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| Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290092]
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Tue, 30 August 2011 23:21  
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 JMich |
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Messages:546
Registered:January 2011
Location: Greece |
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CellI'm confused about which ROF the weapon uses because different ROFs will result in different recoil effects. Faster ROF will smaller the difference between bullet #3,#4,#5 slower ROF will wider the distance between bullet #3,#4,#5. Actually, unless the ROF is really really high (meaning that the bullets leave before recoil is felt), the opposite is true. Consider the very slow rate of fire of 1 round per minute. Bullet is fired, recoil is felt, weapon is adjusted, second bullet is fired. Increase ROF so the 2nd bullet leaves just as weapon is adjusted to be back on target.
On the other hand, increase the ROF so the second bullet fires when the weapon is at maximum displacement. Before you have the time to adjust the weapon, the 2nd bullet kicks in and moves it even more.
CellCFF is also dependent on how fast/slow the weapon is in other words which ROF is given. SO higher ROFs will result in more bullets per reaction time. I made a suggestion how reaction time could look like with some pseudo calculation: http://www.ja-galaxy-forum.com/board/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=289846#Post289846
Its not only EXP or WIS which result in better reaction time its more or less DEX!!!
Oh man ... i will come back to this. ROF currently influences CFF by the tag bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP as mentioned earlier by ChrisL. So far, we do not have a formula to translate 900 RPM to x bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP, but still the tag bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP is based on ROF. So how many bullets fly before counterforce is applied is based on ROF.
P.S. I think that CFF and CFM were changed quite a bit from HR's presentation, so you'd have to find the other thread where it was discussed, but not sure where it currently lies.
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First Sergeant
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| Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290106]
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Wed, 31 August 2011 02:30
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| ctiberious |
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Messages:605
Registered:March 2007 |
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DEFAULT_APS and DEFAULT_AIMSKILL are APBP constants that the game uses to calculate default AP costs. That is, the AP costs the game displays when it doesn't have any merc/soldier data to use. For instance, if you see an AP cost listed when looking at a weapon you're thinking of buying from Bobby Rays or another shopkeeper. They are both set to 80 because that's what Starwalker used to calculate the S4T base values. And he used them because they were the original hard coded values that the game was programmed with (well, technically is was 20 for DEFAULT_APS when we had only the original 25AP system).
The M16 fires at 700-950rpm based on the wiki. That's 11.67 - 15.83 rounds per second. A combat turn is approximately 5 seconds long which means there are approximately 16 APs in a second (based on a defult of 80 APs) which means the M16 fires something like 1 round every 1.37 - 1.01 APs. Looking in the xml file, we see that the M16 has a bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP of 4. Which means we're telling the game that 1 round fires every 1.25 AP or about 768rpm. That seems to line up with a valid amount of deviation.
The Minimi fires at 700-1150rpm based on the wiki. That's 11.67 - 19.17 rounds per second. This means a Minimi fires something like 1 round every 1.37 - 0.84 APs. In the xml file the Minimi has a bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP of 5 which means 1 round per AP or about 960rpm. Again, that seems to line up with a valid amount of deviation.
So based on these two examples, I'm not sure how you justify saying it's "some kind of voodoo calculation".
Anyway, I'm not going to argue it with you. I'm simply reporting what's in the xls files. And I've already explained that the recoil system factors ROF based on the bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP value. If you think that value is wrong, fix it, and the recoil system will update itself automatically.
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| Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290170]
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Wed, 31 August 2011 23:10
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| ctiberious |
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Messages:605
Registered:March 2007 |
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S4T is the AP cost to fire and recover from a single round.
S4T is ALSO the AP cost to fire the first round in an autofire sequence, and to recover from the ENTIRE sequence. Each round after the first in an autofire sequence costs additional APs which are calculated using the bAutofireShotsPerFiveAP tag (which IS based on ROF).
S4T is ALSO the AP cost to fire the first round in a burst fire sequence, and to recover from the ENTIRE sequence. The remainder of the burst fire AP cost is generated using the bBurstAP tag. Presumably because there is a static number of rounds being fired.
You can see all this in the code. In Points.cpp, find the 'CalcTotalAPsToAttack' function. The first thing we do is set sAPCost to the results of a call to 'MinAPsToAttack' and if you look in there, guns use the equatino found in 'MinAPsToShootOrStab' which is based on S4T. So:
sAPCost = 'MinAPsToAttack' = 'MinAPsToShootOrStab' = 'S4T equation'
After we set the initial sAPCost, we look to see if we're firing the weapon in Autofire or Burst fire modes. If we're in autofire mode, we ADD the results of 'CalcAPsToAutofire' function to sAPCost and if we're in busrt fire mode we ADD the results of 'CalcAPsToBurst' function to sAPCost.
In other words, S4T is the number of APs it takes to fire "1 ROUND", and to recover at the END of the firing sequence. If you're firing more then one round (i.e., auto and burst fire) then the AP cost of the ADDITIONAL rounds is also added in. But those ADDITIONAL rounds are seperate from the S4T value. And, as such, rate of fire has no real bearing on the S4T value. S4T is strictly the "speed" of the weapon and how long it take to recover from the weapons recoil AFTER all shots are fired.
And, yes. I know it's perfectly feasible for exceptional marksmen to accurately empty multiple pistol mags in under 5 seconds. I know from my own experience that I can accurately fire (fully aimed, no less) more then 4 rounds from an M1911A1 pistol in 5 seconds even though the game says you can only fire an M1911A1 maybe 4 time WITHOUT aiming. Part of this is game balance. If you can accurately fire all (or at least a large part) of a mag in 1 combat turn, then most combat would be over in one turn. Another part is the "average" guy can't accurately burn through a 30rnd mag in under 5 seconds. And another part is the fact that your youtube videos are of people firing for demonstration purposes where no one is shooting back at them. All that and more is why we don't allow you to empty a mag into a target in 1 combat turn.
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| Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #290224]
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Thu, 01 September 2011 19:45
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| ctiberious |
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Messages:605
Registered:March 2007 |
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First, a merc with more APs doesn't fire a weapon any faster then a merc with fewer APs.
S4T is a "time based" activity meaning the weapon takes a finite amount of time to fire regardless of who is firing it. A 20AP merc takes just as long (time-wise) to fire a gun as a 100AP merc. Therefore, a 20AP merc might only have to pay 5AP to fire a weapon while a 100AP merc might have to pay 25AP to fire the same weapon. Understand, I'm just talking about actually firing the weapon. Not readying or aiming the weapon. S4T us the number of shots that can be fired in 20 seconds. A weapon with S4T=13.3 can be fired approximatly once every 1.5 seconds. A 100AP merc uses 20AP/second so requires 30AP to fire this weapon. A 20AP merc uses only 4AP/second and therefore only requires 6AP to fire the weapon. In either case, the same amount of "time" is spent.
On the other hand, readying and aiming a weapon (as well as most other actions like reloading, moving and looking around) are "speed based" activities. A merc with 100AP can do these actions faster then a merc with only 20AP. So if it costs 4AP to move a tile, a 100AP merc is fast and can move 25 tiles while a 20AP merc is slow and can only move 5 tiles. The same amount of time passes but the faster merc moves further.
And the reason we calculate S4T based on an 80MRK/80AP merc is we need some kind of base. Not only do we need this base for actual S4T calculations when a merc shots a gun, but we need a base when you look at a weapon in a shoppkeepers inventory when you're deciding whether to buy it or not.
And you can't use RoF in place of the base S4T because, again, S4T has nothing to do with a weapons rate of fire. I don't care if a weapon fires 100RPM or 10000RPM, the time involved in pulling the trigger (and recovering from the shot) isn't really going to change. Take an M16 (700-950rpm). Assume it takes 1 second to pull the trigger and recover. Now take that M16 to a magic gunsmith and have him tweek it so that it has a 1400-1900RPM rate of fire. It's still going to take 1 second to pull the trigger and recover from the shot. All you've done is increase the number of rounds that get fired in auto and burst fire modes. But actually pull the trigger and recovering isn't going to change.
And, as I've said, the AP cost for firing ADDITIONAL rounds in burst and autofire modes ARE based on ROF. They are simply seperate tags which get added to the S4T tag to determine the final AP cost. Take an M16 and fire it. Even in autofire mode if you fire just a single round, you're going to only pay the single round S4T cost. If you fire 2 rounds in burst/autofire mode, you're going to pay the single round S4T cost PLUS the auto or bust fire cost for 1 additional round. 3 rounds fired, you pay the single round S4T cost PLUS the auto/busrt fire cost for 2 additional rounds. Etc, etc.
Going back to my above example, the 700-950rpm M16 that takes 1 second to fire (let's say that equals 20AP) might need 22AP to fire a 2 rnd burst. That is 20AP for the single round cost (which includes recovery at the end of the shooting sequence) plus 2AP for the extra round fired. While the 1400-1900RPM M16 might take only 21AP. 20AP for the single round cost plus 1AP for the extra round fired.
And no BeVeR. I still haven't gotten to it. I have alot on my todo list and right now real life has been playing havoc with what free time I have. 
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| Re: New CTH system - Presentation[message #292802]
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Fri, 28 October 2011 03:07
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| Xarren |
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Messages:3
Registered:October 2011 |
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Hi guys, I've read through a lot of this, but I can't find seem to find any definition for the "Normal" range.
I understand that it is the range the weapon is meant to be fired at - but what exactly is that range? How do we find that range for specific guns?
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Civilian
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And i have no problem to do that meaning to find out which data is left. 
