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| Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152399]
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Thu, 09 August 2007 06:29 
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 CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Mesdames et Messieurs!
As it was promised - please find some stuff on trenches, based on actual JA2 phisics and some isometric trick (sic!).
Please consider the pictures below:
We have a "zero level" in blue, with an isometric grid (game tiles), but with subtiles (Niquist & Kotelnikoff, you know)...
We want to dig a 2x3 tiles trench with 2 tiles long slanted entrance from NE.
Consider the upper left draft:
What the game engine should see to imitate trenches? Yes, the JSDs of sandbags or stone fences!!! They are drafted in GREY, and various JSD structures are shown.
Orange dots - merc in trench
Dark green dots - merc entering the trench
Green dots - merc can jump from/to trench
Red dots - merc can NOT jump from/to trench
Red cross - tile to be made IMPASSABLE due to visual truth
We simplify the next, upper right picture, and we add ground texture for the bottom and the upper part of entrance, as shown in LIGHT BROWN.
Then, we DRAW (!) the slanted part of entrance - 2 tiles long with PSEUDO elevation. Please note - the slanted part is arranged to subgrids!!!
In order to imitate the merc movement on slanted ground we have placed one more JSD structure, marked with red cross.
We have finished with game phisics - merc will move like needed, and he will be guarded by JSDs!
We have a trench model on a flat game plane.
Now, we need to arrange the STI set. Consider the bottom left picture.
We have the slanted part, and we add trench walls (dark brown) and trench borders according to selected ground texture (green). We also add game tiles in yellow to check up the realism of movement when merc enter the trench.
Finally (see bottom right), we "orthogonalise" (my God!) the drawing, and we are ready to draw STI.
Happy digging, soldiers!
[Updated on: Thu, 09 August 2007 06:30] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152403]
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Thu, 09 August 2007 07:06 
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Please consider these two planes or aircrafts:
The NOMAD and the SKYVAN (both are military ones)
Both are ready to be implemented in the game, and with possibility to enter IN, and fight INSIDE!
These littl'birdies can be assembled like a trivial JA2 HOUSE!!! Just to arrange a set of STI - plane walls (no comments) and plane wings (flat roof!!!)
More! In the same manner we can do trucks and BOATS!!!
All we have to do, is whistle ((c)Jerry's brother) and study the JSD engine!!!
http://slil.ru/24717358
Enclosed is the A10 map, where some things, (made from standard tileset) are added to show how JSD engine works, and what can be implemented:
Trenches, Enterable Windows, Enterable planes etc.
Enterable Windows are shown in three variants, including a trick to arrange with roof anomalies. An experimental set (by VM) with modified JSDs for enterable windows will be ready soon.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152473]
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Thu, 09 August 2007 21:12
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Yesofcos, all of it IS an optical (but smart and well organized) optical illusion!!!
And what do You want? There is only one , GROUND, level in JA, plus an ugly flag (ON_TOP) for mercs on roof or on the top of hill.
To dig a real row or trench, to erect second or third floor, You must completely redo all the game PHISICS, liquidate (even) all traces of linear algebra and classical geometry in the engine, and rearrange all with whole numbers arithmetics (double integer, You know?), basing on JSD structure points.
In such an approach the JSD array (3d one, actually, 5x5x4 + 5x5x3 (f...ed ON_TOP)) will be not a sum of two little, but a unique true 5x5x16 3D matrix, allowing, say, three floors with true basement.
Ready to start? Flag (sic!) in Your hands, as we say here... You'll be ON_TOP!!!
P.S. Have a look at Bartek0511 thread, New Caledonia mod - there is a Flight Tower in airport - based on the true optical illusion.
But it is a true charming beauty, and wery well implemented.
P.P.S. There are many other tricks - like mountainside, vineyards and even staircases, fake ones, and even true ones, if arranged with trigger, setting/clearing the ON_TOP flag (another Terapevt idea). A "quick and dirty" example of illusion mechanics for a slant road is shown on the above "linked" A10 map.
[Updated on: Thu, 09 August 2007 21:29] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152496]
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Thu, 09 August 2007 23:41
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| the scorpion |
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Messages:1834
Registered:September 2004
Location: CH |
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you could do a lot with these simple tricks even in ja2. Ask bonechucker, he had sent me various such illustrations back in the days.
ja2's engine is somewhat underestimated and not enough modmakers live up to the kind of imagination required to do these things. some good stuff done by bartek0511 and will gates recently though.
many of these things are on my "would-like-to-work-on-it" list but my graphic skills and therefore my progress is bad.
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Sergeant Major
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152510]
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Fri, 10 August 2007 02:03
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Some stuff is drafted already... But not yet STIed. Lack of "sense of art", helas...
All this, and much more, was done or studied for an unfinished (unstarted) mod "Diversants" (Special forces commandos) - spring 1944, Bosnia and Croatia, Adriatique, Linia Adzurra etc.
Btw. - it was a "suissagas" in RPCs - swiss engineer, sharpshooter.
One of the tricks was "top of hill embuscade" - a cavern (mine entrance rearranged) in the mountainside, teleport to a cavern in (any of 255)underground sector, teleport from the cavern to needed sector, but to the tile located on the upper level (cf. original sector A8 - cliffs on north).
There is an example based on orig. maps, but sectors A8 and D4_B1 are used.
It's look nice, never crashed, enemies try to hit You from the base level, but can't approach - lack of climbing skills (he-he)!
This trick is ready to be implemented in any mod, but if it will be possible to dig caves in every sector, caves (full of troops) will be in many houses!!!
As for other stuff, the main problem was in STI drawing and tileset enlarging. But still required some job with JSD engine in code, and some imagination in arranging tact. map structures.
Other things are bridges, over water and canyons (rivieres et ravins), but with real passes UNDER bridges! It's not hard, with some idealism in mind.
Drafts and illustrations can be made quick, but as for STIs - can not.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152514]
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Fri, 10 August 2007 02:28
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Yesofcos, digging is doable! And even, there is a model of a little trench for one merc - don't know the english (even french) term, so in russian: стрелковая ячейка при окапывании. Wait a bit, just time to find the file on an old HDD...
But, we need some code refinement - the first "shovel" (would You like to try to draw a new cursor - red (sic!) shovel?) work like mine planting - we have a trigger, then, on second "shovel", the trigger (in sand cloud) place the trench STI on the screen and a JSD structure on the game world.
Simple like making children, huh...
You missed other thing - tree barrages!!! You place a grenade or TNT aside a tree, it drop down in direction opposite to planted explosive. We need a partner STIs set for lying trees, and partner JSDs - in order mercs and others could skip over, like over fences. That's all, folks!
Helas, i could write all this stuff for a lot of families of microcontrollers or embedded systems in assembler, but i forgotten C long time ago, because never knew it (for really program with)... So, algorithmes and structures (do You remember this SWISS book?) - ask, please, we'll imagine many new things; as for C code and STI drawing - i'm a dummkopf.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152657]
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Sat, 11 August 2007 05:48
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Your ideas are good, but can't be implemented. Please read my previous posts here - it's explained why. We tryed to radicalise the gameplay with many more ideas three years ago, but all the ways directed us to two levels only.
So, the real and clean way to FINISH an amazing mod - explore the actual engine and game phisics, try new JSDs and STIs, add new animations, new tilesets and remember (or study) geometry, isometrics particularly.
Please find below a little illustration of the JSD engine and concept in the game.
There is Only ONE plane, or the base level. Every object (or every tile, if multitile) is a submatrix of a 3D 5x5x4 singular (? - full of "Ones") matrix. See a lightgreen hatched column on the right. Every "One" is an elementary "jsd_cube", and the engine operate only with these "cubes".
The top of the column is the max. height of any object on the base level - four (4) "cubes", no more (!!!)
The roofs, trees etc. are made with a special flag in the basic JSD (Has_item_on_top).
Every subobject or human on the roof or top of other high objects has another flag (On_top). The TAB button change your cursor - just to cope with this flag.
Every object with On_Top flag is elevated 2,5 tiles up from the base level - this is shown with a little grey plane.
Every object "On_Top" is also limited in max. height - only three (3) "cubes", no more.
So, You can tail Your own JSDs painlessly, JSD editor provided. There are two cactuses (JSD of) on the picture - A & B. JSDs are identic, but located differently. So, You are able to use various STI here, and, in case of cactus B, the tile is passable from the south.
The red,green and blue things are HUMANs. They are 3 "cubes" high, 3 "cubes" wide and 1 "cube" deep.
The "1" can climb to "1'" state (vice versa), but will never jump inda cactus (don't ask why!). The "2" can kill or strangle the green "E" (enemy) or jump in NW direction.
The unmarked "blue" is here to show why mercs walk differently the northern and southern parts of the roof. It's a little bug - they are elevated (coord. of STI modified) by 2,5 tiles, but the roof top thickness is 0,5 tile (visually, not JSD)!
The "red" marked "J" (jumper) is ready to jump over obstacle "O", touching the yellow dot by hand (as animated) to arrive in the pos. "J'" - Humans jumps not only over obstacle, but over one tile too!
Every window is 3x2 "cubes", and by 1 "cube" over the base level. It seems to be realisable to change the window dimensions (for casemats etc.), but this was not yet tested, afaik.
There are only two positions for the walls - on the south sides of the tile, so the SE wall "eat" a part of SW one - this part is marked RED. As You can guess, a wall thickness is 1 "cube".
In that way, there are some special NW walls in the tilesets - they are 1 "cube" wider than others. They close a passable or transparent slot, if the north corner is handmade from normal walls.
As per "playing JSDs" - it is very interesting to add JSDs to killed humans and to rotting corpses. Then - to try to make mercs able to TAKE the dead enemy and drag or carry it out.
Bet, many things are missed, so ask for anything...
Finally - The real and GENIAL IDEA of SirTech programmers!
The height of any layer in the JSD matrix is VARIABLE!!!
(but not yet clear where in the code, helas...)
This is why You always have "leg, corpse, head" when stay or crounch, and You can aim and shot at the head of an enemy staying behind the crounched one.
And this is why JA phisics can be redone (hardly) to be faster but inherently stable, and with many floors.
[Updated on: Sat, 11 August 2007 05:59] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches or can a house becomes plane. Isometry studies...[message #152702]
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Sat, 11 August 2007 21:17
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Strange, but pardonnable, pan!
Yes, after complete (!!!) restructuring and reprogramming - many levels are possible.
Actual engine - don't permit it at all!
If You want, You can be provided with a set of two maps from vanilla JA2 (A8 & D4_B1) to try the top of hill embuscade, or You can read how to do it hereabove.
In the same way you can make an entrance to the lower part of wildcats pit, in order to "kill them all" from the down, remaining intouchable.
If You want to simply imitate a multilevel environment, You can copy all the mountain STIs in a temp folder, rename them, and entering all this stuff in the selected tileset like simple rocks or plants.
You'll be able to make one standard ON_TOP level, and populate it with new STIs - a multilevel illusion.
That is really all with standard engine, but things are really even more bad - You can't make mountains in the south of tactical map and every mountain structure MUST contact the edges of the map.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches, a house like plane. Isometry and JSD studies...[message #153003]
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Tue, 14 August 2007 09:14
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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This night seems wonderful... Perseides propably...
JSDs clarified suddently:
- Complex and triggerables ones - cf. fences for jump over or to cut...
- Static, with minor actions on - cf. Wall, Door, Tank (all with partner STIs & static JSDs) and
CHAIR (everytime asked - why not jump over!!!). What, if we move CHAIRs to TERRAIN, with fences and cliffs? With JSD editing? We shall jump over CHAIRs!
- Dinamic - selfmoving "live" objects - humans, cows etc.
A flavor of thinkable structure... Shall check in game, but coder's attention would be appreciated. BTW - is it possible to enlarge the tileset, is it dinamic?
Finally, "transparent" walls appeared, and comparable concept found in another thread...
A house can be a plane, truck or ship/boat - provided the division onto sides(walls) and tops(flat roofs). For example - it may be "XMLised STIs" - pictures of things and their openable/changeable parts - JSDs are standard, walls & related - "invisible" ones, but the engine put XMLised STIs on the map - an enterable means of transport is born.
Hope to place some pictures today, yet... Time to feed my cat...
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches, a house like plane. Isometry and JSD studies...[message #153759]
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Mon, 20 August 2007 16:05
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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To Zed. Ofcos, You can't see these threads, bcse they're hidded ones. You can ask Cobra(!), LDV, Refiler(!), Strax5, Дядя Боря, probably Ingris, and, of course, Ice_T...
But, due to changes in policies of ja2.ru it's probable these threads were deleted or archived... Ask supermoders...
Also, Look here: http://forum.ja2.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=othermods;action=display;num=1108808727
It's Your profile, isn't it? http://forum.ja2.ru/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?action=viewprofile;username=zed
In any ways, ask in private...
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches, a house like plane. Isometry and JSD studies...[message #153927]
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Tue, 21 August 2007 15:36
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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Hi here!
Never leaved my (and Gzuroblin) part of job. All the stuff is as ready as it was, and it even grow... And it appears here, nah (sic!)!
As per threads (on ja2.ru) - they are (!!!) not the same, and not the same mod...
It's not our Zed... Probably... May be...
Верещагин! Пулемет дашь? (с)
Лучше помоги с ЖСД-"машинкой" - всё остальное - химота и бантики...
As You, the (so) sarcastic C-guru, are here, open Your auricles (eyes)!!!
Remember 2004, Your own draft
1. The "Exclusive OR"-ed colours for hat-cap-helmet-uniform_cap in every bodytype STI
2. The "Exclusive OR"-ed colours for jacket-coat-topcoat-raincoat-overcoat-sheepskin_coat in every bodytype STI
3. The dinamic bodytype change in function of handled-activated items - active on tactical
- 3.1 Swim with a tree stem/snag in, say, big slot - Bodytype_in_water STI change to "human_with_stem"
-- 3.1.1 If non-swimmer - can swim and will not sink
-- 3.1.2 If swimmer - can swim and shoot freely even in deep water
- 3.2 Swim with a dinghy in, say, big slot - Bodytype_in_water STI change to "human_in_dinghy_scull"
-- 3.2.1 If dinghy is hit, it blow and disappear - bodytype change back to normal
-- 3.2.2 Activation of dinghy - fast, by smthg like squib or gas-cylinder
-- 3.2.3 Desactivation (blow-out?) of dinghy - slow, sound of air could be added
- 3.3 Mounted on something like bike-scooter-motorcycle-horse-cow
- 3.4 Skiers
4. More complex bodytype change - rearranging of vehicles handling may be affected - active on strategic
- 4.1 The first entered in "means of travel" become "vehicle_with_man-at-wheel", but is still able to takein more mercs
-- 4.1.1 Standard cars - ice_truck and jeep, other added thru XML
-- 4.1.2 Boats - cog, cutter, yacht etc. (Studied by Neyros - possible, with minor recoding, boats will never try to float "in sand or grass") - variations thru XML
-- 4.1.3 Aircrafts - heli, vertol, plane. For landing in plane or vertol (cf. Seaking), mercs must know the terrain, else crash. By night, terrain must be known or other mercs must be present at landing zone, with watch-fire or light-mines activated - else crash
5. Minor, but very nice addons to STIs and actions
- 5.1 Crouched in low water (+1 AP to turn), other actions - normally. Splash sound for every action of mercs without Sthealth skill
- 5.2 Prone in low water (+1 AP to every action), non-swimmers can't fire (fear). Splash sound for every action of mercs without Sthealth skill
- 5.3 Crouched in middle water (+1 AP to every action), non-swimmers can't fire (fear). Splash sound for every action of mercs without Sthealth skill
- 5.4 Underwater breathing
- 5.4.1 Cane, visible the day, if no grass around
- 5.4.1.1 Cane - for prone in low water - visible the day
- 5.4.1.2 Cane - for crouched in middle water - visible the day
- 5.4.2 Scuba or tube - for prone in low and crouched/prone in middle water - visible the day, but invisible if next to grass. Fear and splashes if non-swimmer
- 5.5 Diving
- 5.5.1 Scuba in deep water (non-swimmer can't), long travels and embuscades, invisible, but bubbles sound and STI (can be modified "in_game", to make "isolated" scuba set), penalty for agility and dexterity on land
- 5.5.2 Breather (scuba pipe?) in deep water (non-swimmer can't), short travels, underwater attack, invisible
- 5.5.3 The same in middle water, exept for visibility of the diver and long travels with breather
- 5.5.4 Underwater fight and dropped things handling
- 5.6 "Jump and dive in any water from border", especially for deep water (the "like Christ" intermittent state over deep and middle water)
- 6. Two (all the eight around) tiles actions - merc interact CLOSELY with objects/bodies in closest tiles around. Multitile JSD interaction handling to be written, multitile animations.
- 6.1 All imaginable variants of close-combat - strangle, renverse, throw over, backheel, block-attack and break hand/leg, even SIT over prone body - with direct contact of two (more?) bodies
- 6.2 Wounded or stunned body drag or carry - New amazing STIs
- 6.3 Corpse hiding - The minimum is to make killed corpses impassable, "fill" them with JSD!
- 6.4 The ill-starred question - Stationary guns and cannons. Not only merc "immobile, attached to", but "bodytype change" if turret-mounted.
Enough for now. To be continued...
Один в поле не воин! Эт да!
[Updated on: Tue, 21 August 2007 18:14] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: Digging trenches, a house like plane. Isometry and JSD studies...[message #155524]
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Sun, 02 September 2007 21:33
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| Tigerbox |
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Messages:1
Registered:July 2007 |
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cNc you mind sending me the sti's? im working on a couple of maps with heavy fortifications and some trences would be perfect.
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Civilian
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| Re: Digging trenches, a house like plane. Isometry and JSD studies...[message #155530]
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Sun, 02 September 2007 22:14
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| CNC_gun |
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Messages:83
Registered:July 2007
Location: Moscow, RF |
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BTW. It seems, i found four plane types seeming to be real in Arulco - selection critaeriae were form simplicity (for drawing), inherent STOL by design, multirole, possible inclusion as a means of transport (like car, but air). And form simplicity make battle inside possible!!!
1. OV-10 Bronco - STOL, 4 7,62 MG, up to 6 airbornes inside, multirole battlefield and antiguerilla
2. SC-7 Skyvan - STOL, multirole, back opening, 15-19 passengers, can be gunship
3. GFA Nomad - same, as above, more aesthetic
4. CASA C-212 - STOL, multirole, up to 26 pass.
All were or still are in service in South America, seems to have the same engine, upper three are 12 tiles long, the fourth is 16 tiles. All have wings On_Top - so can be made as flatroof tiles, allowing combat inside, like in standard house.
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