BP Logo
Home » PLAYER'S HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Gameplay Talk » Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271297] Wed, 26 January 2011 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wickedinsane

 
Messages:19
Registered:March 2010
Location: GERMANY
much appreciated, thanks! Now everything makes sense Smile
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271299] Wed, 26 January 2011 12:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
... and it's part of the fun to make your personnel better and not to use all the super-mercs

but i'd say (call it a compromise if you like) to set anyone with teaching led=12 and experts to led=20 is okay
I was rather thinking of re-alocating the teaching-trait.

Of course, you can train everybody to LDR 50, 60, 70 and more - you can also train everyone to MEC 50, 60, 70 and more, even those with a very low dexterity. But I think it would not make much sense to give someone with DEX 40 the Engeneer trait.

Teaching is used for training militias and training other mercs. That way I think this trait should be given only to those who either are experienced soldiers (and whos profiles somehow make it logical to make them drill sergeants), or who have something else to teach, such as doctors, explosives and mechanics experts.

Quote:
if biff, gumpy you name them were so much better speck would charge you more money, wouldn't he?
That's another topic: "Useless mercs and how they block slots for more interesting personal".
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271303] Wed, 26 January 2011 12:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
1. that would narrow teaching to military drilling
2. my style of play nearly automaticall makes anyone surviving end up at mec=100 (with gaining turned down extremely that is)
3. you do know that we have 255 slots now? for my mod i'm at 202 right now
4. ever heard of engineers doing theopretical work?
5. that is what makes jagged alliance unique (among other things) that you are not inserting some kind of a delta-force but people and i don't like the idea of narrowing it down to some kind of standard garbage.
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271308] Wed, 26 January 2011 13:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1469
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
You never stood in front of a drillsarge?

You only learn automatisms anything else You do learn is INSPITE of the Cougars, Bulls or Razors (which make at least 80% of all drill sarges everywhere).


drilling is NOT teaching.

Drilling some guys/dolls from the reservelist to be e.g. mps (in 4 weeks) leads directly to Abu Ghraib.

They don't know what they are doing and stick to something they have "learned" regardless what it is.

As long as they do so everything else is ok (torturing etc)
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271323] Wed, 26 January 2011 17:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Flo really isn't useless, she's just a total newbie and has led a soft life. With her high wisdom she has the potential to become quite good at a few things.

As for the teaching trait, there are some people who are good teachers and some who aren't. It has nothing to do with how good they are at some specific thing. A good teacher has a number of subtle traits like empathy, patience, and good presentation. I had teachers in college who were geniuses, nice people, and knew incredible stuff but they were totally crappy teachers.


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271324] Wed, 26 January 2011 17:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
SpaceViking
Flo really isn't useless, she's just a total newbie and has led a soft life. With her high wisdom she has the potential to become quite good at a few things.


She is also a few extra bucks in your pocket if you can utilize her right.
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271329] Wed, 26 January 2011 17:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nollan

 
Messages:108
Registered:July 2006
Location: Le Su
taoteching
She is also a few extra bucks in your pocket if you can utilize her right.
Can you make her turn tricks in San Mona or are you referring to her mysterious..."discount" at Tony's?
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271334] Wed, 26 January 2011 17:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1469
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
in vanilla her gear was worth more than her one day wages
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271335] Wed, 26 January 2011 17:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
it's not mysterious it's hardcoded - anyone who replaces her in a mod has it

if you read her bio you'll understand why she has it
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271365] Wed, 26 January 2011 19:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
// if Flo is doing the dealin' and wheelin'
if ( gpSMCurrentMerc->ubProfile == FLO )
{
	// if it's a GUN or AMMO (but not Launchers, and all attachments and payload is included)
	switch ( Item [ usItemID ].usItemClass )
	{
		case IC_GUN:
		case IC_AMMO:
			uiDiscountValue = ( uiItemPrice[ubCnt] * FLO_DISCOUNT_PERCENTAGE ) / 100;
			// she gets a discount!  Read her M.E.R.C. profile to understand why
			if ( fDealerSelling )
			{
				// she buys for less...
				uiItemPrice[ubCnt] -= uiDiscountValue;
			}
			else
			{
				// and sells for more!
				uiItemPrice[ubCnt] += uiDiscountValue;
			}
			break;
	}
}

The discount is 10%. What does it say in her profile?


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271366] Wed, 26 January 2011 19:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
that she did the bookeeping for a gun-dealer - so tony can't tell her no stories, what he obviously does with anyone else

edith:

as this dealer is in pittsburgh, pa she knows nothing about launchers (should be illegal there) - did not know about thar launcher-stuff Embarrassed
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271367] Wed, 26 January 2011 20:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Anonymous
[font:Arial Black][color:#FFFFFF]The Daughter of Vineyard workers, Florence Gabriel spent most of her childhood in Cognac, France before moving to Pittsburgh. After settling in the U.S., she took a job as the bookkeeper to a major gun dealer where she acquired extensive knowledge on the value of firearms. Slightly hesitant, but bright, Flo is simply priced too low to pass up.
[/color]
[color:#FFCC00]Additional Info[/color]

[color:#FFFFFF]Florence volunteers with illiterate adults during her spare time.[/color][/font]
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271368] Wed, 26 January 2011 20:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
I wonder if she actually has to be the active person, the one who initiates the deal, or if she just has to be in the party? I am going to try that tonight and see.

None-the-less that's good to know and greatly increases her value. If you deal with Tony a lot you can save her salary for months in just a few days.


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271369] Wed, 26 January 2011 20:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
she has to be the one who does the deal - if you have her and biff in a squad and give biff's equipment to tony the price rises as soon as flo is active

it doesn't matter who initiates the deal - she has to be the one active when the stuff is sold
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271370] Wed, 26 January 2011 20:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gorro der Grüne

 
Messages:1469
Registered:March 2009
Location: Broadwurschd-City
She has to make the deal.

She does not need to iniate it and the other mercs may offer their cargo BUT she must finish it.

You see it if You have a group of mercs in Tony's office. when you switch from another mercs inventory/tonies inventory to Flo/Tony the prizes of the offered and selected goods change.










Edith: "Mist Logi war schneller"
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271371] Wed, 26 January 2011 20:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Thanks guys. I am just not observant enough I guess as I have missed that despite my always extensive use of Tony.


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271381] Wed, 26 January 2011 22:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sergeant_Kolja

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2003
Location: Hannover, N-Germany

Off_Topic

P.S. Why do you keep changing the name of this thread...changed it back to "Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011 "


Ooops, sorry for that! Was a mistake.


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271387] Wed, 26 January 2011 23:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sergeant_Kolja

 
Messages:42
Registered:July 2003
Location: Hannover, N-Germany

Hail Gorro
and hi! all other readers of the teaching discussion,

Gorro der Gr


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271389] Wed, 26 January 2011 23:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Sergeant_Kolja
IMHO, guys like Biff can be trainer for 3rd world militia.
And if the game brings PC with the word "Teacher" in the Vitae, they should be at least at the minimalist required Level to immediately teach (20, right?)


What might be better is a penalty of some sort. Until they hit the cutoff they teach at 1/5th normal rate or something. You could make it a sliding scale perhaps so a guy with 1 would be totally hopeless while a guy with 19 would be merely weak.


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271393] Thu, 27 January 2011 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
SpaceViking
What might be better is a penalty of some sort. Until they hit the cutoff they teach at 1/5th normal rate or something. You could make it a sliding scale perhaps so a guy with 1 would be totally hopeless while a guy with 19 would be merely weak.


sounds good to me - let's say the minimum requirement stays in place BUT a teacher can teach anyway albeit he suffering from the beserk's malus
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271396] Thu, 27 January 2011 00:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Well, after much reviewing of the NCTH code, and talks (still ongoing) with Headrock, I think I understand why people are missing shots that appear to have little or no chance of missing. And it has nothing to do with range, scope magnification or anything like that. It has to do with the amount of "space" a target takes up.

In OCTH, you always hit the centerpoint of a target, or you missed completely. There was no in between. One of the key differences in NCTH is that is no longer what happens. Instead, the code determines the bullets flight path and then checks to see if a target intersects that path. It's this result that gives people a wide array of damages from actual hits. Instead of hitting "center mass" with every single hit, you might "wing" the target which is still a hit but a less lethal one.

Anyway, to determine if a target and a bullet path intersect, the program calculates the location where the bullet will pass through the "center plane" of the tile where the target is located. The target takes up a certain amount of space and if the bullet passes through a point that's covered by the target, the target is hit. In other words, if we assume a target covers 3.0 left and right of the center of a tile, and 5.0 up and down from the center of a tile, and our bullet is going to pass through the tile at 2.5x3.5, then the target will be hit. Unfortunately, it seems that a target doesn't actually take up 3.0 left and right all the time. Apparently if a you're looking at a target standing sideways to you, the target only takes up 1.0 left and right. The result is that you end up with about 1/3rd the chance to hit that you would normally have. And from everything I'm looking at, the cursor (which is really your only visual indicator of your odds of hitting) doesn't take the targets size into consideration when a target isn't facing you head on.

At the moment, I think the best solution is to make a target take up the same amount of room on the x/y coords. I just have to figure out exactly where in the code Headrock "taught" the system how much room a merc takes up. Smile
The alternative would be to try and have the cursor alter its shape to factor in how much space a target is taking up based on it's stance and facing to the shooter. But I can't think of a way to reliably do that.

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271397] Thu, 27 January 2011 00:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
SpaceViking

 
Messages:755
Registered:January 2004
Location: Rochester, Minnesota, USA
Taking facing into account is perhaps a bit too much realism given the way it works. I'd vote for ignoring facing.


Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271400] Thu, 27 January 2011 01:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
SpaceViking
Taking facing into account is perhaps a bit too much realism given the way it works. I'd vote for ignoring facing.
I just have to figure out how the target size is considered. This is a bit beyond my knowledge of the code. *chuckle*

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271404] Thu, 27 January 2011 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AndroidXP

 
Messages:32
Registered:July 2003
Location: Austria
Actually I think it's a pretty sweet idea to do that, however maybe it's best to limit it to prone targets for now, because there it would make quite a significant difference. I'm not sure just how detailed the modelling is at the moment though... just assuming a 3:1 front-to-side ratio would be a bit simplistic, considering how people carrying guns and being under fire don't tend to stand straight with their arms at their sides. Someone aiming a pistol would have a quite different profile to someone aiming a rifle, for example, and I doubt the current system takes all the different animations into account. Also, being shot from the side should not necessarily result in mostly arm hits, as they're either not beside the body to begin with (holding the gun, aiming) or the bullet would probably pass through the arm anyway.

Maybe an "average" overall size for standing and crouching targets might work out best, especially considering that the 2D nature of the game can sometimes make it very difficult to judge angles, even more so when rooftops are involved. A quick fix would be to always assume the "facing you directly" constellation of hitboxes if the target is standing or crouching.

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271412] Thu, 27 January 2011 02:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Apparently the "space" a target (or any other obstacle) takes is controled by the JSDs. According to Headrock, a tile is made up of 125 little cubes stacked 5x5x5. Each cube is 2 units wide, 2 units deep and approximately 6 units tall. Those cubes are either flagged as an obstacle or not. A standing soldier is 3 cubes tall, 3 cubes wide and 1 cube deep (Headrock described it like a plus sign). A crouching target is 2 tall, 3 wide and 2 deep. And a prone target is 1 tall, 3 wide and 5 deep. So to fix this problem it seems like altering the JSDs is what I'd need to do. Only I've no clue where the JSD data is stored (Headrock isn't sure either).

@AndroidXP: Yes, the "facing you directly" constellation of hitboxes would be a good, quick fix but I've no idea how to do that, either. Smile

We did discover one error in the cth/offset calculations versus the displayed apertures that's easy enough to fix. I'll have that error corrected by tomorrow.

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271448] Thu, 27 January 2011 13:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Gorro der Gr

[Updated on: Thu, 27 January 2011 13:10] by Moderator

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271450] Thu, 27 January 2011 13:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
ira is exceptional in other things - med (at least at the start)

sorry, but i don't get your intention to make it more like a real army
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271451] Thu, 27 January 2011 13:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
ira is exceptional in other things - med (at least at the start)
She starts with 40. That's less than Wolf, Cougar, Gus, Buns or Conrad - all of who are certainly no doctors.

Quote:
sorry, but i don't get your intention to make it more like a real army
Because that's more realisticaly. We add more and more features to make weapon behaviour and combat reastical, so why sticking to Vanilla patterns when it comes to assigning traits?
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271452] Thu, 27 January 2011 13:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
Buns
Logisteric
ira is exceptional in other things - med (at least at the start)
She starts with 40. That's less than Wolf, Cougar, Gus, Buns or Conrad - all of who are certainly no doctors.


lol, you can pay none of them realistically if you don't tweak money

Buns
Quote:
sorry, but i don't get your intention to make it more like a real army
Because that's more realisticaly. We add more and more features to make weapon behaviour and combat reastical, so why sticking to Vanilla patterns when it comes to assigning traits?


because it's supossed to be VANILLA - what you do in your mod is definately something totally different, but this very thread is about a new stable release STANDARD 1.13

edith:

if you rise the question 'how do i tweak that in my mod' i'll be the first to give you a helping hand - but it should be done in the appropriate thread

[Updated on: Thu, 27 January 2011 13:58] by Moderator

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271454] Thu, 27 January 2011 14:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
lol, you can pay none of them realistically if you don't tweak money
Let's see....

I can pay Dr. Q (87), Fox (70), MD (80), Spider (94) or Thor (70) without problems.

So, still no. Ira's med ranking is far from outstanding.

Quote:
because it's supossed to be VANILLA
A version without NIV, HAM, multiple IMPs, facilities, new items, new weapon stats, CTH and all that? Because that would be Vanilla. I still don't get it why you consider it a drama removing a not justified trait from Biff or Flo in a modification that otherwise changes every dammed aspect of the game, save for the maps and the quests.
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271457] Thu, 27 January 2011 14:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
it's about doing it where canon counts (standard-1.13) or where it doesn't (any mod) - ask starwalker about it

you want to change sth YOU don't like for ALL players - the next step would be 'from this day on aimNAS (or sth else) is standard'


'realistically' in that case means you are new to the game, which indeed are many players (that is a good thing)
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271459] Thu, 27 January 2011 14:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
it's about doing it where canon counts (standard-1.13) or where it doesn't (any mod) - ask starwalker about it
If that would be true we wouldn't be talking about it here at all:

With the new feature which makes Teachers unable to train town militia, while Leadership is too low, Biff and Flo are completely unusable, even in "easy" Game. They have "Teacher" in their Curriculum Vitae, but are not able to teach. This should be somehow rebalanced in my opinion.

And what exactly has this to do with guns?

Quote:
you want to change sth YOU don't like for ALL players - the next step would be 'from this day on aimNAS (or sth else) is standard'
*dough* I was making a suggestion to make trait assignement more realistical and logical, and by that solve the problem above reported by others.

FOR ME it absolutly doesn't matter what's going on in the game for "ALL players" because I am well able to adjust the game to my needs; just in case you forgot my reply to the above report:

Flo starts with LDR 1. I am wondering with whom you have her training to get her on a level that allows for serious training of militia within one day. I had given Flo the Paramedic and Athletics traits and upped her medic and agility rating accordingly.

[Updated on: Thu, 27 January 2011 14:33] by Moderator

Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271461] Thu, 27 January 2011 14:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
forget it - there are people who don't use stomp-traits

guess you never heard 1.13 should be as close to vanilla as possible - let's abandon anything that's not approved by (insert name here)!
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271467] Thu, 27 January 2011 14:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
forget it - there are people who don't use stomp-traits
I cannot recall to have suggested giving anyone STOMP traits. I was talking about allocating the Teacher trait, a trait as Vanilla as a trait can be.

Quote:
guess you never heard 1.13 should be as close to vanilla as possible - let's abandon anything that's not approved by (insert name here)!
And (insert name here) is you or Gorro?
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271468] Thu, 27 January 2011 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
paramedic, athletics? - with old traits they can train militia (those caps are introduced by STOMP)

du wei
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271469] Thu, 27 January 2011 15:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CptMoore

 
Messages:224
Registered:March 2009
cheap mercs = cheap stats.

I rather someone go and use the multi-equipment functionality on buying via merc. I'd like to order some mercs with some light machine guns, and not pistols.
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271470] Thu, 27 January 2011 15:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
paramedic, athletics? - with old traits they can train militia (those caps are introduced by STOMP)
Not being able to train militia when LDR is to low is HAM, not STOMP: http://ja2v113ham.wikia.com/wiki/Leadership_Requirements_for_Training_Militia

Quote:
du wei
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271471] Thu, 27 January 2011 15:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
and since when is ham activated on an OFFICIAL STABLE RELEASE?
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271472] Thu, 27 January 2011 15:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns

 
Messages:657
Registered:September 2010
Logisteric
and since when is ham activated on an OFFICIAL STABLE RELEASE?
Obviously since people complain they cannot train militia with low LDR mercs.
Re: Next 1.13 Release: Spring 2011[message #271473] Thu, 27 January 2011 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3248
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
these were beta-scis made by tais
Previous Topic: Maybe patch 1.14 would be more correct?
Next Topic: If you need new voices ...
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri Jun 25 00:24:46 EEST 2021

Total time taken to generate the page: 0.02456 seconds