Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab  » New CTH system - Presentation
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261590] Sat, 04 September 2010 21:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
[quote=Headrock]Quote:
FEWER IS BETTER now


Speaking of which(clicks that is)how many will you give us conceptually...speaking Smile(in the worst case scenario)?

Btw: hello everybody

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261592] Sat, 04 September 2010 21:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3199
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
that is what i call a FIRST POST

welcome to the pit

Report message to a moderator

Captain
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261594] Sat, 04 September 2010 21:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
that is what i call a FIRST POST

welcome to the pit


Thank you and I "thank the 'pit" for hosting such a great mod and dedicated community.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261599] Sat, 04 September 2010 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
@ mtb:

Pistols, Machine Pistols and all other one-handed weapons get 2 clicks.
Two-handed SMGs, LMGs and Shotguns get 3 clicks,
Rifles with range below 50 tiles get 4,
Rifles with more than 50 tiles of range and Sniper Rifles with less than 50 get 6,
Sniper rifles with more than 50 tiles of range get 8.

Reflex sights lower the number of clicks available by 1. Folding stocks increase it by one.

This is far from optimal, of course, because it's based on old HAM code (dynamic aim levels) which reads only the gun's class and range. Optimally, we'll have a tag that allows modders to set the basic aim level for the gun themselves (8 is still the upper limit, of course). That is currently not available in HAM, but shouldn't be difficult to implement. The problem, as always, is the extra XML work.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261608] Sun, 05 September 2010 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
Got it. I guess all that remains is to wait for the alpha and then see which features make it into the xml editor. Together with NAS this should greatly expand the number of attachments possible(and necessary)in 1.13.
Do you plan to expand the dynamic aim levels calculation to include stances,weather,dynamic click costs?

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261619] Sun, 05 September 2010 06:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
Together with NAS this should greatly expand the number of attachments possible(and necessary)in 1.13.


Well, IMHO it's an even trade. NAS actually allows reducing the number of possible attachments in a way. Instead of having all sorts of combo attachments, which were originally introduced to 1.13 to save attachment space, you now can simply install a larger variety of attachments on the same gun. On the other hand, as Smeagol found out not long ago, you can also add attachments that previously were "built-into" a weapon's statistics - like he did with stocks (both the folding and the REGULAR kind).

NCTH, however, isn't really about increasing the number of attachments. It offers opportunities, but I don't think it increases the demand for new ones - the existing ones are quite enough in both OCTH and NCTH, in my humble opinion. I guess the only way to find out would be to see what modders do with NCTH - assuming they can learn to mod the XML for it - it's quite a complex system.

Fortunately, for players it shouldn't be that complex. Assuming, of course, that the CTH indicator works as it should Wink

One thing that will definitely be added is a 20x scope for the really big rifles (Erma...). The current sniper scope (10x) will not be powerful enough to hit targets beyond 90 or so tiles.[/EDIT]

Quote:
Do you plan to expand the dynamic aim levels calculation to include stances,weather,dynamic click costs?


Yes and no. Right now, aiming level modifiers work based on stance - like many other new modifiers in NCTH. Even a bipod is really nothing more than a set of modifiers that are based on stance (works only when prone), and now we'll be able to do similar things with other attachments. However, as far as affecting aiming through other things, there are plenty of other modifiers which are better for it. The only thing that Aiming Levels are supposed to emulate is the time it takes the shooter to stabilize the gun to the best of its (the gun's) ability. Weather, for instance, would not increase the time it takes - it should decrease the maximum stability you can have. That's achieved through aiming modifiers (negative ones) that reduce the effect of each click, effectively reducing the maximum CTH you can reach.

As I said, it's a complex system - but if modders can learn to understand it, the potential behind it is huge.

----------------------------------

Another thing about scopes:

I'm feeling comfortable enough with NCTH now to think about making the scope system slightly better. Everyone's been asking for variable-focus scopes, that can change their magnification level as required. For the past couple of weeks I've been considering this, and I'm not sure whether I should tackle it now or later, but I've got a pretty good idea of two solutions:

Scopes with several different magnification levels defined

Instead of having one set level per scope, we could have, say, a maximum of three different "settings" per scope. Defined in the XML the same way (three of the same tag), the game then automatically picks the one that's closest to the range-to-target (and hence, best for the current shot).

To make it a little more realistic, I might be able to store a variable that tracks the last magnification the gun was fired with. If the new one is different, there's an extra AP cost for firing with the new magnification.

This solution is not without problems. But it may work if I put my mind to it.

Self-altering items

This is one idea that came to me a few weeks ago. It is a little cumbersome, and maybe a little much for modders, though I think it has merit. It's definitely more streamlined than the above method.

In the EDB, or possibly another interface, we have a button for "Manipulate item". It has the symbol of a gear on it. It only appears when enabled for an item.

Once clicked, the button transforms the item into another item. This is done automatically, and possibly with a certain AP cost associated with it.

The transformation is defined in a separate XML file. This file (probably called "Transformations.XML" or somesuch) lists each transformable item, and the item it would turn to if the button is clicked. Again, it's possible to add a specific AP cost to the transformation here.

There are several possible applications for this idea, if it can be made to work. It can solve various problems that we've been facing for a long time.

Here's a list of several things you could do with this, off the top of my head:
  • Variable states for items.
    As mentioned above, we could have scopes that change their magnification factor. A 4x scope - click the button - it's a 7x scope. All other properties are the same, possibly even the item's image. Except the mag factor, which is increased. The transformation takes a scant few APs. We also set up the "return journey" - the new item (the 7x scope) also shows a "Gear" button, which when clicked transforms the item back to its original form (a 4x scope). You can keep clicking as long as you have APs. Very Happy
    This can be used to make true folding stocks, flashlights that can be turned on and off, god knows what else. Smile
  • Thrown explosives.
    The main problem with explosives is that the only way to arm them is to set them on a tile. With the help of the "gear" button, we could "ARM" the explosive manually, turning it into a similarly-powerful grenade (with the same item image). The grenade is then thrown to create the same explosion as the normal bomb. This could even be used to bypass the JA2 bomb arming mechanism and create explosives that can be set to radio channels or time delay without being placed down.
    And suing the two-state idea above - we can have the Gear button on the new item transform it back to a regular bomb.
  • Merged item separation.
    One of the oldest problems in JA2: items that you merge cannot be unmerged. A button may solve that - assuming it is accompanied by a "MergeSeparations.XML" that tells the game what items to create instead of the separated one.
  • Bayonette?
    We CAN have guns merging with knives to create a new melee item - but then what turns it back? The gear button, of course. It unmerges the gun and the bayonette, turning the gun back into a firearm.

Oh I could go on and on.

[list][*]

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261624] Sun, 05 September 2010 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alph is currently offline alph

 
Messages:8
Registered:January 2010
Location: China

In my opinion, if there were to be a manipulate item function, the best place for the button would be a small hand or maybe cog icon in the corner of the right and left hand inventory slots.

And this is definitely a feature that *should* be included. Where on the to do list it goes is debatable. Though presumably, it would be better to group everything that requires xml work into as few updates as possible so all the item updates can be done at once..

As far as scopes go, and all the different bonuses and penalties involved, I'm a little worried that knowing which scope to choose, or figuring out where to shoot from depending on what scope you have, will be fairly difficult without a reasonably informative and intuitive feedback mechanism. Maybe [F] could display minimum non-penalized gun scope range(in tiles), along with the currently displayed bullet range. Actually that would probably be good enough(along with the same tile-distance displayed in the description box maybe); not that hard really. Is that a possibility? I assume each magnification level is a set number of tiles, which should make generating the tile ranges trivial.

Also, if switching scopes will become a more frequent necessity, will the UDB display any info on minimum mech skills required to change scopes without damage? Or is that fairly close to zero anyway?

And I asked about this before but maybe you missed it: Do you know if backpacks have different stats (movement penalties, open/drop ap costs) and if so could those be displayed in the UDB? No is a perfectly reasonable answer.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261640] Sun, 05 September 2010 13:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
Self-altering items would be a VERY welcome addition. The only problem i see in relation to scopes is that in case of "zoom" optics (say 3-9x) we'd need either some sort of a slider (and linear scaling between 3x and 9x stats), or multiple state points (e.g. 3x, 4x, 5x etc). I see why it's a better solution than automatic selection though - variable tunnel vision penalty and vision range bonus when not shooting for example. True folding stocks, deployable bipods would be awesome as well.
EDIT: And if it could be combined with some sort of "scope selector" if you have multiple sights installed - i.e. use scope / use reflex / use irons... It'd be perfect Smile.

@Alph re changing scopes without damage - unscrewing a mount is not exactly rocket science, is that really necessary?

Report message to a moderator

Private 1st Class
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261645] Sun, 05 September 2010 15:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alph is currently offline alph

 
Messages:8
Registered:January 2010
Location: China
Quote:
unscrewing a mount is not exactly rocket science, is that really necessary?


I don't know, that's why I asked. Reality and the JA2 modeled version of reality are two different things. I know that adding and removing attachments causes wear and tear on them. The amount of damage is regulated by mech skill and presumably some sort of inherent item statistic. Guns damaged below, I believe, a percentage equal to the Merc's marksmanship skill have firing penalties. I assume the same would be true for high-precision optics which need to be, well, precise. Therefore any small amount of equipment damage for a character with high marksmanship is going to presumably have an effect. Now if no one will ever damage a gun or scope in any way by combining or seperating them, even if their mech skill is 0, then it doesn't matter, I can happily have my 0 mech sniper carry around multiple scopes and switch them all the time without worry; but that's information I don't currently have. If however I need a skill of 35 or something to swap scopes properly maybe I will make/choose a sniper with better mechanical skill or avoid changing attachments all the time. It's not a hugely important question but it is information I would like to have.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261646] Sun, 05 September 2010 15:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ko5ma

 
Messages:35
Registered:January 2010
Location: Poland
Wait, what? Attachments don't get degraded, unless you define and and fail the skill check - usually that's only used for explosives and such. Most of my IMPs have mech 0, and i never had any problems with regular attachments.

...Or am i missing something?

Report message to a moderator

Private 1st Class
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261648] Sun, 05 September 2010 16:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009
Most attachments don't degrade but there are several attachments which need to pass a skill check. This includes detonators, gun barrel extender and rod&spring.

Report message to a moderator

Lieutenant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261651] Sun, 05 September 2010 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
As far as scopes go, and all the different bonuses and penalties involved, I'm a little worried that knowing which scope to choose, or figuring out where to shoot from depending on what scope you have, will be fairly difficult without a reasonably informative and intuitive feedback mechanism. Maybe [F] could display minimum non-penalized gun scope range(in tiles), along with the currently displayed bullet range. Actually that would probably be good enough(along with the same tile-distance displayed in the description box maybe); not that hard really. Is that a possibility? I assume each magnification level is a set number of tiles, which should make generating the tile ranges trivial.


Optimal Scope range = Mag Factor * Normal Distance (7 tiles).

Mag Factor is clearly displayed in the description box, and Normal Distance is an INI-set constant. I could add something to the F button, but I'd rather not have a redundant second property displayed in the description box, for space-related concerns.

Quote:
Also, if switching scopes will become a more frequent necessity, will the UDB display any info on minimum mech skills required to change scopes without damage? Or is that fairly close to zero anyway?


I don't think attaching/unattaching scopes requires any skill - at least not at the moment.

Quote:
And I asked about this before but maybe you missed it: Do you know if backpacks have different stats (movement penalties, open/drop ap costs) and if so could those be displayed in the UDB? No is a perfectly reasonable answer.


No - they don't have different stats. Maybe the AP cost should be displayed in a tooltip for the open/drop buttons (isn't it?).

Quote:
The only problem i see in relation to scopes is that in case of "zoom" optics (say 3-9x) we'd need either some sort of a slider (and linear scaling between 3x and 9x stats), or multiple state points (e.g. 3x, 4x, 5x etc).


I don't think a slider is necessary - you could do the same thing with "next transform"/"prev transform" buttons. Or just force players to loop through the possible states. I'm always trying to converse interface space where I can (because it always runs out when I want to do something cool Razz )

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261666] Sun, 05 September 2010 17:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Madeiner is currently offline Madeiner

 
Messages:13
Registered:November 2008
Headrock
With the help of the "gear" button, we could "ARM" the explosive manually, turning it into a similarly-powerful grenade (with the same item image). The grenade is then thrown to create the same explosion as the normal bomb.


Uh... does that mean we can take gasket and arm a few TNTs set to explode after 1 round and run into the enemy outpost?

Mwahahahaha! I am SO gonna use it!

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261667] Sun, 05 September 2010 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
In theory. :devilaugh:

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261676] Sun, 05 September 2010 20:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
datakurs is currently offline datakurs

 
Messages:166
Registered:June 2009
Location: Budapest, Hungary
That would be definitely cool.
Explosives with timed detonators currently are quite useless (or extremely hard to use efficiently) in battles.

Report message to a moderator

Staff Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261728] Mon, 06 September 2010 11:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMV is currently offline GMV

 
Messages:79
Registered:August 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Personally, I would suggest a combination of the two solutions.
Point is that the second one (as it seems now) will cause for a huge amount of micro-management.
I would like to see a gear button and change items in that way when it comes to explosives and bayonette (for no ap change if a knife is already attached), but for scopes let them automatically change to the next best setting when targeting an enemy (with AP increase). Otherwise I see a scenario where you constantly need to save and load to see which setting is the best/or constantly need to check the distance and calculate which scope level is the best - I would really change this later automatically, but good call for different magnification levels on scopes. More realistic I reckon and needed in my opinion with NCTH.
20x scopes? 20x7 = 140. That means you have to shoot across almost the entire battlefield... I am happy when I can shoot at enemies over 1/3 to 1/2 of the map. After all, if shoot across the entire map, you are sure to be picked off in your flanks for you must have missed an enemy.


P.s. for the previous calculation that indeed that explained it well.

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261765] Mon, 06 September 2010 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Warthog is currently offline Warthog

 
Messages:5
Registered:September 2007
Is it possible to create a hotkey that, as you take aim you could use to adjust the scope to "optimal magnification"?
This would decrease the level of micromanagement and the precision of the adjustment could even be based on the skill of the shooter.

If you really wanted to set the level of magnification without an enemy around you could click on the ground and adjust the magnification according to that distance.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261768] Mon, 06 September 2010 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
Is it possible to create a hotkey that, as you take aim you could use to adjust the scope to "optimal magnification"?


That's a good idea. I'll consider this. Any free hotkeys that could be suitable?

Quote:
If you really wanted to set the level of magnification without an enemy around you could click on the ground and adjust the magnification according to that distance.


Or, give players a free automatic adjustment on the first shot after starting combat mode. When combat mode ends (back to real-time for whatever reason, including not seeing enemies), the counter resets and you get another free adjustment next time.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261773] Mon, 06 September 2010 20:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
I still think 'L' would be the most logical choice, maybe display AP cost in another color to avoid confusion? Like white for turning, red for readying and black for adjusting?

Report message to a moderator

Captain

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261811] Mon, 06 September 2010 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loucipher

 
Messages:157
Registered:October 2009
I second GMV's notion on automatic scope adjustment. This should simply cost APS and be done whenever necessary. Can you think of anyone of you ever firing a weapon with non-adjusted scope? No fighter who's right in his head would want to handicap himself that way. If I aim through a scope, I readjust it anytime I need so that I can aim at my target properly, let alone maximise hit chance.

Report message to a moderator

Staff Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261818] Mon, 06 September 2010 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wil473

 
Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada
As long as I am remembering correctly, low magnification combat scopes such as the 4x SUSAT, and ACOG if if I remember correctly are fixed magnification. The 1.5x scopes used on the AUG's certainly are fixed magnification.

Speaking of which, UC-1.13 beta testers earlier today brought up a few scope/sighting issues that I was hoping to resolve with NCTH. Though I should get some details for the planning work out of the way: the scope magnifications, integers or can I have 1.5x and 3.5x?

Are non-magnifying sights covered in this system?

[Updated on: Mon, 06 September 2010 23:40] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Lieutenant

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261826] Tue, 07 September 2010 00:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sleicher is currently offline Sleicher
Messages:3
Registered:September 2009
I also vote for automatic scope ajustment and I think an extra aimlevel for those scopes might be a good downside representing the extra time needed to ajust the scope.

Report message to a moderator

Civilian
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261829] Tue, 07 September 2010 00:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
As long as I am remembering correctly, low magnification combat scopes such as the 4x SUSAT, and ACOG if if I remember correctly are fixed magnification. The 1.5x scopes used on the AUG's certainly are fixed magnification.


Well, it'll be up to modders (I.E. YOU! Very Happy ) to decide which scopes are variable-power and which aren't...

Quote:
UC-1.13 beta testers earlier today brought up a few scope/sighting issues that I was hoping to resolve with NCTH. Though I should get some details for the planning work out of the way: the scope magnifications, integers or can I have 1.5x and 3.5x?


Decimal point. You can even go several digits deeper if you want Wink

Quote:
Are non-magnifying sights covered in this system?


As in reflex sights? Those are covered by the Projection Factor, like lasers.

Quote:
I also vote for automatic scope ajustment and I think an extra aimlevel for those scopes might be a good downside representing the extra time needed to ajust the scope.


Very interesting. That's actually going back to what I had installed in HAM 3, where the first aim click costs more when a scope is used. I'll have to think about this.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261890] Tue, 07 September 2010 18:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
Sleicher
...automatic scope ajustment ...


Note however that there is one possible situation when you have to use a very powerful scope at short(suboptimal) ranges: when the target is partially obscured(grass anyone?) and immobile(or slowly moving towards/away from you).Would be useless for leading the target tho...

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261924] Tue, 07 September 2010 23:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Loucipher

 
Messages:157
Registered:October 2009
I'm more interested in the algorithm the game would use to auto-adjust. If I get this right, this would mean checking whether or not the target is within the "adjustable" range band, and then computing optimal magnification which provides the smallest circle radius. Come to think of it, a daunting task in itself.

Report message to a moderator

Staff Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261929] Wed, 08 September 2010 00:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
Isnt this why Headrock did his little targeting study several pages back? Most(if not all) modern scopes are (designed to be used as) stadiametric rangefinders.

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261948] Wed, 08 September 2010 01:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
I already have a system in place to find the best scope based on range when there's more than one scope on the same weapon. The same system could be used to figure out which two of the same scope's magnification levels is best.

My formula is actually pretty simple - pick the scope that has the closest magnification factor to the one required for the shot. It's not a "scientific" way to go about it - there are some cases where this will lead to choosing the slightly -worse- scope for the shot, but then again mercs shouldn't be able to make such calculations anyway - they're more likely to get the better scope. Starting to finagle with aperture sizes in this case would be redundant (not to mention complicated to do).

So the bottom line is, if the range to target is 2.4x Normal Range, the shooter will pick the scope with the mag factor closest to 2.4 - or, with variable-level scopes, a 2.4x magnification mode.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261958] Wed, 08 September 2010 09:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
Then aiming for the head(legs) will act as a normal range multiplier? This would allow choosing a higher magnification(if one is available) and still staying accurate(unless the target is moving).

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261959] Wed, 08 September 2010 10:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Huh? I don't get how bodyparts have anything to do with this...

---------------------------

PROGRESS UPDATE

I am now in the final stages of merging HAM with the latest MP 1.13 (the cutting-edge version of 1.13). I'm having a few minor issues thanks to NAS having a will of its own, but for the moment things are pretty much coming to a close on that side.

In addition, Ko5ma has volunteered to update the XMLs, and has so far done an excellent job - creating a new Weapons.XML for the Alpha testing.

Once Items.XML is completed (should be soon), HAM will essentially be ready for Alpha testing.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261961] Wed, 08 September 2010 10:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
Perhaps i am mixing in some real life issues here that didnt make it in the game mechanics(and you'll have to excuse my ignorance) but aiming for the head or legs (targets smaller than the center of mass-torso) would require a higher magnification to stay as accurate(have the same "cth"). In game terms this would translate as a multiplier to normal distance?

More to the point: Adding variable magnification scopes could not only allow engaging targets at various distances but also negating(at the cost of one aim click-and if the scope is good enough) the penalties of the soldier to soldier LOS...thing.Am i getting this right?

[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 11:36] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261975] Wed, 08 September 2010 17:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Minty is currently offline Minty

 
Messages:110
Registered:July 2009
Location: UK
MTB20, the way I read it is that with NCTH, there won't have to be separate modifiers for aiming at the head/legs, because each of the different bodyparts has it's own size already predefined in the .JSD files (I think).

Say your aiming reticle is 50 pixels in diameter and a human is also 50 pixels tall (Numbers drawn randomly from a hat. No game-accuracy intended). Torso at 20x20, head at 10x10, legs at 20x20, whatever.

Immediately you're penalised for trying specifically for a headshot, as if you centred your reticle on the head you'd only be capable of hitting the head or upper torso. AND You'd be far less likely to actually hit the head, as it's a smaller target, and only 20% (Or whatever) of your reticle is actually covering any part of the target.

[Updated on: Wed, 08 September 2010 17:16] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261978] Wed, 08 September 2010 18:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
MTB20, the way I read it is that with NCTH, there won't have to be separate modifiers for aiming at the head/legs, because each of the different bodyparts has it's own size already predefined in the .JSD files (I think).


Yup.

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261983] Wed, 08 September 2010 18:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mtb20 is currently offline mtb20

 
Messages:14
Registered:September 2010
The thing that bugs me about this is that you will be able to engage targets at different distances,but not be able to engage one target at different magnifications...

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #261986] Wed, 08 September 2010 19:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
That's why we're talking about variable magnification. Also, for static-magnification scopes, what you describe IS REALITY.

---------------------------------------

PROGRESS UPDATE

The merger between NCTH and 1.13 SVN has been completed. Aside from a few smaller visual niggles with the Shopkeeper UDB display (which will be solved at some later time), the HAM 4.0 code is now ready for basic Alpha testing.

One issue that is somewhat troubling is the fact that, when making NCTH, I was not counting on STOMP. So for the moment, NCTH probably kills some of STOMP's traits thanks to stripping them out of the CTH system. This will probably affect the more "shooting-oriented" STOMP traits. So, Sandro, if you want to help on this, let me know.

Other than that, there's still work to be done with the Items.XML. All attachments have already been done, it's just a matter of adding their effects to weapons that are supposed to have them "built in".

Which begs another question: How are built-in attachments done now that NAS is in the XML? I mean, in the "normal" attachment system, the properties are placed directly into the weapon's Items.XML entry. In NAS there's really no reason to do that - there's plenty of room for attachments to be added normally, no?

Anyhow, I'm going to use the old way first, then deal with NAS as it comes. So once the Items.XML is complete, NCTH testing will officially begin.

------------------------

Also, Happy New Year!! :party:

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262392] Mon, 13 September 2010 00:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Alex_SPB is currently offline Alex_SPB

 
Messages:169
Registered:February 2008
Location: Russia, St.Petersburg
Headrock,

Congratulations with the alfpa release. I suppose that NCTH would be one of the largests steps forward 1.13 made ever. Sorry for diasapearing - real life issues (job promotion) totally erased my free time including nights and weekends. It is quite painfull for me to see the progress here without being able to participate. I would like to share several thoughts on the weapons setup and autofire balance.

Since Zilpin firstly published his mod i was playing around XML auto penalties values to balance the aimed auto fire and burst fire modes. In fact after release of DDD's mod I have newer played a game without the aimed autofire. I am quite an oldschool player (started with Deadly Games since it was released) and pay a lot of attention to the game balance. And I suppose I have found the receipt.

Firstly: the effective auto penalties of all the guns was doubled with average of 20% for 5.56 assault rifles. This means that the 5-th round had 0% probability under the old CTH.

Secondly: aimed burst had a maximum length of 5-6 rounds (against 12-15 of unaimed one) because of AP limitation (wasting all 100 AP available)

Due to the bug during the unaimed auto fire all the penalties remained intact (like in vanilla 1.13) so I had the opportunity to chose under which system I like to play. It turned out that in 70% of all the combat situations it was more beneficial to use the old aiming system (vanilla unaimed autofire) making long unaimed bursts hoping to hit the target with at least 1 round and massively suppress all other enemies. I used aimed bursts only in several special situations (as for examle a single dangereous threat that had to be killed within a single turn). In the majority of cases I used the old school (suprisingly for myself).

The real point of that story is that aimed burst should not be a balance-breaker at all (which it seems to be according to the first feedback). This should be achieved by tweaking the auto (burst) penalties and AP costs. Based on the description of the NCTH I see the following possible balance approach:

1) You choose a single shot while the enemy is close to the maximum distance (like 30-40 tiles for an M16) because of the recoil that moves you second bullet to far away from the target in the aimed autofire.

2) You choose a short aimed burst when you have to hit the target from 10 to 30 tiles (in case you are not outnumbered and do not have to suppress)

3) You make long aimed bursts either to reliably hit the target at close range (suppressing nearby targets) or for the suppression of the target at a long range.

4) You spray and pray with long unaimed bursts for the massive suppression at the relatively close range

5) You have a choice of 2 equally attractive opportunities: either to make a short aimed 2-3 round burst (before the recoil did not move you aim far away from the target) or a long aimed 7-10 round burst hoping to compensate the recoil with your own counter force (paying the extra bullets spend for the additional suppression effect). Both choices should lead to the roughly same result.

The base firing mode of AI should be a short 3-4 round controlled burst (like it is in the real combat). If it is possible the AI should use the algorithm stated above. Even if it is not possible the AI should still dig the player under the ground with the suppression effect making events like Drassen counterattack a real hell. In fact as the player is usually outnumbered by the enemy every combat should become a real challenge.

In order to achieve the game balance when all the firing modes are useful we might have to move from the realistic dispersion and auto penalty values to the gameplay - vise ones.

The post was moved from an Alpha thread

Report message to a moderator

Staff Sergeant
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262746] Thu, 16 September 2010 10:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMV is currently offline GMV

 
Messages:79
Registered:August 2010
Location: The Netherlands
A question came to my mind due to testing thread.
Someone noticed trouble in shooting someone in the head that came around a corner during an interrupt.
Now, I like the idea that moving short distances indeed makes it hard to hit someone (and longer runs it is easier again), but than with the remark in mind, I was hit with the question. Do they get this bonus also when walking i.e. 4 tiles to get around the corner?
This seems a bit odd in the way that you are focussed on the corner, and did not fire at the soldier that now moved from your previous aiming position.
I may be mistaken, if that is already implemented, or if it is impossible, but why not calculate this bonus from only at a certain tiles away from the merc or from the first point you shoot at the soldier? NCTH seemingly already makes it harder to hit soldiers, but it would be quiet frustrating that if you sit there ready to hit anyone coming around the corner focussed on this and you can only miss because of 4 tiles movement - for these first tiles do not matter for how you aim, it remains the same point.

Just a thought.

Headrock
Which begs another question: How are built-in attachments done now that NAS is in the XML? I mean, in the "normal" attachment system, the properties are placed directly into the weapon's Items.XML entry. In NAS there's really no reason to do that - there's plenty of room for attachments to be added normally, no?


Even with NAS on some guns do not have stock attachments, presumably as they are part of the weapon. Now seeing I am not playing without AIM, I am not sure which is a 1.13 weapon and which not, but an example are the (steyr) AUG weapons. You may want to see how this is handled for your dilemma on that matter.

[Updated on: Thu, 16 September 2010 10:54] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262769] Thu, 16 September 2010 14:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Headrock

 
Messages:1760
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem
Quote:
Do they get this bonus also when walking i.e. 4 tiles to get around the corner?[...]


Unfortunately, there's no easy way to calculate being ready for a moving enemy to appear. The way I have it working now is that target movement penalties are based on the distance the target has travelled since the start of its turn, and I think that if I changed it to "from the first moment it was spotted" would cause all sorts of exploits (not to mention inconsistencies) regarding that penalty. Yes, that does make interrupts around corners a little more difficult.

There's several things you can do to hit the target anyway:
A) Aim. The better aimed you are, the less penalty you suffer. A well-aimed shot will hit the target despite its movement. At the distances usually involved when shooting an enemy coming around a corner (I.E. a few tiles), a light CQB weapon (like a pistol or small SMG) can reach very high aiming values. A rifle, on the other hand, can't. That's actually both intentional and realistic.
B) Burst and autofire. Assuming you can control the gun you're firing. Only the first bullet obeys target tracking penalties - so with a longer volley you can hit the target as easily as you would any other target (except for the initial penalty, which usually puts the first bullet further away from the target, making it a little more difficult to bring the rest of the volley at the target).
C) Shotguns, preferably with chokes. For all the obvious reasons.

Again, if you can come up with a workable solution that wouldn't take insane amounts of programming, I could try to implement it. However please remember that (1) we don't have a way to tell our soldier to "aim here and be ready for enemies coming into this tile" and (2) any solution has to take into account possible exploits that may arise when the target is simply moving without emerging around corners or obstacles.

Quote:
Even with NAS on some guns do not have stock attachments, presumably as they are part of the weapon. Now seeing I am not playing without AIM, I am not sure which is a 1.13 weapon and which not, but an example are the (steyr) AUG weapons. You may want to see how this is handled for your dilemma on that matter.


Ko5ma and myself have considered using a system of stocks similar or based on Smeagol's "solid stock" attachments, where the gun itself has NO stock, giving penalties and bonuses similar but greater than what we currently have for folding stocks. Then, when a solid stock is installed (by default) on the weapon, its regains its "original" stats. A folding stock only offsets part of those penalties/bonuses.

It's said to work fine in AIM (haven't tried AIM-NAS yet).

Report message to a moderator

Sergeant Major

Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262771] Thu, 16 September 2010 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
GMV is currently offline GMV

 
Messages:79
Registered:August 2010
Location: The Netherlands
Well all I can think of (which still has exploits) is to remove the penalty within the "iron sights", but that may still lead to unrealistic stuff (I am not familiar with how hard it is to make a snapshot/shoot from the hip with a rifle).
Or to calculate waiting/aiming... well how about a bonus To-Hit when not having moved at all the previous round, or not having used any AP? Is that doable? Will also aid snipers, I know, but isn't that also realistic?
I guess people should keep those small pistols/SMGs to guard other people (tend to use the Valmet (of AIM) or FN-FAL for that now).

As for AIM-NAS. Well, Smeagol can tell you better of course, but what I meant is you have two weapons in AIM-NAS when looking to attachments:

Guns that accept stocks & Those that don't (duh... I know). For the first category you have guns that suffer for this (Itacha 34 shotgun, being inaccurate i.c. to other shotguns but quick on the draw and to fire) (cat. I) or guns that due to their design have a build-in stock like the Steyr AUG for instance (cat. II).
The second category falls into two categories apart: Firearms that have build-in stocks which can be replaced for i.e. folding stocks (many assault rifles have this for example)- sometimes not replacable (Some guns only take SAW or Sniper stock attachments) - (cat. III) and those that do not have a build-in stock, but can be added (SMGs have this a lot) (cat. IV).

That are the full range of stock types of guns. Thus it depends heavily on the weapon itself " how much build-in" the stock is. Thus if it is replacable give it indeed a standard stock that comes with the weapon to put it back to "original" stats, but which you can replace for i.e. a folding stock, and if a stock can not be taken from a weapon like cat. II weapons than let a gun of that category always have its "original" stats (like cat. I also has). Still Smeagol can give you more info on this of course. Hope it helps though.

[Updated on: Thu, 16 September 2010 16:09] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Corporal
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262772] Thu, 16 September 2010 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alph is currently offline alph

 
Messages:8
Registered:January 2010
Location: China
You could just add a distance coefficient to the tracking penalty. I.E. the closer the target is to you, the less the movement tracking penalty is. In addition to helping on corners I think it would make the penalty more realistic in general since it seems like it would be quite a bit easier to follow something that is 20 yards away than something moving around 50 yards away.

I also like the idea of a bonus for zero movement before trigger pull on any given turn. Basically you aren't aiming at the target, the target just happened to either run into or already be where you have your gun pointed. Maybe a free aiming click would be realistic.

[Updated on: Thu, 16 September 2010 17:11] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Private
Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #262773] Thu, 16 September 2010 17:21 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009
Alph
I think it would make the penalty more realistic in general since it seems like it would be quite a bit easier to follow something that is 20 yards away than something moving around 50 yards away.

Actually, not. It's a question of geometry and angle.
At longer ranges, you have to move your weapon less to track a target than you'd have at close range, given equal speed and distance for the targets movement. This is however offset somewhat by the need to 'lead' the target to compensate for flight time.

Report message to a moderator

Captain

Previous Topic: Alternative Music Pack??
Next Topic: Instead of keep moding v1.13 why not create a WHOLE NEW GAME?
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat May 18 08:30:04 GMT+3 2024

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.03785 seconds