Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » New CTH system - Presentation
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261599]
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Sat, 04 September 2010 23:08
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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@ mtb:
Pistols, Machine Pistols and all other one-handed weapons get 2 clicks.
Two-handed SMGs, LMGs and Shotguns get 3 clicks,
Rifles with range below 50 tiles get 4,
Rifles with more than 50 tiles of range and Sniper Rifles with less than 50 get 6,
Sniper rifles with more than 50 tiles of range get 8.
Reflex sights lower the number of clicks available by 1. Folding stocks increase it by one.
This is far from optimal, of course, because it's based on old HAM code (dynamic aim levels) which reads only the gun's class and range. Optimally, we'll have a tag that allows modders to set the basic aim level for the gun themselves (8 is still the upper limit, of course). That is currently not available in HAM, but shouldn't be difficult to implement. The problem, as always, is the extra XML work.
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261619]
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Sun, 05 September 2010 06:21
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:Together with NAS this should greatly expand the number of attachments possible(and necessary)in 1.13.
Well, IMHO it's an even trade. NAS actually allows reducing the number of possible attachments in a way. Instead of having all sorts of combo attachments, which were originally introduced to 1.13 to save attachment space, you now can simply install a larger variety of attachments on the same gun. On the other hand, as Smeagol found out not long ago, you can also add attachments that previously were "built-into" a weapon's statistics - like he did with stocks (both the folding and the REGULAR kind).
NCTH, however, isn't really about increasing the number of attachments. It offers opportunities, but I don't think it increases the demand for new ones - the existing ones are quite enough in both OCTH and NCTH, in my humble opinion. I guess the only way to find out would be to see what modders do with NCTH - assuming they can learn to mod the XML for it - it's quite a complex system.
Fortunately, for players it shouldn't be that complex. Assuming, of course, that the CTH indicator works as it should
One thing that will definitely be added is a 20x scope for the really big rifles (Erma...). The current sniper scope (10x) will not be powerful enough to hit targets beyond 90 or so tiles.[/EDIT]
Quote:Do you plan to expand the dynamic aim levels calculation to include stances,weather,dynamic click costs?
Yes and no. Right now, aiming level modifiers work based on stance - like many other new modifiers in NCTH. Even a bipod is really nothing more than a set of modifiers that are based on stance (works only when prone), and now we'll be able to do similar things with other attachments. However, as far as affecting aiming through other things, there are plenty of other modifiers which are better for it. The only thing that Aiming Levels are supposed to emulate is the time it takes the shooter to stabilize the gun to the best of its (the gun's) ability. Weather, for instance, would not increase the time it takes - it should decrease the maximum stability you can have. That's achieved through aiming modifiers (negative ones) that reduce the effect of each click, effectively reducing the maximum CTH you can reach.
As I said, it's a complex system - but if modders can learn to understand it, the potential behind it is huge.
----------------------------------
Another thing about scopes:
I'm feeling comfortable enough with NCTH now to think about making the scope system slightly better. Everyone's been asking for variable-focus scopes, that can change their magnification level as required. For the past couple of weeks I've been considering this, and I'm not sure whether I should tackle it now or later, but I've got a pretty good idea of two solutions:
Scopes with several different magnification levels defined
Instead of having one set level per scope, we could have, say, a maximum of three different "settings" per scope. Defined in the XML the same way (three of the same tag), the game then automatically picks the one that's closest to the range-to-target (and hence, best for the current shot).
To make it a little more realistic, I might be able to store a variable that tracks the last magnification the gun was fired with. If the new one is different, there's an extra AP cost for firing with the new magnification.
This solution is not without problems. But it may work if I put my mind to it.
Self-altering items
This is one idea that came to me a few weeks ago. It is a little cumbersome, and maybe a little much for modders, though I think it has merit. It's definitely more streamlined than the above method.
In the EDB, or possibly another interface, we have a button for "Manipulate item". It has the symbol of a gear on it. It only appears when enabled for an item.
Once clicked, the button transforms the item into another item. This is done automatically, and possibly with a certain AP cost associated with it.
The transformation is defined in a separate XML file. This file (probably called "Transformations.XML" or somesuch) lists each transformable item, and the item it would turn to if the button is clicked. Again, it's possible to add a specific AP cost to the transformation here.
There are several possible applications for this idea, if it can be made to work. It can solve various problems that we've been facing for a long time.
Here's a list of several things you could do with this, off the top of my head:
- Variable states for items.
As mentioned above, we could have scopes that change their magnification factor. A 4x scope - click the button - it's a 7x scope. All other properties are the same, possibly even the item's image. Except the mag factor, which is increased. The transformation takes a scant few APs. We also set up the "return journey" - the new item (the 7x scope) also shows a "Gear" button, which when clicked transforms the item back to its original form (a 4x scope). You can keep clicking as long as you have APs.
This can be used to make true folding stocks, flashlights that can be turned on and off, god knows what else. - Thrown explosives.
The main problem with explosives is that the only way to arm them is to set them on a tile. With the help of the "gear" button, we could "ARM" the explosive manually, turning it into a similarly-powerful grenade (with the same item image). The grenade is then thrown to create the same explosion as the normal bomb. This could even be used to bypass the JA2 bomb arming mechanism and create explosives that can be set to radio channels or time delay without being placed down.
And suing the two-state idea above - we can have the Gear button on the new item transform it back to a regular bomb. - Merged item separation.
One of the oldest problems in JA2: items that you merge cannot be unmerged. A button may solve that - assuming it is accompanied by a "MergeSeparations.XML" that tells the game what items to create instead of the separated one. - Bayonette?
We CAN have guns merging with knives to create a new melee item - but then what turns it back? The gear button, of course. It unmerges the gun and the bayonette, turning the gun back into a firearm.
Oh I could go on and on.
[list][*]
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261624]
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Sun, 05 September 2010 09:17
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alph |
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Messages:8
Registered:January 2010 Location: China |
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In my opinion, if there were to be a manipulate item function, the best place for the button would be a small hand or maybe cog icon in the corner of the right and left hand inventory slots.
And this is definitely a feature that *should* be included. Where on the to do list it goes is debatable. Though presumably, it would be better to group everything that requires xml work into as few updates as possible so all the item updates can be done at once..
As far as scopes go, and all the different bonuses and penalties involved, I'm a little worried that knowing which scope to choose, or figuring out where to shoot from depending on what scope you have, will be fairly difficult without a reasonably informative and intuitive feedback mechanism. Maybe [F] could display minimum non-penalized gun scope range(in tiles), along with the currently displayed bullet range. Actually that would probably be good enough(along with the same tile-distance displayed in the description box maybe); not that hard really. Is that a possibility? I assume each magnification level is a set number of tiles, which should make generating the tile ranges trivial.
Also, if switching scopes will become a more frequent necessity, will the UDB display any info on minimum mech skills required to change scopes without damage? Or is that fairly close to zero anyway?
And I asked about this before but maybe you missed it: Do you know if backpacks have different stats (movement penalties, open/drop ap costs) and if so could those be displayed in the UDB? No is a perfectly reasonable answer.
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Private
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261645]
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Sun, 05 September 2010 15:24
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alph |
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Messages:8
Registered:January 2010 Location: China |
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Quote: unscrewing a mount is not exactly rocket science, is that really necessary?
I don't know, that's why I asked. Reality and the JA2 modeled version of reality are two different things. I know that adding and removing attachments causes wear and tear on them. The amount of damage is regulated by mech skill and presumably some sort of inherent item statistic. Guns damaged below, I believe, a percentage equal to the Merc's marksmanship skill have firing penalties. I assume the same would be true for high-precision optics which need to be, well, precise. Therefore any small amount of equipment damage for a character with high marksmanship is going to presumably have an effect. Now if no one will ever damage a gun or scope in any way by combining or seperating them, even if their mech skill is 0, then it doesn't matter, I can happily have my 0 mech sniper carry around multiple scopes and switch them all the time without worry; but that's information I don't currently have. If however I need a skill of 35 or something to swap scopes properly maybe I will make/choose a sniper with better mechanical skill or avoid changing attachments all the time. It's not a hugely important question but it is information I would like to have.
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Private
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261646]
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Sun, 05 September 2010 15:32
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ko5ma |
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Messages:35
Registered:January 2010 Location: Poland |
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Wait, what? Attachments don't get degraded, unless you define and and fail the skill check - usually that's only used for explosives and such. Most of my IMPs have mech 0, and i never had any problems with regular attachments.
...Or am i missing something?
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Private 1st Class
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261651]
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Sun, 05 September 2010 16:30
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:As far as scopes go, and all the different bonuses and penalties involved, I'm a little worried that knowing which scope to choose, or figuring out where to shoot from depending on what scope you have, will be fairly difficult without a reasonably informative and intuitive feedback mechanism. Maybe [F] could display minimum non-penalized gun scope range(in tiles), along with the currently displayed bullet range. Actually that would probably be good enough(along with the same tile-distance displayed in the description box maybe); not that hard really. Is that a possibility? I assume each magnification level is a set number of tiles, which should make generating the tile ranges trivial.
Optimal Scope range = Mag Factor * Normal Distance (7 tiles).
Mag Factor is clearly displayed in the description box, and Normal Distance is an INI-set constant. I could add something to the F button, but I'd rather not have a redundant second property displayed in the description box, for space-related concerns.
Quote:Also, if switching scopes will become a more frequent necessity, will the UDB display any info on minimum mech skills required to change scopes without damage? Or is that fairly close to zero anyway?
I don't think attaching/unattaching scopes requires any skill - at least not at the moment.
Quote:And I asked about this before but maybe you missed it: Do you know if backpacks have different stats (movement penalties, open/drop ap costs) and if so could those be displayed in the UDB? No is a perfectly reasonable answer.
No - they don't have different stats. Maybe the AP cost should be displayed in a tooltip for the open/drop buttons (isn't it?).
Quote:The only problem i see in relation to scopes is that in case of "zoom" optics (say 3-9x) we'd need either some sort of a slider (and linear scaling between 3x and 9x stats), or multiple state points (e.g. 3x, 4x, 5x etc).
I don't think a slider is necessary - you could do the same thing with "next transform"/"prev transform" buttons. Or just force players to loop through the possible states. I'm always trying to converse interface space where I can (because it always runs out when I want to do something cool )
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261826]
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Tue, 07 September 2010 00:37
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Sleicher |
Messages:3
Registered:September 2009 |
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I also vote for automatic scope ajustment and I think an extra aimlevel for those scopes might be a good downside representing the extra time needed to ajust the scope.
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Civilian
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261961]
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Wed, 08 September 2010 10:51
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mtb20 |
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Messages:14
Registered:September 2010 |
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Perhaps i am mixing in some real life issues here that didnt make it in the game mechanics(and you'll have to excuse my ignorance) but aiming for the head or legs (targets smaller than the center of mass-torso) would require a higher magnification to stay as accurate(have the same "cth"). In game terms this would translate as a multiplier to normal distance?
More to the point: Adding variable magnification scopes could not only allow engaging targets at various distances but also negating(at the cost of one aim click-and if the scope is good enough) the penalties of the soldier to soldier LOS...thing.Am i getting this right?
[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 11:36] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261975]
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Wed, 08 September 2010 17:13
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Minty |
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Messages:110
Registered:July 2009 Location: UK |
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MTB20, the way I read it is that with NCTH, there won't have to be separate modifiers for aiming at the head/legs, because each of the different bodyparts has it's own size already predefined in the .JSD files (I think).
Say your aiming reticle is 50 pixels in diameter and a human is also 50 pixels tall (Numbers drawn randomly from a hat. No game-accuracy intended). Torso at 20x20, head at 10x10, legs at 20x20, whatever.
Immediately you're penalised for trying specifically for a headshot, as if you centred your reticle on the head you'd only be capable of hitting the head or upper torso. AND You'd be far less likely to actually hit the head, as it's a smaller target, and only 20% (Or whatever) of your reticle is actually covering any part of the target.
[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 17:16] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261986]
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Wed, 08 September 2010 19:32
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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That's why we're talking about variable magnification. Also, for static-magnification scopes, what you describe IS REALITY.
---------------------------------------
PROGRESS UPDATE
The merger between NCTH and 1.13 SVN has been completed. Aside from a few smaller visual niggles with the Shopkeeper UDB display (which will be solved at some later time), the HAM 4.0 code is now ready for basic Alpha testing.
One issue that is somewhat troubling is the fact that, when making NCTH, I was not counting on STOMP. So for the moment, NCTH probably kills some of STOMP's traits thanks to stripping them out of the CTH system. This will probably affect the more "shooting-oriented" STOMP traits. So, Sandro, if you want to help on this, let me know.
Other than that, there's still work to be done with the Items.XML. All attachments have already been done, it's just a matter of adding their effects to weapons that are supposed to have them "built in".
Which begs another question: How are built-in attachments done now that NAS is in the XML? I mean, in the "normal" attachment system, the properties are placed directly into the weapon's Items.XML entry. In NAS there's really no reason to do that - there's plenty of room for attachments to be added normally, no?
Anyhow, I'm going to use the old way first, then deal with NAS as it comes. So once the Items.XML is complete, NCTH testing will officially begin.
------------------------
Also, Happy New Year!! :party:
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262746]
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Thu, 16 September 2010 10:50
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GMV |
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Messages:79
Registered:August 2010 Location: The Netherlands |
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A question came to my mind due to testing thread.
Someone noticed trouble in shooting someone in the head that came around a corner during an interrupt.
Now, I like the idea that moving short distances indeed makes it hard to hit someone (and longer runs it is easier again), but than with the remark in mind, I was hit with the question. Do they get this bonus also when walking i.e. 4 tiles to get around the corner?
This seems a bit odd in the way that you are focussed on the corner, and did not fire at the soldier that now moved from your previous aiming position.
I may be mistaken, if that is already implemented, or if it is impossible, but why not calculate this bonus from only at a certain tiles away from the merc or from the first point you shoot at the soldier? NCTH seemingly already makes it harder to hit soldiers, but it would be quiet frustrating that if you sit there ready to hit anyone coming around the corner focussed on this and you can only miss because of 4 tiles movement - for these first tiles do not matter for how you aim, it remains the same point.
Just a thought.
HeadrockWhich begs another question: How are built-in attachments done now that NAS is in the XML? I mean, in the "normal" attachment system, the properties are placed directly into the weapon's Items.XML entry. In NAS there's really no reason to do that - there's plenty of room for attachments to be added normally, no?
Even with NAS on some guns do not have stock attachments, presumably as they are part of the weapon. Now seeing I am not playing without AIM, I am not sure which is a 1.13 weapon and which not, but an example are the (steyr) AUG weapons. You may want to see how this is handled for your dilemma on that matter.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 September 2010 10:54] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262769]
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Thu, 16 September 2010 14:50
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Headrock |
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Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:Do they get this bonus also when walking i.e. 4 tiles to get around the corner?[...]
Unfortunately, there's no easy way to calculate being ready for a moving enemy to appear. The way I have it working now is that target movement penalties are based on the distance the target has travelled since the start of its turn, and I think that if I changed it to "from the first moment it was spotted" would cause all sorts of exploits (not to mention inconsistencies) regarding that penalty. Yes, that does make interrupts around corners a little more difficult.
There's several things you can do to hit the target anyway:
A) Aim. The better aimed you are, the less penalty you suffer. A well-aimed shot will hit the target despite its movement. At the distances usually involved when shooting an enemy coming around a corner (I.E. a few tiles), a light CQB weapon (like a pistol or small SMG) can reach very high aiming values. A rifle, on the other hand, can't. That's actually both intentional and realistic.
B) Burst and autofire. Assuming you can control the gun you're firing. Only the first bullet obeys target tracking penalties - so with a longer volley you can hit the target as easily as you would any other target (except for the initial penalty, which usually puts the first bullet further away from the target, making it a little more difficult to bring the rest of the volley at the target).
C) Shotguns, preferably with chokes. For all the obvious reasons.
Again, if you can come up with a workable solution that wouldn't take insane amounts of programming, I could try to implement it. However please remember that (1) we don't have a way to tell our soldier to "aim here and be ready for enemies coming into this tile" and (2) any solution has to take into account possible exploits that may arise when the target is simply moving without emerging around corners or obstacles.
Quote:Even with NAS on some guns do not have stock attachments, presumably as they are part of the weapon. Now seeing I am not playing without AIM, I am not sure which is a 1.13 weapon and which not, but an example are the (steyr) AUG weapons. You may want to see how this is handled for your dilemma on that matter.
Ko5ma and myself have considered using a system of stocks similar or based on Smeagol's "solid stock" attachments, where the gun itself has NO stock, giving penalties and bonuses similar but greater than what we currently have for folding stocks. Then, when a solid stock is installed (by default) on the weapon, its regains its "original" stats. A folding stock only offsets part of those penalties/bonuses.
It's said to work fine in AIM (haven't tried AIM-NAS yet).
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262771]
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Thu, 16 September 2010 16:05
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GMV |
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Messages:79
Registered:August 2010 Location: The Netherlands |
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Well all I can think of (which still has exploits) is to remove the penalty within the "iron sights", but that may still lead to unrealistic stuff (I am not familiar with how hard it is to make a snapshot/shoot from the hip with a rifle).
Or to calculate waiting/aiming... well how about a bonus To-Hit when not having moved at all the previous round, or not having used any AP? Is that doable? Will also aid snipers, I know, but isn't that also realistic?
I guess people should keep those small pistols/SMGs to guard other people (tend to use the Valmet (of AIM) or FN-FAL for that now).
As for AIM-NAS. Well, Smeagol can tell you better of course, but what I meant is you have two weapons in AIM-NAS when looking to attachments:
Guns that accept stocks & Those that don't (duh... I know). For the first category you have guns that suffer for this (Itacha 34 shotgun, being inaccurate i.c. to other shotguns but quick on the draw and to fire) (cat. I) or guns that due to their design have a build-in stock like the Steyr AUG for instance (cat. II).
The second category falls into two categories apart: Firearms that have build-in stocks which can be replaced for i.e. folding stocks (many assault rifles have this for example)- sometimes not replacable (Some guns only take SAW or Sniper stock attachments) - (cat. III) and those that do not have a build-in stock, but can be added (SMGs have this a lot) (cat. IV).
That are the full range of stock types of guns. Thus it depends heavily on the weapon itself " how much build-in" the stock is. Thus if it is replacable give it indeed a standard stock that comes with the weapon to put it back to "original" stats, but which you can replace for i.e. a folding stock, and if a stock can not be taken from a weapon like cat. II weapons than let a gun of that category always have its "original" stats (like cat. I also has). Still Smeagol can give you more info on this of course. Hope it helps though.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 September 2010 16:09] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal
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Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262772]
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Thu, 16 September 2010 17:10
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alph |
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Messages:8
Registered:January 2010 Location: China |
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You could just add a distance coefficient to the tracking penalty. I.E. the closer the target is to you, the less the movement tracking penalty is. In addition to helping on corners I think it would make the penalty more realistic in general since it seems like it would be quite a bit easier to follow something that is 20 yards away than something moving around 50 yards away.
I also like the idea of a bonus for zero movement before trigger pull on any given turn. Basically you aren't aiming at the target, the target just happened to either run into or already be where you have your gun pointed. Maybe a free aiming click would be realistic.
[Updated on: Thu, 16 September 2010 17:11] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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