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AI Vision Range[message #291152] Mon, 26 September 2011 18:56 Go to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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So imagine you've got a merc on the map. You know there are enemies out there somewhere but you can't currently see them. So you have your merc raise his weapon and look through the scope he's got attached. And there, X tiles away, an enemy appears. The scope increased the vision range enough that now, with your merc's weapon in a ready position, you can see the enemy. But maybe you decide that there isn't a good enough chance to hit at this range. Or maybe you just want to get into cover. Whatever the reason, you decide that rather then taking a shot, you want your merc to move closer to the target. As soon as you begin the move, your merc's weapon is moved out of the ready position meaning the target "greys out" to indicate the the target is no longer actually seen. But that's okay because you, the player, "remember" where the target was so you can direct your merc to move closer to the target.

The AI can do all of this, to a limited extent. The AI can (and does) ready it's weapons to take advantage of scopes. And the AI does decide whether a shot should be taken based on various factors (including whether the expected CTH is high enough). But unlike the player, as soon as the AI lowers the soldier's weapon, soldier no longer "remembers" where it's target was. Which means the AI can't simply move it's soliders into a better firing position. Litterally, the AI goes from "knowing" where a target is to not "knowing".

I think this gives players an unintended advantage. And I think there is a very simple way to resolve this. There is a function in the code called GetTotalVisionRangeBonus() which calculates all the vision range bonuses granted from all items. However, if a weapon is not in a ready position, scope bonuses don't get included. This is normally fine since we players can still remember what we see after we unready a weapon. I think if we add a condition specifically for AI controled soldier that causes this function to include scope bonuses for unready weapons, this would solve the problem of the AI not being able to "remember" what it "saw" and make decisions accordingly. The AI would still have to pay weapon ready ap costs in order to fire. It would simply get the advantage of always having it's scope bonuses for visibility checks.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291158] Mon, 26 September 2011 19:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Marlboro Man

 
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Sounds good to me. Be worth a try anyway to see what happens. Smile Anything helping with AI improvements is always a must have.

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Sergeant Major

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291159] Mon, 26 September 2011 19:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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One drawback of this would be, that every single AI-soldier with a scoped weapon would for ever (except he stores his weapon in inventory for close combat or the like) have narrowed vision acccording to the scope attached to his weapon.

I wonder if it is really that difficult to make AI "remember" where a player controlled foe was last seen (at least for the next turn)?
Because if i am not mistaken the AI does in fact remember where a shot was to be heared (e.g. at night) and closes in to that area to investigate.
Couldn't we recreate such behaviour for daylight vision as well?

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Sergeant Major
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291163] Mon, 26 September 2011 20:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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ChrisL
But unlike the player, as soon as the AI lowers the soldier's weapon, soldier no longer "remembers" where it's target was. Which means the AI can't simply move it's soliders into a better firing position. Litterally, the AI goes from "knowing" where a target is to not "knowing".
Woot? What about "gsLastKnownOppLoc" which stores locations of all last seen opponents for AI in the code?

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291268] Wed, 28 September 2011 17:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Pariah is currently offline Pariah

 
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Hoi Chummers,

Chrisl: If this works then would the AI be able to get Interruptions further out than the player's mercs?

Is there a way to limit how far away one has to be to get an Interrupt? Say 1/2 of their weapon range? Or 1/2 of their SightRange?

Thanks,

Eastwoodaen

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Corporal
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291295] Thu, 29 September 2011 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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I'm not saying this is the only solution. But it is a simple one and doesn't require any understanding of the AI code itself. And since I have basically no experience with the AI code, someone with more understanding would have to code in a "memory".

Yes, I suppose you could consider it a drawback that enemy soldiers would always get stuck with the tunnel vision for their higher powered scopes. But that's no more of a drawback then what players have. Players who ready a weapon have to deal with the same tunnel vision issue. Although, if you all think this permanent tunnel vision is a concern, it could be removed, or at least modified, for the AI.

And the AI wouldn't get interrupts any further away then a player with a readied weapon could get them. The catch would be that if the AI did get an interrupt and wanted to fire, it would have to have enough APs to ready it's weapon. We'd only be faking the system into thinking the AI weapons were always in a ready state for visibility checks. I'm not suggesting removing the ready AP charge for the AI.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291298] Thu, 29 September 2011 18:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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ChrisL
Yes, I suppose you could consider it a drawback that enemy soldiers would always get stuck with the tunnel vision for their higher powered scopes. But that's no more of a drawback then what players have.


Cannot agree on that. Player's drawback is less since his tunnelvision is not permanent. Whenever player's merc starts moving, his gun is lowered and he's immediately able to spot enemies that are in his wider normal perception without tunnelvision. Your intended permanent AI's scope vision would make it easier for players to sneak upon enemies from aside or the back.
I am not saying this would be a no-go regarding your intention, i just wanted to remind you/us of this fact. Smile

[Updated on: Thu, 29 September 2011 18:12] by Moderator

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Sergeant Major
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291301] Thu, 29 September 2011 19:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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Eh... hello?!? The AI "memory" is already there... The enemy soldiers already DO remember where, when and whom they saw.
Depending on the "personality", morale and other stuff of each soldier, the soldier deal with what he remembers in different ways. As far as I can tell, in most cases the enemy is trying to "pursue" your mercs if they spotted them up to 3 turns ago. They remember location of where they saw you and usually try to get there, calling reinforcements on the way.
However if their morale is too low, they beter sit and wait.

I am not sure what AI behaviour exactly you want to achieve.

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291302] Thu, 29 September 2011 19:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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@Sandro: Hmm. That's not what I keep seeing in the games tha I play. Admittedly, I'm not really up to speed on the AI code so trying to step through the decision processes tends to leave me with a glazed look in my eye, but what I tend to notice is the AI rarely, if ever, raises it's weapons simply to "look around" using scope vision bonuses, while Players will do this quite often. And if an AI does have a weapon in a ready state, and spots a target but doesn't have a CTH high enough to take a shot, as soon as it starts to move, it no longer seems to react as though it "remembers" where the target was. Yes, it'll know there was a target, but it won't necessarily move towards the target for more then a tile or two. Then it seems to act as though it knows there's a target "somewhere" but has no clue where it should move next to get into a better firing position. My change would simply allow the AI to always get enhanced vision range from scopes, so if it spotted a target, it could move towards the target as expected.

@Sam_Hotte: Actually, after another look at the code, the tunnel vision thing wouldn't be an issue. It's a completely seperate check that is unrelated to the visionrangebonus functions. The result should be that an AI soldier with an unready weapon would get it's usual 360 vision PLUS any scope visionrangebonus modifications in the direction it's actually facing. This does lead to one side effect, though. If the AI is carrying a weapon with a 10x scope, but the weapon isn't ready, the AIs forward arc would get the 10x scopes VRB without any kind of tunnel vision. In other words, in bright light the AI would get a +90% vision range in it's entire front arc. It would only be when the AI actually readied the weapon to fire that it's front arc would tunnel. Now, this might not be a completely unreasonable side effect as it could simulate the AI "panning" it's weapon back and forth along it's forward arc while the AI is moving around. Something players tend to do now. The AI simply has the advantage that it doesn't have to constantly pay the readyAP cost every tile or two like a player would.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291307] Thu, 29 September 2011 20:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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Then it's a problem of the generic AI, not (non)existence of its memory. If that is the case, I would rather think of other possible solutions. One would be to add the code to raise the weapon occasionally. I believe it should be doable easily.
The other thing we should check is if the memory is updated, the alert level of AI should be set to "black" when they see your merc, and finally we may check the gap in AI where the soldier doesn't advance to the spot of last known opponent.

Your solution may solve the issue, but it feels "cheaty". It may lead to odd advantages during combat for the enemy. I would prefer to attempt enhancing the AI rather than artificial solutions.

First thing to try would be to add a code for the AI to regularily raise their gun and maybe turn around. And then see what'll happen.

But maybe I don't understand the problem correctly. I personally rarely noticed a problem of this sort, but that's just because everyone uses his own tactics.

[Updated on: Thu, 29 September 2011 20:31] by Moderator

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291317] Fri, 30 September 2011 02:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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Sure Sandro. Do you know how to code the AI? If so, great. Could you take care of this issue? If not, don't you think some solution is better then none? I've already said that I don't know the AI code so I can't make changes to that system. The best I can do is the suggestion I've already made, which is nothing more then a work around since I don't know of any AI coders currently able to look into this.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291322] Fri, 30 September 2011 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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Um, actually I do have some experience with the AI... and have done some AI stuff before, so I can try.
I wouldn't suggest those things without being able to code them myself.

There was no offense meant, if my post felt annoying or rude, I am sorry.. sometimes my mediocre English doesn't allow me to express myself as politely and gently as I would like to.

All respect.

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291331] Fri, 30 September 2011 14:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
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ChrisL
@Sam_Hotte: Actually, after another look at the code, the tunnel vision thing wouldn't be an issue. It's a completely seperate check that is unrelated to the visionrangebonus functions. The result should be that an AI soldier with an unready weapon would get it's usual 360 vision PLUS any scope visionrangebonus modifications in the direction it's actually facing. This does lead to one side effect, though. If the AI is carrying a weapon with a 10x scope, but the weapon isn't ready, the AIs forward arc would get the 10x scopes VRB without any kind of tunnel vision. In other words, in bright light the AI would get a +90% vision range in it's entire front arc. It would only be when the AI actually readied the weapon to fire that it's front arc would tunnel. Now, this might not be a completely unreasonable side effect as it could simulate the AI "panning" it's weapon back and forth along it's forward arc while the AI is moving around. Something players tend to do now. The AI simply has the advantage that it doesn't have to constantly pay the readyAP cost every tile or two like a player would.


OK, good to know this. Objection retreated. Very Happy

Maybe it should just be tried out, if your suggested enhanced vision would infact have the intended effect on AI.
TBH, i doubt it: As Sandro said, it seems that AI already does remember where, when and whom they spotted. Despite they tend not to close in as consequently as you expected. To create your intended effect, current AI must differentiate between case A "i do see enemy" and case B "i saw enemy before (and do remeber where and when)". I do not know if that is the case atm.

So, probably trail end error is needed for us who don't know to much of the AIs coding ...

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Sergeant Major
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291345] Fri, 30 September 2011 21:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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It's cool Sandro. I was simply pointing out that I had considered some of what you suggested but didn't have the ability to code it myself. This is simply a solution I know I can write for a problem I've not only seen, but know other people have experienced (based on forum posts).

While I haven't commited this "fix" yet, what I've written does include an INI flag so the feature could be turned off if the result wasn't acceptable. That said, if Sandro is willing to check out the AI and make some changes, or at least verify that the AI is doing exactly what it should be doing, then I'll hold off commiting this feature for the time being.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291361] Sat, 01 October 2011 01:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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I'll make the AI to regularily raise their scoped weapons and scan around. I'll adjust it to be based on if the enemy knows you are in their sector or not etc.
That's actually a few minutes of work. (I expect to make it tomorrow.)

Then we can see how it goes. Ok?

Btw: I have briefly checked the enemy soldier behaviour, if he's gonna pursue my merc he just saw or not (not through scope though)... And he advnaced to the spot or at least got closer in about 50% of cases.
Well, according to the AI code, it really depends on the individual soldier "personality", "orders", morale and wisdom.
To me, this looks ok. Smart guys do not berserk, as they want to survive. Some have been given orders to "hold position", some are simply too cowardly to go there.
The one guy I tested was a regular. I'll check it on elite next.

One thing I noticed, was that quite often a debug message of invalid action or invalid item handle occured. Dunno what impact does it have on the AI in the end.

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291513] Tue, 04 October 2011 18:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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Maybe what we need is simply to increase the "memory" across the board. Make it a bit more likely that a regular enemy is going to move closer to a target to get into a usable firing position. I'm not saying that every regular soldier should charge a player. And I agree that morale, personality and orders should still be factored. But if a soldier "can't" fire because the AI says there is not enough of a chance, but moving a couple tiles closer would change that, then the AI should move the soldier so it has a chance to shot.

I've encountered numerous occassions where 10+ enemy soldiers will waste pretty all their APs moving back and forth between a couple different tiles just outside of unenhanced vision range, never taking a shot. And after the battle I've come to find that many of these soldiers had scopes they should have been using. My assumption has always been that the AI couldn't "see" my mercs because the soldier never brought his weapon into a ready state to get the scopes vision range bonus and therefore the cth calculations the AI got all said there was no chance of hitting when, in fact, there should have been at least a modest chance.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291515] Tue, 04 October 2011 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1966
Registered:March 2009
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ChrisL
Maybe what we need is simply to increase the "memory" across the board. Make it a bit more likely that a regular enemy is going to move closer to a target to get into a usable firing position. I'm not saying that every regular soldier should charge a player. And I agree that morale, personality and orders should still be factored. But if a soldier "can't" fire because the AI says there is not enough of a chance, but moving a couple tiles closer would change that, then the AI should move the soldier so it has a chance to shot.


I don't think that's something to do with "memory" but instead with those red shirt's attitude. I agree with you, that there should be some sort of higher bias to have mediocre red shirts more willing to investigate/attack.

Quote:
I've encountered numerous occassions where 10+ enemy soldiers will waste pretty all their APs moving back and forth between a couple different tiles just outside of unenhanced vision range, never taking a shot.


That's because they don't know (exactly) where you are. Yes, that's my observation as well. Especially when they are in player's enhanced spotting range and are interrupted - it seems as if AI makes many soldiers retreat in their steps quite often when these soldiers get spotted and interrupted by player without being shot at (due to player's lack of APs or accurate range). That is, at least, if AI does not know player's exact position (e.g. if they heared just the shooting so far or the soldier that did spot the player was immediately killed/disabled after the spotting)

Quote:
And after the battle I've come to find that many of these soldiers had scopes they should have been using. My assumption has always been that the AI couldn't "see" my mercs because the soldier never brought his weapon into a ready state to get the scopes vision range bonus and therefore the cth calculations the AI got all said there was no chance of hitting when, in fact, there should have been at least a modest chance.


I have seen enemies (mostly elites IIRC) that had their weapons raised and spotted around - even one who had no scope attached at all. Weird.
From my observation, red shirts do only raise their weapon if they are in a sniper role, black shirts do aim along the barrel more regularly (compared to red shirts; it's still quite seldom compared to players).

So my conclusion is, that indeed the AI should take more advantage of their scopes and should be more willing to take offensive action (instead of being slaughtered from afar) OR retreat and stay in cover handing the iniative over to player. If the player is forced to leave his tactically favourable (sniper's) position in order to drive the enemy out of cover - that should enhance gameplay as well, IMHO.

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Sergeant Major
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291538] Wed, 05 October 2011 01:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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ChrisL
Maybe what we need is simply to increase the "memory" across the board. Make it a bit more likely that a regular enemy is going to move closer to a target to get into a usable firing position. I'm not saying that every regular soldier should charge a player. And I agree that morale, personality and orders should still be factored. But if a soldier "can't" fire because the AI says there is not enough of a chance, but moving a couple tiles closer would change that, then the AI should move the soldier so it has a chance to shot.
I see, I'll check that and give the soldiers a possibility to raise their scoped guns to try to get the extra vision in these cases. (I may already coded that, but I am not sure at this moment, have to look.)

Sam_Hotte
I don't think that's something to do with "memory" but instead with those red shirt's attitude. I agree with you, that there should be some sort of higher bias to have mediocre red shirts more willing to investigate/attack.
True. I'll check if I can do that.

Sam_Hotte
... it seems as if AI makes many soldiers retreat in their steps quite often when these soldiers get spotted and interrupted by player without being shot at (due to player's lack of APs or accurate range).
This is something I just stumbled on few days ago when coding the improved interrupt system. There was a small glitch in soldier path search when being interrupted (and not shot at,) where the soldier's planned path was erased for no reason. I fixed it in my code, so the fix may make it to main trunk when I finish the IIS.

Sam_Hotte
So my conclusion is, that indeed the AI should take more advantage of their scopes and should be more willing to take offensive action (instead of being slaughtered from afar) OR retreat and stay in cover handing the iniative over to player. If the player is forced to leave his tactically favourable (sniper's) position in order to drive the enemy out of cover - that should enhance gameplay as well, IMHO.

The problem is how the AI recognizes if it's the one situation or the other - when retreat, and when charge.


Btw. I have coded that thing - added many chances for enemies to use their scoped weapons to scan around. I may send it to RoWa, but it should be tested first, which I don't have time for.
Anyway, anyway, I will first check if I can solve the specific issue ChrisL mentioned.

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291541] Wed, 05 October 2011 02:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sam Hotte

 
Messages:1966
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Location: Middle of Germany
Sandro
Sam_Hotte
I don't think that's something to do with "memory" but instead with those red shirt's attitude. I agree with you, that there should be some sort of higher bias to have mediocre red shirts more willing to investigate/attack.
True. I'll check if I can do that.

Cool! thumbs up. Smile
Sandro
Sam_Hotte
... it seems as if AI makes many soldiers retreat in their steps quite often when these soldiers get spotted and interrupted by player without being shot at (due to player's lack of APs or accurate range).
This is something I just stumbled on few days ago when coding the improved interrupt system. There was a small glitch in soldier path search when being interrupted (and not shot at,) where the soldier's planned path was erased for no reason. I fixed it in my code, so the fix may make it to main trunk when I finish the IIS.

I'd definitely vote for this addition (better: correction) even if your IIS should for whatever reasons not be realized. That alone would make AI more challenging/offensive in tactical IMO.

Sandro
Sam_Hotte
So my conclusion is, that indeed the AI should take more advantage of their scopes and should be more willing to take offensive action (instead of being slaughtered from afar) OR retreat and stay in cover handing the iniative over to player. If the player is forced to leave his tactically favourable (sniper's) position in order to drive the enemy out of cover - that should enhance gameplay as well, IMHO.

The problem is how the AI recognizes if it's the one situation or the other - when retreat, and when charge.

True. But i did not mean that AI should make such overall decisions. I meant: If AI decides that a specific soldier is not going to investigate/attack/flanking because of his attitude, lacking morale or whatever THEN it would be great if this specific soldier would not be awaiting certain death at his current place but be moved to cover or any defensivly favorable place if available. E.g. move into a building and stay inside, preferably spotting through door/windows or the like.

Unfortunately i do not have the slightest idea if and how that would be codable for you or somebody. Embarrassed

Sandro
Btw. I have coded that thing - added many chances for enemies to use their scoped weapons to scan around. I may send it to RoWa, but it should be tested first, which I don't have time for.
Anyway, anyway, I will first check if I can solve the specific issue ChrisL mentioned.

Great! Thanks a lot. Cool Smile

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Sergeant Major
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291578] Wed, 05 October 2011 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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Not sure how difficult it would be, but if you seperate these AI changes from your IIS project, you could upload these AI changes alone to the dev branch and we could then proceed to get the changes tested seperately from your IIS work. That way if they work, we can get them released quickly and if they don't they won't interfere with the release schedule for your IIS project.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291580] Wed, 05 October 2011 18:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wanne (aka RoWa21) is currently offline wanne (aka RoWa21)

 
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ChrisL
Not sure how difficult it would be, but if you seperate these AI changes from your IIS project, you could upload these AI changes alone to the dev branch and we could then proceed to get the changes tested seperately from your IIS work. That way if they work, we can get them released quickly and if they don't they won't interfere with the release schedule for your IIS project.


Correct Chris, you got my vote Smile

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Sergeant Major

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291583] Wed, 05 October 2011 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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Smile Truth is, I already (kinda) finished the Improved Interrupt System, only some minor things around remains to do. What I need right now is to test it. However that's exactly what I have no time for with the loads of projects on my desk.
Should I commit the IIS too? It's optional feature anyway.

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #291584] Wed, 05 October 2011 22:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ctiberious is currently offline ctiberious

 
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To the dev branch, yes, I would. If you think the code is ready to go into testing, I think that's the point of the dev branch.

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First Sergeant
Re: AI Vision Range[message #291590] Wed, 05 October 2011 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sandro is currently offline Sandro

 
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Alright then. I'll prepare it.

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Master Sergeant

Re: AI Vision Range[message #293377] Sun, 13 November 2011 12:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
powerhouse11 is currently offline powerhouse11

 
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is it just me or the AI has extended vision range? i remember once, my Barry with NVG1 got interrupted by a seargeant who got no NVG

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Private 1st Class
Re: AI Vision Range[message #293521] Mon, 14 November 2011 17:19 Go to previous message
usrbid is currently offline usrbid

 
Messages:1506
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Yo jedzf, NVG might be a little broken in the latest unstable if you are playing that. You can check the properties of your NVG for a tunnel view value, I believe it was 50%. Check your field of view by holding down the End key and while holding it down change the NVG and see how the area changes.

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Sergeant Major

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