Home » SIRTECH CLASSICS » Jagged Alliance 2 » The A.I.M. Library » Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI !
Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177839] Sun, 09 March 2008 23:57 Go to next message
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Messages:12
Registered:March 2008
Hi
I'm not a good player, but not a real noob from much, and recently I started 3-4 games and in each was able to take Drassen easily - some games were in "Novice" mode, in others I attacked at day mostly, and once at night but they're wasn't many enemies (maybe 10).
Now I play an "Experienced" mode, and attack at night with my IMP (85 Dex-Agi-Mk, dble stealth), Scope and Blood.
Drassen has at now least 16+ baddies, with 3-4 them "yellow shirts". And I got killed every time (tried 6 times !), even if I kill 8-10 of them there's still others that banzaies, flank, whatever.
Plus they have supernatural aim and land 75% of pistol shots from 16+ tiles away on prone mercs camoed and behind cover, always see me before I see them (even when they fire and not me !!!). What's that ?? Even vanilla JA2 was less ridiculous !
Once I tried came down along the eastern border of the map : on turn 2 of battle some reinforcements directly came from off map, run adjacent to my mercs, and kill them before I can react :grimreaper: ...

Well it's disgustingly hard and loaded, worse than WF lol, and so unrealistic I'm thinking of just quitting.
Any idea to help ?

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Private
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177847] Mon, 10 March 2008 01:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeThePro is currently offline MikeThePro

 
Messages:175
Registered:November 2007
Location: Bulgaria

Try to surround the suckers.Walk a bit more and enter the airport from the east side.Use the buildings as cover and you'll be able to clear out several enemies until you make it to the building itself(the snapperhead on the rooftop's crucial)
Then it's getting easy. Stand with the team along the wall and some will eventually come to investigate.If they don't, use a wedding shot to lure them in there.

I had a problem with confronting the guys from the north myself, they always came from all sides and I couldn't do much, especially when they lighten the airstrip.
But when I went around it was way easier.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177895] Mon, 10 March 2008 15:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:12
Registered:March 2008
I was talking about Drassen Mine, not the airport.

What infuriates me is that the cheating AI removes all semblance of realism to the fight, with their "teleporting reinforcements", "integrated NV" to baddies, and "Guided missile Pistols".

My mercs, paid 1000-3000$ a day, with scoped and auto rifles, can't cope with the crappiest guards when there are more than 4-5 per merc, that sucks balls.

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Private
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177897] Mon, 10 March 2008 15:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Will Gates is currently offline Will Gates

 
Messages:1014
Registered:September 2006
Location: Far far away.
You're talking 1.13 stuff. Some of the changes in 1.13 are not "balanced" imho but here's a tip or 2; take the mine and airport but don't bother with central Drassen for a bit. This gives you income and access to B-Rays but avoids the mass counterattack until you are more ready. Or; as the red reinforcements are swarming around the mine sector & if you can do without income take the northern two sectors then halt; full train militia then proceed with your own reinforcments... makes stealing KP's money much more of an essential early task.

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Sergeant Major
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177903] Mon, 10 March 2008 16:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
foij is currently offline foij

 
Messages:227
Registered:February 2007
Location: in a van, down by the riv...
First of all, are you talking about the mine counter attack? If you don't like it, turn it off. There is a sticky post about the counter attack for tactics.

Otherwise, in normal fights, in 1.13, you'll have to play using really cheap tactics initially, until you learn how the AI has changed and you can effectively counter it. The first yellowshirt battle on the way to Drassen airport can be tough...pick a fight when you're in HEAVY cover (like really dense trees), if possible. (or hide in a farm house and shoot them as they come through the door) Let the enemy come to you, then withdraw one of your mercs to flank and hit the enemy from the side or behind.

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Sergeant 1st Class
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177905] Mon, 10 March 2008 17:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker is currently offline Starwalker

 
Messages:762
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
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Drassen has at now least 16+ baddies, with 3-4 them "yellow shirts". And I got killed every time (tried 6 times !), even if I kill 8-10 of them there's still others that banzaies, flank, whatever.
Plus they have supernatural aim and land 75% of pistol shots from 16+ tiles away on prone mercs camoed and behind cover, always see me before I see them (even when they fire and not me !!!). What's that ?? Even vanilla JA2 was less ridiculous !
Once I tried came down along the eastern border of the map : on turn 2 of battle some reinforcements directly came from off map, run adjacent to my mercs, and kill them before I can react :grimreaper: ...

Well it's disgustingly hard and loaded, worse than WF lol, and so unrealistic I'm thinking of just quitting.
Any idea to help ?

Do you take limited vision into account?
Do your mercs have vision gear that's bad at that time of day (e.g. sungoggles at night)?

If you know there are reinforcements coming from a flank, don't enter the map near that map edge. For example, if you enter Drassen Mine from the North, you should enter the map in the middle of the Northern Edge, not near the Western or Eastern map edge, where enemy reinforcements are likely to show up. Don't rush to the middle of the map, or you'll be easily surrounded. Seek some cover and stay put there until no more enemies come your way, only then can you move forward. Throw breaklights on your flanks and stay out of lit areas yourself, so you can see the enemy before they see you. If you have guns with scopes, take them down after killing an enemy, to get your normal field of vision instead of the scope's tunnelvision, when in tunnelvision you can easily miss flanking enemies.
Other than that: Take more mercs to have some protection on your flanks (with 4 mercs you can have two with their focus forward, and one protecting each of your two flanks).

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First Sergeant

Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177939] Mon, 10 March 2008 23:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wounded Ronin is currently offline Wounded Ronin

 
Messages:75
Registered:August 2006
I wear my sungoggles at night, I wear my sungoggles at night...

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Corporal
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177946] Tue, 11 March 2008 00:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:12
Registered:March 2008
None of my guys wear sungoogles ... it's just that the baddies see farther than they.
As for reinforcements, yes I don't come from a flank now that I know they're there, but that's just gamey. That's what I dislike in fact : it doesn't look right, real combat tactics don't work, stealth is mostly useless, close combat is non-existent, instead I've to rely on gamey tricks...

I thought that 1.13 had fixed that gameyness, it has at day for a good part, but at night, no...

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Private
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #177952] Tue, 11 March 2008 02:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker is currently offline Starwalker

 
Messages:762
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
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None of my guys wear sungoogles ... it's just that the baddies see farther than they.
As for reinforcements, yes I don't come from a flank now that I know they're there, but that's just gamey. That's what I dislike in fact : it doesn't look right, real combat tactics don't work, stealth is mostly useless, close combat is non-existent, instead I've to rely on gamey tricks...

Well, make a habit of appearing in the middle of a map edge, whether you know the enemy can get reinforcements or not.
Stealth really depends on how many enemies are in the sector. If there are too many, then it's almost guaranteed that you will be noticed, even if using suppressed guns. But do not forget that the enemy's vision is limited, too. Now you /can/ sneak behind their back, which was not possible with the 360

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First Sergeant

Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #178003] Tue, 11 March 2008 17:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Messages:12
Registered:March 2008
I can't even imagine how to deal with 100 guys counterattacking on day 3, when you have at most 5-6 mercs, lousy equipment and maybe not even 100 bullets in stock ! You have to be really gamey !

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Private
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #178047] Wed, 12 March 2008 07:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wounded Ronin is currently offline Wounded Ronin

 
Messages:75
Registered:August 2006
Or just, you know, not take the airport on day 3.

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Corporal
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #178156] Thu, 13 March 2008 12:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DNA from the Lowlands is currently offline DNA from the Lowlands

 
Messages:337
Registered:July 2003
Before 1.13 I would keep 1/2 mercs for interupts and let others run forward - to cover.
The most forward would, then become guard while the leapfrogging continued.

Since 1.13 I can't seem to move. (that's an overstatement)
I'm inviting disaster when I do.
Like Starwalker wrote: "Don't rush to the middle of the map, or you'll be easily surrounded."
I've become semi-scared to leave the sector-edge (the retreat-entire-squad zone).

However that sector-edge 'always' fills up with baddies, when they come.
(perhaps a fixed insertion point for baddies, but that would be remote-det.fest.)

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Master Sergeant
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #178528] Wed, 19 March 2008 06:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JA fan

 
Messages:187
Registered:March 2007
Will Gates
You're talking 1.13 stuff. Some of the changes in 1.13 are not "balanced" imho but here's a tip or 2; take the mine and airport but don't bother with central Drassen for a bit. This gives you income and access to B-Rays but avoids the mass counterattack until you are more ready. Or; as the red reinforcements are swarming around the mine sector & if you can do without income take the northern two sectors then halt; full train militia then proceed with your own reinforcments... makes stealing KP's money much more of an essential early task.


One question from the Ja1.13 newbie: Are you saying that a "normal player" can't stand invading the 3 sectors in-a-row like vanilla?


Starwalker
PDF
None of my guys wear sungoogles ... it's just that the baddies see farther than they.
As for reinforcements, yes I don't come from a flank now that I know they're there, but that's just gamey. That's what I dislike in fact : it doesn't look right, real combat tactics don't work, stealth is mostly useless, close combat is non-existent, instead I've to rely on gamey tricks...

Well, make a habit of appearing in the middle of a map edge, whether you know the enemy can get reinforcements or not.
Stealth really depends on how many enemies are in the sector. If there are too many, then it's almost guaranteed that you will be noticed, even if using suppressed guns. But do not forget that the enemy's vision is limited, too. Now you /can/ sneak behind their back, which was not possible with the 360

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #178542] Wed, 19 March 2008 11:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Starwalker is currently offline Starwalker

 
Messages:762
Registered:October 2005
Location: Hannover, Germany
Rudy_Roberts
- I can imagine it by what ppl told here. It exposes your positions..... Uh Oh

The Drassen counterattack is hard, because there are so many enemies.
The Drassen counterattack during a rainstorm can really make you sweat, as enemies are sneaking past your positions and turn up in the middle of the map without anyone seeing them, and then when a flash of lightning comes, you realize that you are in the middle of the enemy (and yes, they get to see you, too)...
But it also means that you can do with weaker guns, because you cannot see far anyway. It's a scenario where those heavy pistols (Desert Eagle, LAR Grizzly, Wildey Survivor) can shine for once in the game.

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First Sergeant

Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #181798] Thu, 17 April 2008 10:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spinx is currently offline Spinx

 
Messages:34
Registered:February 2007
Location: Washington state
I have experianced and indeed talked to one of the coders about this along time ago and they found that, possably due to the Yellow shirts having so many peniltys that they end up hitting at least 35% of the time if rember the post correctly through his signifigant testing, this doestn seem high but the testing was done behind cover at ranges over 20 when the yellows were using the crappyest pistols possable. So yes in 1.13 guided rocket missles= true.
Found Spacevikings research http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=viewmessage&message=338&gonew=0

[Updated on: Thu, 17 April 2008 10:38] by Moderator

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Private 1st Class
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #181819] Thu, 17 April 2008 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking is currently offline SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Spinx, I remember doing that but the link you provide doesn't work.

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First Sergeant

Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #181893] Thu, 17 April 2008 20:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spinx is currently offline Spinx

 
Messages:34
Registered:February 2007
Location: Washington state
interesting works for me when I click on it. guess I'll copy/paste your work
SpaceViking
I looked through the code and it is quite complicated how it figures out the to-hit chance. I added some code that logged what the best to-hit chance was for each soldier right as they shot. This was a battle between Magic and 4 yellow shirts at novice difficulty:

Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 8
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 1
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 1
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 1
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 1
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 25
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 25
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 8
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 18
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 8
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 23, chance to hit = 15
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 30
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 30
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 23
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 23
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 23, chance to hit = 20
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 23, chance to hit = 24
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 30
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 20, chance to hit = 30
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 13
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 21, chance to hit = 3
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 23
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 22, chance to hit = 23
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 23, chance to hit = 15
Best chance to hit: soldier id = 23, chance to hit = 25

The id #20 guy shot at Magic from 15 tiles and and hit Magic 4 times in his 10 shots. Most of his shots were while he was on the ground. None of the others hit Magic and were all from 16 or more tiles away.

Anyway, a 25% or 30% chance of a yellow shirt (even one who has lain down) hitting a kneeling merc from 15 tiles away does seem excessively high. Perhaps this does merit more investigation.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #184553] Fri, 09 May 2008 11:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vapour is currently offline Vapour

 
Messages:52
Registered:May 2008
The AI is essentially a fixed entity which means if you understand it you can 'cheat' yourself. Use everything to your advantage.

Things to consider,

1) Spam interrupts, simply lay down in a line behind cover, face the right way and then end turn so you have full AP. Have your fastest guy stand up and use him as the 'draw'. Once spotted fire one shot and run like hell, they will follow and walk straight into your trap.

2) Weapons, ensure each sniper also has a good burst fire weapon for CQB ( it costs nothing to change weapons in a fight ) and at least one grenade to buy time. Mines are useful as are remote bombs in choke points. Your enemy will sneak up on you and simply having a sniper rifle will leave you dangerously weak when he pops up 2 squares in front of you. Have a reserve weapon at all times.

3) Grenades, smoke grenades are under used. Use them to hide both yourself and hide from the enemy view. Mustard gas is a godsend, spam the hell out of it at choke points. Even if you dont hurt them you will slow them down long enough to repostition and reload.

4) Stealth mode, great for sneaking someone round to counter any flanking moves, ensure the person doing the flanking has a good ranged weapon with burst fire if possible.

5) Militia, also known as bullet magnets, use them as human shields, use them to focus the enemy into bottle necks, use them!

6) Rooftops, most of the time if you set up a square of men facing each direction you can simply wait on rooftops and use interrupts and fire and retreat to pick them off, i've cleared whole maps this way and not got shot at all. Check your stats to ensure you have a good interrupt chance in each direction. Also remember the AI will have limited AP once he's on the roof as it costs him to get there in turn mode.

7) Doorways, line up men behind door ways and shoot the door itself once in a while. Often the AI will investigate and you will get to kill a few then close the door. AI wont shoot a closed door so it's basically free turns.

Cool Concealment is not cover!, tree's etc dont really do a good job of protecting you, nor to sandbag corners etc. Avoid and stick to buildings and solid objects. Also spam the fact you can shoot through walls laying down. It's cheap but if the AI does it then alls fair in love and war. In Tixa you can lay down by the sandbags at the gate and if you postition correctly you can sit there picking them off for a long time and noone can hit you. The only risk is if they charge and lob a grenade or two. This can be covered by spamming the interrupts as per above though.

It all comes down to micro management. I took a lot of time working out how the AI is programmed and tried things to see what works well in different situations. Many times i have entered a zone and been grossly outnumbered but still got through without a single hit just by taking my time and using the right tactic. My best zones saw 1 Merc taking out 19 enemy, many of which were elite, and he only got hit for about 10-20 health. Your fighting a guerilla war so you need to ensure your using guerilla tactics to survive. Dont forget that you can shoot even when there is no target and if you bounce a bullet off a door often times the enemy will walk over to check it out and you get free turns!

Hope it helps......

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Corporal
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #184566] Fri, 09 May 2008 13:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shanga is currently offline Shanga

 
Messages:3488
Registered:January 2000
Location: Danubia
Excelent post Vape, this is going straight into JAG tips database. :ok:

[Updated on: Fri, 09 May 2008 14:00] by Moderator

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Captain
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #184602] Fri, 09 May 2008 16:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Vapour is currently offline Vapour

 
Messages:52
Registered:May 2008
No problem, glad it helps. Feel free to use it at will. It's nice to pay back some of the advice i've read here. Your ammo tips in the other thread saved me a lot of frustration.

As i'm new to this forum i dont really know what the most common problems people face are or which types of scenario they usually have problems with but i would be happy to put together a list of counter tactics if people care to list the common problems. I'm no expert really but tactics is my thing and i do have a very analytic mind so will happily help as best i can.

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Corporal
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #202020] Wed, 19 November 2008 19:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Jammer is currently offline Jammer

 
Messages:11
Registered:November 2008
I must be extremely lucky. I just recently discovered 1.13 and survived my first play of the Drassen counterattack without even knowing it existed. After about the 20th enemy invader I killed I did start to suspect something was awry, however. I played JA 1 a lot back when it first came out, but never got far in JA2 Vanilla.

Here's how it went for me:

It happened to be night when the counterattack happened - good luck #1. I was in the sector with the church. I had Igor, Grunty, Blood, and my IMP (Ambi + Stealth), and all three were fresh with no wounds - good luck #2.

I alternated between sniping from rooftops and setting up ambushes inside buildings with few windows and limited entry points. Each time I made contact, after 3-4 rounds of shooting I would put my mercs in run mode and flee in the opposite direction while Grunty covered with his rifle. Then Grunty would also run like hell. If I went out of turn-based mode, I would put the squad in stealth mode and find a new place from which to launch an ambush.

If I went a while without contact, I would send Blood out with his throwing knives to make contact and draw the enemy back in.

By the time the counterattack was finally repulsed all of my mercs were wounded but not terribly so, and they were almost out of ammo, but no one died and I think I only had to reload from saves two or three times (all for weird stuff like having the wrong merc highlighted when issuing orders and things like that).

Having since read about what a bitch the Drassen counterattack is, I consider myself lucky for having it go down like that.

[Updated on: Wed, 19 November 2008 19:56] by Moderator

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Private
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #202612] Thu, 27 November 2008 04:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Snake Plissken is currently offline Snake Plissken

 
Messages:38
Registered:December 2001
It is confirmed that the AI cheats with their aim, making ridiculous shots with rather low marksmanship. This is part of the reason I've always been a proponent of save monkeying.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #202625] Thu, 27 November 2008 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking is currently offline SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Snake Plissken
It is confirmed that the AI cheats with their aim, making ridiculous shots with rather low marksmanship. This is part of the reason I've always been a proponent of save monkeying.


No, actually not.

What was confirmed was that there was a bug in the code that figured out whether ANYTONE (including your guys) could hit that added 1% to the chance of any shot. That increased the minimum chance to hit from 1% to 2%.

What was also confirmed was that the random number generator didn't reload its pre-saved numbers so that it always used the same 256 numbers for combat. This again affected everyone (including you) and could lead to either low chance shots hitting more often (if a lot of the 256 numbers were low) or never hitting at all (if numbers were high).

Both were fixed some time ago.

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First Sergeant

Re: Unable to capture Drassen Mine at night...Cheating AI ![message #203624] Tue, 09 December 2008 10:31 Go to previous message
deadpoet is currently offline deadpoet

 
Messages:9
Registered:November 2008
Yep I've noticed that the enemy can hit you at maximum range with their pistols -- it always makes the early game much more difficult. I don't start a game without hiring a merc with a longgun for a day or a week -- otherwise I find it near impossible to go toe-to-toe against the enemy using only pistols.

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Private
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