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Handgrenades[message #278501] Sun, 24 April 2011 14:51 Go to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Not sure where to place this, Bug? Features? Refinement?

I think there is something wrong with the way throwing handgrenades is calculated. On the one side it seems my mercs are not able to throw handgrenades over more than 13 tiles. Taking weapon range for comparison, this is in fact a very extreme distance of 130 meter. Handgrenades are meant to be thrown at ranges of 50 meters and below; even Olympic throwing disciplines (spear, disc, hammer) don't reach 100 meters.

But then we have the enemy.... The largest distance I had measured for an enemy throwing a grenade was 25 tiles. But I had definitly seen them throwing grenades over even larger distances, in one occasion even over a house. Giving that standard maximum vision range is 26 and that enemies usually do not attack without visible contact, we can say that range to throw grenades for enemies seems to be unlimited.

Obviously this shouldn't be the case. Even the 13 tiles allowed for the player would be a bit to much, but acceptable for gameplay reasons. The 25+ tiles achievable by the enemy would be completly out of question.

The next question would be hitting: In most occasions I can be happy if the grenade lands in the same zip code as the target is in. Giving that throwing a grenade usually consumes most APs for a turn, and to not have them becoming useless ballast, I have developed a habit of save-load to repeat the throw until at least any enemy suffers some damage by the grenade - not demanding that it should be the enemy I actually had been throwing at. And even then I need four or five attempts - if not giving it up and making three aimed shots instead.

And then there is the enemy.... I cannot recall to ever have seen an enemy grenade obviously missing. I sometimes do witness them failing to go boom because of crappy status. But they always land right between the feet of the target (not knowing which character the enemy had been targeting, of course, but it's always a full hit on someone).

Both shouldn't be the case either. Most grenades have a radius of something around 5 tiles. They should neither usually land so far away for the player that they don't do any dammage at all (that would be more than 50 meters off the target), nor should there be a guarantee for the AI to have an easyer time hitting with handgrenades than with scoped rifles.

Another thing I notice, or rather "not notice", is any difference between the mercs. I would, for example, expect Ira to seriously suck at throwing grenades because of her low strength and marksmanship, and in return Ivan to be an excellent thrower. But that doesn't seem to be the case. Regardless whom I have throwing grenades the result always seems to be the same - or differences are so marginal that I cannot notice, or there are some many requirements involved that all mercs fail in the end? Also in this case it would be questionable how the enemy manages to pass them all all the time.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278583] Mon, 25 April 2011 19:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Looking at the code related to throwing, I can say that strength is used to determine range but not accuracy. It's also based on the weight of the item being thrown. The equations used as as follows:
iThrowingStrength = ( EffectiveStrength( pSoldier ) * 2 + 100 ) / 3;
iRange = 2 + ( iThrowingStrength / (3 + (Item[usItem].ubWeight) / 3 ));
So a merc with a 50 strength would have a iThrowningStrength of 66 and if this merc was throwning a "Mk2 Grenade" (ubWeight = 6) the iRange would be 15. This range is finally adjusted with the mercs current breath percent:
iRange -= (iRange * (100 - pSoldier->bBreath)) / 200;
This does allow for pretty excesive ranges but that's for game playability. If we limited throwing range to realistic values, they'd be completely worthless. Anyway, that's how maxThrowRange is calculated. Though I should point out that is really just the maximum "accurate" throw range. You can attempt to throw a grenade (or anything else) as far as you want to but you'll get significant penalties for doing so, as I talk about in the next section.


As far as accuacy, the base cth for throwing is based on MRK and Dex:
iChance = ( EffectiveDexterity( pSoldier ) + EffectiveMarksmanship( pSoldier ) ) / 2;
Morale, "fatigue" and throwing at the same target all have an effect. Also, there is a range modifier which is based on the actual range versus the maxThrowRange (calculated above). You can get up to a +50% cth against a target that is 0 tiles away which gets progressively lower the further the target is. At maxThrowRange, the modifier is -50% to cth, though it doesn't actually stop there. In a test I just ran, my target is 36 tiles away and my maxThrowRange is only 12. This results in a -250% cth. On top of this, throwing at anything beyond maxThrowRange results in an additional "cth/2" penalty. Though, considering the huge negative numbers you can be working with, this can actually result in a higher cth, though its still below 0 which makes it effectively 0. My test shot at 36 tiles (the -250% cth penalty) droped my CTH from 92% before range, to -158% after the initial range penalty and then to -79% after the "cth/2" penalty. But it's still less then 0 meaning I can't hit at all.

One thing I do notice is that there is a code fragment that grants a bonuse for aiming:
if (ubAimTime)
{
	iChance += (AIM_BONUS_PER_AP * ubAimTime); // bonus for every pt of aiming
}
But I don't know of any way to aim a grenade whether we're talking about thrown grenades or those launched from a GL or mortar (which seems to use the same system). Not that it would make a huge difference even if you could aim since the bonus really isn't significant enough to overcome the range penalties (AIM_BONUS_PER_AP = 10). Even if I could spend "5 clicks" aiming, that extra 50% isn't going to mean anything when compared to the -250% AND "cth/2" penalties I'm suffering for range. Though it would at least compensate for some or all of the range penalty when throwing at or withing maxThrowRange. But anyway, since you can't aim a thrown shot to begin with, this code is moot. And since allowing aiming for thrown shots would not be easy to do (not to mention cost effective since it does take so many APs to throw anything) maybe we just need to adjust the range penalty so that it isn't as extreme as it currently is.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278598] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox is currently offline Blue_Fox

 
Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
13 tiles = 130 meters...
I think talking about tiles can be confusing.
You see houses who are 7 or 8 tiles, so you say that house = 70/80 meters?

And about the enemy, they suck sometimes too, some dummy's.

Yes, they even can throw 4 tiles away from you.
You here them curse Smile

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278600] Mon, 25 April 2011 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot is currently offline DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3679
Registered:July 2009
Well ... the scale goes something like
  • Weapon range: 1 tile = 10m
  • Model scale: 1 tile = 1m
  • Throwing stuff: some compromise that feels right, because neither scale is applicable (throwing farther than carbine range vs dropping it before your feet)

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Captain

Re: Handgrenades[message #278605] Mon, 25 April 2011 23:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MikeJahn is currently offline MikeJahn

 
Messages:53
Registered:June 2010
Hand grenades might have decent range but their damage is very low even against lightly armored opposition. If we cut down their range to say 5-8 tiles that'd be fine but I think we'd need new options. For one the grenade goes flying a few APs after you fling it so your merc has the time to get down and take cover. Also it should be possible to throw from a prone position just not as far. The damage at the epicenter should be devastating and there should be random chances of shrapnel within like a 5 radius, this shrapnel should do lots of damage and knock opponents out. Minigrenades probably can stay as is since they can serve as the HE or offensive variant of the grenade.

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Corporal
Re: Handgrenades[message #278655] Tue, 26 April 2011 12:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
ChrisL
Looking at the code related to throwing, I can say that strength is used to determine range but not accuracy. It's also based on the weight of the item being thrown. The equations used as as follows:
iThrowingStrength = ( EffectiveStrength( pSoldier ) * 2 + 100 ) / 3;
iRange = 2 + ( iThrowingStrength / (3 + (Item[usItem].ubWeight) / 3 ));
So a merc with a 50 strength would have a iThrowningStrength of 66 and if this merc was throwning a "Mk2 Grenade" (ubWeight = 6) the iRange would be 15.


So far, so good. A soldier with 100 strength would then have a throwing range of around 35 tiles. This seems to be the case for enemy soldiers but definitly is not true for my mercs because no one of my team gets a red crosshair at beyond 13 tiles, save for Vicky who has the trait "Throwing" and indeed can throw a full 15 tiles. This means they all throw as if they had 35 strength (what also is IMP Vanilla minimum, BTW).

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278684] Tue, 26 April 2011 18:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
A soldier with a 100 str has a throw range of up to 35 tiles IF the grenade being thrown is under ubWeight 3. Because of how rounding works, if a weapon has ubWeight 0-2, then you'd end up with "(Item.ubWeight) / 3" = 0. This means the break light and flare can be thrown up to 35 tiles with any kind of accuracy. If the weapon has ubWeight 3-5 (which is just the mini grenade) then it would have a top range of 25 tiles. Grenades with ubWeight 6-8 (stun, tear gas, mustard gas, mk2, smoke and flashbang) have a top range of about 20 tiles. All assuming a soldier with a 100 str. And this is just their "accurate" range. Beyond this max range, it's still possible to land a grenade but your CTH is all but nothing because not only are you being hit with a huge cth penalty, you're also getting your final cth cut in half.

Also, range is effected by breath/fatigue and stance. You lose a bit of range due to low fatigue:
iRange -= (iRange * (100 - pSoldier->bBreath)) / 200;
And you lose 30% of your max range if you're crouching:
iRange = (iRange * 70) / 100;
I tested a throw using Gus [STR 82, breath 83, crouching, throwing mk2 grenade) and he ends up with a 12 "maxRange". Although the red crosshair only went out to 9 tiles and I'm not sure why that happens.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278686] Tue, 26 April 2011 19:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3228
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
so why do THEY take some shots to the head - throw two he-grenates over a quarter of da map and run away in just one turn

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Captain
Re: Handgrenades[message #278689] Tue, 26 April 2011 19:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox is currently offline Blue_Fox

 
Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
I'm playing WF and Barry is my Engineer & Demolition man, protect my sniper Smile
He has 20% bonus range throwing grenades.
Strength: 80
Grenade 0.4 Kg, range 20 tiles

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278697] Wed, 27 April 2011 00:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Logisteric
so why do THEY take some shots to the head - throw two he-grenates over a quarter of da map and run away in just one turn
I've never seen the AI do that and I'm just reporting what I'm seeing in the code. I'm definitely not an expert on the AI, though I'm pretty sure it's using the same two functions I've been reporting from.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278719] Wed, 27 April 2011 13:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
ChrisL
Grenades with ubWeight 6-8 (stun, tear gas, mustard gas, mk2, smoke and flashbang) have a top range of about 20 tiles. All assuming a soldier with a 100 str. And this is just their "accurate" range. Beyond this max range, it's still possible to land a grenade but your CTH is all but nothing because not only are you being hit with a huge cth penalty, you're also getting your final cth cut in half.
And that's what I am witnessing in game: The only grenades available in my mod are the Mills Bomb, MK2, Stielhandgranate and the three smoke-makers. The enemy I was able to measure was throwing a smoke grenade over 25 tiles and had it landing on the spot right in front of the closest merc.

I have been toying around with vision range, means enemies are now more likely to see my mercs at longer range. The result was that I was showered with grenades of all kinds, all thrown far, far beyond the range any of my mercs was able to throw, and all landing right between the feet of one of my mercs. The test only became further playable with denying the enemy grenades at all.

Quote:
I tested a throw using Gus [STR 82, breath 83, crouching, throwing mk2 grenade) and he ends up with a 12 "maxRange". Although the red crosshair only went out to 9 tiles and I'm not sure why that happens.
Well, that's at least a different result. In TB combat I only came up with 13 tiles flat for all. With two exceptions: Vicky already named and I had Ivan throwing a grenade from a roof over 17 tiles, otherwise I had not been able to get a red crosshair beyond 13 tiles for him either. And grenades thrown by my mercs at this distance are most likely to go wide (I am waiting for the first one acutally throwing it behind him).

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278722] Wed, 27 April 2011 14:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Friendly Fire is currently offline Friendly Fire

 
Messages:74
Registered:January 2006
Is it possible to reduce the strength of AI fighters ?
After all they don't need to be so strong, they don't carry enough gear and even if they did, it is still possible to give them more action points or to reduce the effect of weight on ap's.
Their insane throwing range has annoyed me since the beginning.

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Corporal
Re: Handgrenades[message #278728] Wed, 27 April 2011 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
I rather see it as a general problem: A maximum range of 35 is way too much. A more reasonable range would be 20, but only for someone with 100 strength and 100 breath. All others should have a reduced range along that line. For example, women usually have around 60 strength, what would then return in a range of 12 tiles. Standard male mercs have around 70 to 80 strength, what would give them maximum ranges between 14 and 16 tiles.

These would be values that make sense gameplay wise. Handgrenades are meant to be close quarter weapons and it should not be possible to throw them beyond the range of most ARs.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278732] Wed, 27 April 2011 19:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Throwing from a roof to the ground does increase range, so Ivan throwing further in that situation makes sense. And keep in mind that the "maximum range of 35" is only for extremely light "grenades". Even the standard mini-grenade doesn't have a max range of 35 because of it's weight. As I indicated, break light and flars have a 35, mini-grenades have a 25 and all the other grenades have a 20. And that all assumes max strength, full health, full breath, perfect conditions and standing. I'll acknowledge that throwing a frag 200m is a bit ridiculous, but that's simply a game play thing, just like a pistol being able to accurately hit targets 120m away. If we made grenades have a realistic range, they'd be useless. And if we lower the current maximums, more "average" mercs wouldn't ever have the opportunity to use grenades without hurting themselves in the process.

As far as enemy soldiers throwing extreme distances, I've not encountered that in my test games. Of course, I almost never see the enemy throwing grenades at me at all. The only "grenades" they ever hit me with are break lights which do have a pretty extreme range.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278793] Thu, 28 April 2011 13:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Quote:
As I indicated, break light and flars have a 35, mini-grenades have a 25 and all the other grenades have a 20.
No, as stated I had measured one of them throwing a smoke grenade over 25 tiles - not saying that this had been his maximum range.

IIRC a smoke grenade has a weight of 5. This would make for someone with strength 100:

iThrowingStrength = ( 100 * 2 + 100 ) / 3 == 100
iRange = 2 + ( 100 / (3 + 5 / 3 )) == 37

A strength of 50 would already be sufficiently to throw a smoke grenade over 25 tiles:

iThrowingStrength = ( 50 * 2 + 100 ) / 3 == 66
iRange = 2 + ( 66 / (3 + (5) / 3 )) == 26


ChrisL
As far as enemy soldiers throwing extreme distances, I've not encountered that in my test games. Of course, I almost never see the enemy throwing grenades at me at all. The only "grenades" they ever hit me with are break lights which do have a pretty extreme range.
Yes, I too wasn't aware that there is a problem with grenades until raising maximum vision range. The result is that the enemy sees me earlyer, more often, and at larger distances. This in general does the AI good and improves gameplay - if there was not that rain of grenades thrown from far beyond SMG range.

With normal JA vision range you wouldn't see an enemy throwing a grenade over 25 and more tiles because he isn't able to see your merc at that distance. Even when fighting at daytime most enemies in the late game wouldn't be able to fire a single shot, so the chance for seeing any of them throwing a grenade is extremly small.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278815] Thu, 28 April 2011 18:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Smoke grenade is ubWeight=6, at least according to the items.xml I'm using.

And I guess I'm not understanding your math cause "2 + ( 100 / (3 + 5 / 3 )) == 37" is not a true statement. That equation adds up to 23 (27 with rounding), not 37. And with a 50 strength the equation adds up to 16 (18 with rounding), not 26.

Also you have to remember to use the correct rounding. Because we're working with unsigned integers, the code strips out decimals at each step. So:

iRange = 2 + (100 / (3 + 5 / 3)) [5/3=1.667 which rounds to 1]
iRange = 2 + (100 / (3 + 1))
iRange = 2 + (100 / 4)
iRange = 2 + 25 == 27

Of course, since the weight is actually 6, the result should really be 22 at STR=100 and 15 at STR=50.

And I routinely play with visual range set to 15 (giving normal, unaided sight range of about 30 tiles) instead of the base 13 and I still don't get a rain of grenades. I've tried increasing the sight range beyond 15 but the only problems I noticed there were enemies wasting ammo trying to shot 40+ tiles with a pistol. No excessive grenade use, though.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278881] Fri, 29 April 2011 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
ChrisL
And I guess I'm not understanding your math cause "2 + ( 100 / (3 + 5 / 3 )) == 37" is not a true statement. That equation adds up to 23 (27 with rounding), not 37.
My bad: I made that 2+(100 / ((3+5)/3))

Quote:
Of course, since the weight is actually 6, the result should really be 22 at STR=100 and 15 at STR=50.
Which evidently not is the case because I had an enemy throwing a Smoke Grenade over 25 tiles.

Quote:
I've tried increasing the sight range beyond 15 but the only problems I noticed there were enemies wasting ammo trying to shot 40+ tiles with a pistol. No excessive grenade use, though.
So?

[Updated on: Fri, 29 April 2011 14:07] by Moderator

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278907] Fri, 29 April 2011 20:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Well, again, the "max range" is just the maximum accurate range. It's possible to throw a grenade a few tiles further then max (not sure what the absolute max actually is) but it's extremely inaccurate because there is that extra "chane/2" penalty that's tacked on top of all the other modifiers whenever you try to throw at a tile further then max range. Also, if you miss, the grenade will bounce in a random direction for a random distance so this also makes it possible for grenades to end up beyond max range.

As for the range thing, I was simply explaining why I don't increase my sight range much beyond 15. The AI doesn't seem to be able to handle the ability to see further then that because it doesn't make logical decisions on when to shot and when to move. But, ultimately, my point was that even when I have tested with higher sight ranges, I didn't notice alot of grenade use nor alot of grenades being tossed by npcs well beyond what the max range should have been.
As with all bugs, if I can consistantly recreate it, I can usually fix it. But in the case of this issue, I can't consistantly get an enemy soldier to throw a grenade from extrememly long range, so I can't trace out the problem. In fact, I was trying to point at that I don't really see this happening at all. The only "grenade" that I ever see flying at me from "extreme" ranges are break lights and those have something like a 37tile max range anyway. But if you have a savegame I can use that consistantly displays this behavior, send it to me and I'll work on it. Smile

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278908] Fri, 29 April 2011 21:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock is currently offline PasHancock

 
Messages:723
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
Does weight somehow effects on "Max Range"?

Has anybody tested it?

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278913] Fri, 29 April 2011 21:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Read above posts, PasHancock. Yes, weight had a direct effect on "Max Range".

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278939] Sat, 30 April 2011 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PasHancock is currently offline PasHancock

 
Messages:723
Registered:February 2011
Location: Estonia,Tallinn
I mean Merc Weight.








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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278941] Sat, 30 April 2011 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3228
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
since when do we have merc-weight?

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Captain
Re: Handgrenades[message #278969] Sat, 30 April 2011 14:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
ChrisL
As for the range thing, I was simply explaining why I don't increase my sight range much beyond 15. The AI doesn't seem to be able to handle the ability to see further then that because it doesn't make logical decisions on when to shot and when to move. But, ultimately, my point was that even when I have tested with higher sight ranges, I didn't notice alot of grenade use nor alot of grenades being tossed by npcs well beyond what the max range should have been.
My experience would rather be the exact opposite: I went up to 20 tiles. In my opinion this does the AI good because it has a habbit of running circles around the tile at maximum vision range from where it should be able to see the enemy in case of being shot at from an unseen opponent. This behaviour always is fatal because you end up with a dozend enemies circulating around a magical hotspot who never have a chance of seeing the enemy who is shooting at them because he is, for example, camoed and prone in high gras. That way a single sniper can clear a sector with 32 enemies at full daylight on his own; he just needs some flank protection.

A higher vision range doesn't end this behaviour, but in general the AI has a better chance of seeing the enemy while moving around, for example when rounding a corner in an urban sector. Even when the AI again becomes stalled around the "spotting tile", this one now is much larger distance of some 40 tiles, outside the range of most weapons.

Of course, this does lead to the enemy shooting at extreme distances too, but I would see an AI shooting with only little chance to hit an improvement over an AI never shooting at all.

The problem is map-design: in case a lot of enemies have a clear LOS to the edge of the map the player might get instantly pinned when entering the map. I am confidnent that smeagol's bigmaps together with a more careful placement of enemies can solve this.

So far it went good until the enemy became equipped with grenades in larger numbers. The first troop of blackshirts I run into in fact wiped out my team with a hail of grenades thrown from far beyond SMG range with high precission. And there is close to nothing you can do about it because at ranges of 30 and beyond you need a scoped rifle shot with full aimed single shots to hit. So, no chance to kill enough blackshirts in one turn to prevent them from throwing the next round of grenades.


Quote:
As with all bugs, if I can consistantly recreate it, I can usually fix it
I am not saying that this is a bug. As far as I see it, the game is doing what is intended by the code. I would rather say that the way grenades are calculated needs to be rethought.

Another thing I noticed is that the 13 tiles flat-range for my mercs seems to be the case when throwing a grenade while couched. Range while standing is higher (I usually don't have my mercs standing in battle, and getting up to throw a grenade is suicidal because you won't have enough APs to go couched again).

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278980] Sat, 30 April 2011 16:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox is currently offline Blue_Fox

 
Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
One thing i dont like is:
A merc with Demolitions Skill has 25% less needed to throw grenades.
Just saw an Elite running several tiles, throw 2 grenades(1 dummy) and run back again (105 AP) ?

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #278981] Sat, 30 April 2011 16:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3228
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
nope - bad programming - that is what i adressed above

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Captain
Re: Handgrenades[message #279166] Mon, 02 May 2011 19:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
Buns
Quote:
As with all bugs, if I can consistantly recreate it, I can usually fix it
I am not saying that this is a bug. As far as I see it, the game is doing what is intended by the code. I would rather say that the way grenades are calculated needs to be rethought.

Another thing I noticed is that the 13 tiles flat-range for my mercs seems to be the case when throwing a grenade while couched. Range while standing is higher (I usually don't have my mercs standing in battle, and getting up to throw a grenade is suicidal because you won't have enough APs to go couched again).
Whether it's a "bug" or not, I still can't "fix" it if I can't consistantly recreate the behavior. From what I'm reading in the code, and from what I'm seeing with my own experiences, grenade ranges are consistant for everyone whether we're talking enemies, militia or mercs. If you want to decrease the range at which grenades can be thrown, the easiest option would be to edit your Items.xml file and increase the ubWeight value for all your grenades by +3, +6 or even +9. This will reduce the max range.

And as I already pointed out, when crouching, the max throw range is reduced to 70% of normal.

I'll say one more time, the "red target" cursor does have a shorter limit and I have so far not been able to determine how that limit is calculated, other then to know that it DOES pull the value using the same "max throw range" function. It just uses that function in a way I'm not fully understanding right now. But the to-hit calculation is basically as I've described it in previous posts on this thread. And the only issue I can see with the entire procedure is that there is functionality for aiming which you can't actually do.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279211] Tue, 03 May 2011 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
ChrisL
And as I already pointed out, when crouching, the max throw range is reduced to 70% of normal.
"to" or "by"; or asked the other way round: how far is the range of your mercs throwing grenades when couched.

Quote:
I'll say one more time, the "red target" cursor does have a shorter limit and I have so far not been able to determine how that limit is calculated, other then to know that it DOES pull the value using the same "max throw range" function.
I wouldn't know a way to throw a grenade at a tile beyond the red target, so I take that as maximum range.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279302] Thu, 05 May 2011 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
To.
iRange = (iRange * 70) / 100;
This will multiply range by 70 then divide by 100 which is the same as multiplying range by .7

As for throwing beyond the red target cursur, I don't know of a way either. I'm just pointing out that the red cursor appears to be limiting range to less then what the max throw range function determines. I'm sure there is some equation or algorithm running that's used to determine how far the red cursor can appear, and I'm sure it's based on the max throw range function (I messed around with that function and got the resulting target cursor to have different limits). I just haven't figured out where that system is handled. I'm not so great with the cursor code.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279839] Fri, 13 May 2011 06:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Friendly Fire is currently offline Friendly Fire

 
Messages:74
Registered:January 2006
The result of the cursor problem is the AI fighters throwing farther than the best mercs.
Increasing the weight of grenades will not improve the situation.
Decreasing the strength stat of AI fighters would.

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Corporal
Re: Handgrenades[message #279846] Fri, 13 May 2011 09:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spinx is currently offline Spinx

 
Messages:34
Registered:February 2007
Location: Washington state
I have to say in my current games i have seen the Unerring accuracy of all AI my dark blue shirts included with Grenades. Its very frustrating when my team continually gets pelted with them and never do they miss from extreme ranges.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Handgrenades[message #279874] Fri, 13 May 2011 16:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gas is currently offline gas

 
Messages:8
Registered:May 2011
Location: Italy
Hello everyone, im not an expert sure and new to this forum, but its years im playing the game, and i would like to say I agree too about the weird AI granade launch behaviour from AI.
Personally ive seen this "mortar-like" granades throws from AI only in the last 1.13 version im playing, that is 3944 aimnas wf (the SCI).
The previous versions i was playing didnt have new traits and didnt have the "specialist" option in the INI file (last one for me was 3911), also i was playing 1.13 not WF with JA2 standard maps and mercs.
So i think its possible that those olimpic-ready soliders prolly come up from those "new" features.
I would like to add that this issue is not game breaking to me, but its a bit annoying expecially when you see the militia packed all in the same spot getting all banged with 1 granade from a sniping distance.

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Private
Re: Handgrenades[message #279885] Fri, 13 May 2011 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
Messages:605
Registered:March 2007
If I can't recreate the problem, I can't attempt to fix it. If someone has a savegame that consistantly reproduces an enemy throwing (accurately or not) a grenade beyond a range you think it should be thrown, making that savegame available to me would go a long way towards resolving the problem.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279891] Fri, 13 May 2011 19:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox is currently offline Blue_Fox

 
Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Enemies throwing grenades are annoying.
Why they choose for a grenade?

I never had these issue btw.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279905] Sat, 14 May 2011 02:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gas is currently offline gas

 
Messages:8
Registered:May 2011
Location: Italy
Blue_Fox
I never had these issue btw.

I think that you never had that issue cause you just consider it normal gameplay, as tbh if i had to write a wishlist of fixes/improvements this thing doesnt go in my top 10 sure.

I recall even in vanilla ja2 anyway the AI can throw granades in example from quite a distance diagonally into a window without any problem while as human player you cant do the same, prolly cause if you dont see the landing zone you cant see the red cross so you cant perform the throw, while the AI surely works bit different.
So i think some differences between the AI throws compared to the player come anyway from the original code and its part of the original gameplay.

What i think is just this behaviour may be more visible since there are the new traits.
the specialist enemy solider new option maybe can result into some elite demolition soliders with too much cth bonus or too much throwing range, or stats, or a mix of those.
Or even it can happen only with a specific kind of granade that maybe result lighter then it should.
But anyway i dont see better snipers or better something else then before, so duno its just an idea.
Ofc its just speculation as i didnt go to read the code and tbh prolly im not even able to do it Smile , but i think it could have some logic as idea.
Or there is another idea, wich is the enemy is using a mini grenade launcher with a bouncing grenade but graphically you see a normal hand throw (also the audio is not the one of a grenade launcher) so it could mislead to consider the throw manual as its visually shown while the game is actually calculating a launcher one... as when it happens the super throw the grenade seems to fly low and bounch on the floor reaching the target a bit like the mini bouncing granades do.

I can provide a savegame but there is not a high chance to see this if not playing for long i guess, cause its really situational.
It can happen to play 4 hours and never see a granade launch, even a normal one.
The place where i saw it more frequently is the NE sam site cause militia tends to pack in the sam entrance "tunnel" and the enemy AI seems to be more tempted to throw uber granades in this situation.
Anyway as i wrote also before its something i can confirm, but its not something that i consider game breaking or really an issue.

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Private
Re: Handgrenades[message #279908] Sat, 14 May 2011 03:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox is currently offline Blue_Fox

 
Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Not consider it as normal gameplay.
I just deal with it.
But still, i think the throwing range is correct, compare it with buildings.
Not let you fool you by fictive weapon range.

About packing tohether, that's even more annoying.
I think its possible to write some code to prevent militia & enemies to pack together. Limit the amount of militia/enemy in a circel/radius. Say 4 or 5 in a area of 9 tiles (4:9)
Same as New AI Elite dodge at night time light places.
So... i'm not develop anymore, but understand the logic of it.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279909] Sat, 14 May 2011 04:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Spinx is currently offline Spinx

 
Messages:34
Registered:February 2007
Location: Washington state
My biggest problem is not really the extreme ranges but the fact that EVERY single grenade and glow stick and what ever is thrown with such accuracy that it always does the signature 1 damage to a merc. That damage is not a problem its the fact that it means that the thrown weapon always lands exactly where its supposed to no chance for a bad throw (chance for a bad item sure) but never a bad throw.

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Private 1st Class
Re: Handgrenades[message #279914] Sat, 14 May 2011 09:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Blue_Fox is currently offline Blue_Fox

 
Messages:539
Registered:September 2006
Location: Netherlands
Well my enemies throw dummies sometimes.
I can hear them curse sometimes.

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First Sergeant
Re: Handgrenades[message #279923] Sat, 14 May 2011 11:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
lockie is currently offline lockie

 
Messages:3750
Registered:February 2006
Location: Scotland
Quote:
Poster: Blue_Fox
Subject: Re: Handgrenades

Well my enemies throw dummies sometimes.
I can hear them curse sometimes.


Not dummies , but broken .

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Captain

Re: Handgrenades[message #279925] Sat, 14 May 2011 11:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Logisteric

 
Messages:3228
Registered:December 2008
Location: B
dud - they are called dud

dummies would be for training purpose - not even redshirts are THAT stOOpid

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Captain
Re: Handgrenades[message #279930] Sat, 14 May 2011 13:29 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Buns is currently offline Buns

 
Messages:656
Registered:September 2010
Blue_Fox
But still, i think the throwing range is correct, compare it with buildings.
Not let you fool you by fictive weapon range.
A grenade is a weapon, so it needs to be compared to weapon range. When a grenade can be thrown over 30+ tiles it means it has a range beyond that of most assault rifles. Adding to that the extreme accuarcy with which the AI is throwing grenades it means you end up in a situation where the player is more or less helpless because you neither can throw grenades that far too nor can you shoot the enemy at that range unless you have a scoped long-range rifle.

When playing JA2 this problem usually would not be dramatically because standard maximum vision range is at 26 tiles, often shorter when being prone, using camo, fighting at night etc. When enemies have grenades your team would usually already be armed with good rifles equipped with scopes, may be even with grenade-launchers. An estimated 90% of all enemies you encounter wouldn't be able to shoot at all before you kill them, and the chance that one of the remaining 10% has a grenade and is throwing it from an excessive range rather is limited.

Nevertheless the problem in general remains: Due to the excessive range and exteme accuracy that seems to be common for all AI soldiers handgrenades are extremly unbalanced.

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First Sergeant
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