would keep innovative people from doing additional work after the sheer "redesign" has been finished.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185133] Tue, 13 May 2008 21:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JaM1977 is currently offline JaM1977

 
Messages:35
Registered:May 2007
i was talking about Yelow/Red/Gray shirts... I'm fine with how Mercs looks, just those unmilitary collors drive me crazy... Very Happy why we dont replace them with Green/Khaki/Grey instead?

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Private 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185135] Tue, 13 May 2008 21:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3721
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
how about we stop this sarkasm and stop behaving like children?


nyah , nyah :blah:

anyway , there's a c in sarcasm..... :/

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Captain

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185138] Tue, 13 May 2008 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
I was reffering to ENEMY bodies too. But as I said, I am not totally sure they are two separate entities, my days of JA2 modding have ended years ago.


But ideally, if someone could externalize the code that controls the animation used for a specific merc (if I remember well there are only a few archetypes now, like STRONG, NORMAL, THIN), you could model a complete new look. Make Flo wear something to match ther IQ... give Ivan a Soviet army uniform, etc...

Speaking as a modder, I would love to be able to make bodies that fit the storyline. Like ragtag somalese milita for an African mod or nicaraguan rebels look for something placed in Latin America.

EDIT: Did some googling after modern mercenary "looks":

http://graphics7.nytimes.com/images/2004/04/04/weekinreview/Glanz583.jpg

http://ocap.ca/files/easterndoormasked.jpg

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 22:27] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185140] Tue, 13 May 2008 22:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1159
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
I like the James Bond suit look. Smile)))))))))


Edit: You could have different colored ties for different merc levels. Smile))))))

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:00] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185141] Tue, 13 May 2008 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BallerDave

 
Messages:72
Registered:April 2008
Location: Ze land of ze sheep, Dubl...

Marlboro Man
Edit: You could have different colored ties for different merc levels. Smile))))))


lol. arent we getting ahead of ourselves with ties?

i like the idea of the individual merc looks, still i think that armor should be visible when worn. otherwise its just foolish to assume that a money-making and self-respecting mercenary would leave the house without armor

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Corporal
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185142] Tue, 13 May 2008 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@ MM - Lol I was sure one of you jokers would say that Very Happy But the posibilities are endless. You dont even have to search for ideas, the people have already added different looks thru inventory items, they just dont show up in game.

EDIT: Lol, the bald one on the right does look like he's carrying a weapon on his back ,doesnt he? hehe...

[Updated on: Tue, 13 May 2008 23:13] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185153] Wed, 14 May 2008 01:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
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Registered:August 2006
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guys, all that is fine and dandy. but let

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185163] Wed, 14 May 2008 02:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
Messages:1159
Registered:October 2005
Location: USA
I say. Bring all idea's to the front now, while it's all fresh in everyone's minds.

Besides, I know Lisac's work is going to be good. And having thoughts and idea's floating aound now may help in the process as well, and may help from having to back-track. Gee I wish I would have thought of that earlier, ah well, too late now.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 02:44] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major

Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics – Sprites[message #185164] Wed, 14 May 2008 02:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mauser is currently offline Mauser

 
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if you say so Marlman.

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First Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185218] Wed, 14 May 2008 19:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
I've been re-modeling the Gina for a few hours and adjusted the rig a bit, here's how it looks like now:
http://img378.imageshack.us/img378/7310/comparerj3.png

I'll finish the first "regular" animation set soon (F_BRETH2), so everyone can test it in-game.

[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 19:07] by Moderator

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185221] Wed, 14 May 2008 19:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Oh, cannot wait Smile looks like you added nice details to the weapon.

Btw, I've tried storming my memory about the content of Anims.slf and there ARE separate animations for enemies. Actually the animations are divided like this:

3 male sets - used by mercs and RPCs like terrorists
3 female sets - used by mercs and RPCs like Queen
a couple of civilian we can ignore so far
a couple for misc stuff like robot, bugs and vehicles
3 sets for each type of militia
3 sets for each type of enemy
(*) might be an extra set for Hicks faction

Now... if i could find SLF Explore and check this... But if I am right it looks good.

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185227] Wed, 14 May 2008 19:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Majek is currently offline Majek

 
Messages:437
Registered:January 2003
Location: Slovenia
Use Dragon UnPACKer 5 to extract .slf files if you can't find SLF explore Smile

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Master Sergeant
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185232] Wed, 14 May 2008 20:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia

@majek - thanks for the idea, great tool.

Well I was wrong it seems. Anims.sfl has this:

- ANIMALS
- CIVS
- CORPSES
- F_MERC
- M_MERC
- S_MERC
- MONSTERS
- VEHICLES

There are some variations inside F/S/M merc files, but I cannot remember which is which. I'll look into it tonight. So far looks like JA2 uses the same 3 body frames (female, strong male and normal male) for all RPCs, with color variations (stored elsewhere) for factions and stuff.

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185237] Wed, 14 May 2008 21:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the scorpion

 
Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH
yes it does

only bodytype (which is not really a bodytype in its own right but just a flag for some anims) restricted to the player only is the big male badass.

for the past couple o' years i was hoping that the big male badass "flag" would be changed to a bodytype in its own right so a new type can be used (independantly from the the Big Male)


interestingly, not all differences between big male and big male bad ass are actually implemented.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185239] Wed, 14 May 2008 21:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria

Again, red pixels of hair are being recognised as blood (and accordingly to that drawn in red ccolour by the engine). This problem is caused by the palette colour values, simply because the red "blood" nuances come before the red "hair" nuances, so during the conversion of the new sprites the pixels take rather the value before, than the one coming later. I already got a solution for it, don't worry... :doctor:

On the other note, the current sprite is a bit too tall comparing to the old one, right? I'm rendering the next (fixed) version right now, this shall be eliminated soon too. Also, the new sprite shall have a "belt" of some sort, I think it might look better for the characters lie Raven, where both the shirt and the pants are in the same colour. I've noticed the male characters already have one of those, so...

Also, I'm about to suggest a new naming convention (which is close to the old one), keep an eye for the updated design document! :animread:

@Shanga:
My current idea is to let the engine paint the base sprite - the body - as it does right now, and later we'll add more layers (vest, helmet, weapon...) which could be, *but don't have to be* painted by the JA2 graphics engine as well. this way the mercs and the soldiers won't look like tourists, I guess.

About the individual properties of mercs... One layer shall be assigned for HAIR/BEARD only, so in conjunction with the specific colours and the body type each merc already owns, it should be enough to make them at least a bit different than the "generics."

[Updated on: Sat, 22 October 2022 03:37] by Moderator

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Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185241] Wed, 14 May 2008 22:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
The work looks very good. I am looking forward to the 'blood' being cleaned from the hair.

Could it be possible to add a long sleeved layer to just the arms so we could depict actual military looking uniforms?

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Sergeant Major
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185244] Wed, 14 May 2008 22:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3482
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
@lisac - well if that can be done...mmmm... champagne is in order. I mean if we could paint more than one layer over the default bodytype that is... mindblowing. Will keep an eye open for the design document as you said, you seem to have a damn good plan in mind. If you somehow could link inventory slots to these new layers, that means we could see dynamicly loaded armour/clothes?

Like Buns in the famous "Swimsuit Edition" that was never published? Now if that doesnt drive JA2 modding forward I don't know what....

[Updated on: Wed, 14 May 2008 22:49] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185245] Wed, 14 May 2008 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lisac is currently offline lisac

 
Messages:92
Registered:July 2006
Location: Austria
Khor1255
The work looks very good. I am looking forward to the 'blood' being cleaned from the hair.

In a few hours... :scan:

Khor1255
Could it be possible to add a long sleeved layer to just the arms so we could depict actual military looking uniforms?

Yes. What, you're working on an antarctic mod?

Khor1255
If you somehow could link inventory slots to these new layers, that means we could see dynamicly loaded armour/clothes?

That's right. However, I can't do [code] it myself. But I know a guy who could...

Khor1255
Like Buns in the famous "Swimsuit Edition" that was never published? Now if that doesnt drive JA2 modding forward I don't know what...

Watch out for Majek!

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Improving Original JA2 graphics [message #185246] Wed, 14 May 2008 23:42 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Khor1255 is currently offline Khor1255

 
Messages:1817
Registered:August 2003
Location: Pleasantville, NJ
Wow. I don't even remember saying that last bit.

Thanx for the answers.

As for the long sleeved animations, they are fitting to just about every military uniform I can think of. They would really come in handy for my project because Nazis in tank tops just don't seem right.

Now, if we could link animations to what is in the inventory we could really see some cool depictions of different uniform types even on sprites of this size. That would add a lot to the feel of my mod and I think it would look better for a lot of applications.

For instance, on snow maps I always found the sleeveless sprites very out of place. It would have been cool if they would have at least fixed the sprites for UB but this approach has way more potential.

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Sergeant Major
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