Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!!
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295091]
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Tue, 13 December 2011 21:04  
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 dinglehopper |
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Messages:134
Registered:January 2008 |
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DepressivesBrotdinglehopperA lot of people still use OCTH, smeagol even makes OCTH the default for aimnas and though there is an unoficial NCTH patch for aimnas it is not set up right. Any data-side restructuring of 1.13 has zero impact on AIMNAS or any other mod with its own item set.
Correct, but if we make it impossible or really hard to balance the game for both NCTH and OCTH the modders will be far more reluctant to do it, they will simply pick one and that will be it. So aimnas will essentially be forever OCTH, UC and DL will likely move to NCTH only, and anyone who wants to play those the other way will be SOL.
DepressivesBrotdinglehopper But it completely breaks OCTH, mostly because OCTH is based on range more than anything, NCTH is not. Actually, what it does is break with the stupid Vanilla progression of everyone going to war with pistols. It bothers a lot of people, hence the popularity of alternate enemy gun choices with a more sensible premise. Btw, AIMNAS progression is in fact pretty close to an NCTH model. You'll encounter rifles and smg's in Omerta and old MGs not long after. The only faction that'll have a problem with it is the die hard, Vanilla at all costs crowd.
I disagree with it being close to a NCTH ideal model as headrock explained the ideal. The NCTH aimnas patch is actually what i used to tinker with. I believe the coolness levels were not messed with for the NCTH patch. You get pretty much all the pistols by coolness 5, only the g11 pdw is a 6 and ucp is a 7 (which really didn't make any sense). I made the g11 and ucp both 10, the five seven 9 and pretty much doubled the rest and went back and ticked a few down or up a cooless to fill in the odd coolness levels. The end result is a few of the really crappy handguns stayed at 1, the rest all changed, many drastically. And the pistols was by far the easiest to do. To get a decent spread like Headrock suggests, a lot of changes are necessary in aimnas and every other item set i have peeked at.
DepressivesBrotdinglehopperWhat i think would replace them is the enemy would get to choose anything from the current coolness level or maybe sometimes one or two coolness levels up or down. I actually think that makes sense anyways, if you can buy it on bobby rays, shouldn't diedranna and her men be able to as well? Nope, it doesn't. It's an entirely different thing if you want to buy 3 rifles for a private company (/ LE / SF) or need to equip an army.
Well, that depends on the army. If it is regulars, then yah, they are all issued weapons and the issued weapons are really similar across the board. But arulco doesn't stike me as a regular army situation, it seems more like she has a mix of mercenary groups, regulars, and pressed irregulars. Mercenaries bring their own weapons, and irregulars typically use whatever they can get their hands on.
DepressivesBrotdinglehopperI admit i know little about the drop tables, I almost always play with enemy drop all turned on. The drop tables that are used when drop all is off just give general percentages like 'armor has a 30% chance of dropping' - they need not concern us. Well that is good news.
[Updated on: Tue, 13 December 2011 21:14] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295093]
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Tue, 13 December 2011 21:22
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| DepressivesBrot |
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Messages:3658
Registered:July 2009 |
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dinglehopperI disagree with it being close to a NCTH ideal model as headrock explained the ideal. [...] The coolness is only relevant for BR, look at the EnemyGunChoices.xml, pistols from 0 - 10, rifles from 0 onwards, squad automatics from 1 onwards, SMG's and shotguns over the whole range.
Also, the merc starting gear has decent weapons even for the low mercs. So, aside from the stuff you can buy, it is in fact very close.
dinglehopperBut arulco doesn't stike me as a regular army situation, it seems more like she has a mix of mercenary groups, regulars, and pressed irregulars. Mercenaries bring their own weapons, and irregulars typically use whatever they can get their hands on. We could argue this forever, lets just drop it for now.
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295102]
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Wed, 14 December 2011 00:35
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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On the Coolness issue:
There is apparently a growing problem with making data for OCTH and NCTH, and this issue was discussed even before I started working on NCTH. My solution was actually the least elegant one: I was hoping to make NCTH _mandatory_. Of course this would mean keeping it out of 1.13, and hoping that public pressure alone would keep it alive and/or eventually force its merger into 1.13 as a mandatory feature as well. Of course this was a pipedream, because eventually it was integrated into 1.13 as an option (with arguable results).
Since OCTH and NCTH are currently coexisting, there seems to be no escape from making the XMLs separate. Items.XML already looks like a big mess, and I would imagine that new modders are discouraged by the fact that they have to learn which tags they need to edit to affect one system and not the other (and some tags are shared... making it even more confusing). Separate XMLs would at least solve this problem.
Of course, I am not really concerned about mods being split along the NCTH/OCTH line either. UC is now setting a fine example of how an NCTH-centric mod can do wonders with NCTH, and poor Smeagol is coming under increasing pressure to adapt AIMNAS to NCTH as well (to his detriment sadly, but to the benefit of everyone else). I hope that once NCTH proves itself as the superior system in UC, this pressure will increase and apply to all mods - thereby achieving my original nefarious intents.
Until then however, it's clear that modders wanting to appeal to both crowds WILL need to make two sets of XMLs, but with two separate XMLs it'll also be easier for them to appeal to one crowd or the other - and to make mods in the first place due to separating all these factors.
However I do intend to take this one step further by introducing item templates. Essentially, this will be an XML containing "proto-items", which can then be built upon very simply. As a result, one set of templates could then be used to create surprisingly short OCTH-Items.XML and NCTH-Items.XML files without too much work involved.
On a completely different issue:
ReVurtWhen I click on the eye-con or any of the filter options next to it, I get a crash-to-desktop.
I think this is related to the same problem I just fixed where the filters crash the game if there are no hidden items. Please let me know if it does work now.
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295150]
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Wed, 14 December 2011 20:20
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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I'll take any bug reports related to the mapscreen (and/or inventory), description box and NCTH. If you think a bug MIGHT be related to HAM 5, post it here.
[Updated on: Thu, 15 December 2011 03:55] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295198]
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Thu, 15 December 2011 08:16
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| knightofni |
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Messages:96
Registered:August 2011 |
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Since my HAM5/AFS game is on hold (due to movement bug reported above), i started a new game with UC 1.13 RC5 + HAM5
AI Comments (go Warmsteel !)
x I've noticed several times that enemy soldiers that couldn't see me (so probably in 'Red' mode, because i was hunting for the last few guys) are were just crouching somewhere. I arrived behind them - out of APs - end turn, but then they just stayed crouching, while i'd expect them to turn around to check their surroundings (and fire at me)
x Two blackshirts took cover between a wall and a truck (that's UC)- which was parallel to the wall. That means they essentially had no line of sight - except a tiny little bit on the sides, so it was a child's play to punch them to death and steal their loot.
Note : not sure whether those guys were in red or black mode, though likely black.
x AI is very idiotic when assaulting an open door with a merc behind. On of my merc was alone (wounded, left behind, weakest of my team), guarding a door, and around 6 to 7 redshirts came as reinforcements. Four turns in a row they sent one guy only - which i killed -instead of attacking as a group.
x A merc is in a room, and somehow the AI knows he's in, as i can hear them gathering next to the wall. However it can take them 5 to 10 turns to actually try to attack. Interestingly, as soon as i exited combat mode, the AI understood where the door was, and entered in the room within 10 seconds of combat mode exit. Situation happened twice in pretty different layouts.
Gameplay / NCTH comments
[Game stage : late game armour, assault rifles with no scope]
[Note : when i use the word "accuracy", i refer to the CTH, not the weapon's accuracy]
x [still] No point in using rifles (may change with scopes). Accuracy is not high enough to compensate for high AP costs.
x [still] No point in using long barrel shotguns. Because of their high AP costs and average accuracy, slugs miss too often to be useful. I had some pretty decent results using buckshot + duckbill. Damage is not that high against armoured opponents, but suppression / AP removal is quite satisfying. Unfortunately, very high reload costs and low mag make it a inferior choice. I changed to a simple skorpion during combat, and got better results.
Nota : This comment doesn't apply to short barrel shotguns, who perform pretty fine at a very short range.
x Haven't suffered much from grenades, but did die once due to a trapped container. Actually, that's probably the first game where I use more grenades than the ennemy, but no frag grenades yet (very recent availability, will use soon)
x MP's with stock perform very well in most combat situation - except at max visual range (20+). Auto-fire, relatively
accurate, low AP cost, ammo is plentiful. All my mercs still carry one (Skorpion, PM-63, Agram, ...) and use them as often as their main weapon, if not more.
x AR's are absolutely necessary for long range firefights. Their other advantage over MP's is their harder hitting caliber. However, once closing below say 15-20 tiles range, MP's (with stock) are a superior choice in most situations. Another disadvantage of AR's is that ammo is hard to get by, which pretty much restrict you to single shots and burst in emergency. This means that i can hit / suppress much more effectively with my MP's - especially considering HAM5 rework of autofire.
x SMG's are pretty good in (very) early game due to their slightly longer range over MP's, but i've stopped using them, as they are outclassed by AR's at long range and by MP's at short to medium range. The only SMG is still use is the MP5 due to its extremely low handling value + burst ability.
x AR's with foldable stocks behave more or less as high-end SMG's, therefore not terribly useful. I just kept using an AKMSU - but that's because i've started the game with kobra sights, and UC is quite greedy with attachements so far (i'm so happy when i get a flash suppressor ! 0_o)
To reduce a bit MP's efficiency, i've made the following modifications to CTHconstants :
RANGE_COEFFICIENT = 0.8
GRAVITY_COEFFICIENT = 10.0 // So bullets don't fall off so fast
This way most MP's max effective range is around 15-16 tiles, while this doesn't significantly affect AR's. I hope this will give back some use to SMG's, but haven't tested this yet. Ideally we should have MP's at short range, SMG's at mid range, and AR's at max visual range.
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295199]
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Thu, 15 December 2011 08:46
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| knightofni |
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Messages:96
Registered:August 2011 |
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Sorry for double posting. Managed to upload the saves related to previous bug report.
Version used : AFS, HAM 5.5
knightofniBug report
- Game breaking bug : right after picking up Hamous, all mercs (even the Heli)are unable to leave their square.
Save #1
knigtofni- Very annoying bug :
1. When boxing in San Mona, Darren accused me of cheating when i didn't. Couldnt get out of it, solution was to kill 'em all.
Save #2
knightofniSOLVED2. After killing kingpin and his cronies, i stole his money and reappeared in some house in San MOna. In the fight that followed, there's an unavoidable CTD. Solution was to leave the combat (go back to mine). Entering San Mona again (but not from underground) allowed me to finish them without CTD.
Save #3
knightofni- Minor Annoyances
1. In CHitzena, some ennemies have attacked my militia. They are still in the city, but no fighting is happening. I haven't been there to check (the mine ran out, so my interest in the city too)
The last bug can be seen in Save #1
[Updated on: Fri, 16 December 2011 03:25] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295246]
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Thu, 15 December 2011 22:29
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| Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006
Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:Sorry for double posting. Managed to upload the saves related to previous bug report.
The saves might be helpful - unless you're using UC, in which I might not be able to test properly.
My guess is that some of these errors are related to something Wil473 mentioned after vehicle externalizations. If so, they stem from 1.13, not HAM, and will only be fixed when HAM is updated to the latest code (or merged into 1.13, whichever comes first). I have no estimate on when either of these things will happen, unfortunately. For now HAM tests only itself.
As to the others, they may or may not stem stem from HAM code, sounds like they might (and I stress, might) be caused by the Green Eggs, which means I'll have to alert Warmsteel - if and when he shows up. Again, if I can load the savegames properly, I'll see if I can solve these bugs myself - but that could take a while.
One important question though is whether you are still encountering these bugs with the latest HAM 5 version, because you reported them a while ago so I have to be sure.
Quote:[still] No point in using rifles (may change with scopes).
I'm hoping that Wil473's latest coolness reshuffle may solve this issue, because rifles without scopes are and should be pointless. Some rifle-specific scopes, like the ones we have for the older weapons (in vanilla 1.13 it's the ZF-42 or No.32), should appear early on, making the rifles that can take them worth using as DMRs in the early game. With little or not variable power, and no ability to install them on any automatic weapons, you'll have an early-game weapon for accurate fire at sight-range (and possibly beyond-sight-range).
Quote:[still] No point in using long barrel shotguns.
Perhaps shotgun pellets need to give normal suppression. Now that autofire is much more prevalent, shotguns should be allowed to suppress better, in keeping with the move towards realism. That is, when each pellet would cause as much suppression as a single bullet (or, at least, more than it does now). Similar to how fragmentation works.
[quote]
Quote:thanks Rock
I enjoy the new features very much
You're welcome. Let me know if anything goes wrong with them.
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295251]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 00:48
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| reVurt |
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Messages:61
Registered:March 2007
Location: The Great White North, eh... |
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HeadrockI could change it easily, but the question is: Should it even be possible to sell $0 items at all?
I'm fine with selling $0 items for $0. If I'm selling a bunch of items, I'm generally just trying to get rid of inventory clutter anyway. It's like, "Here Manuel, to thank you for taking these ten surplus flak jackets off my hands for a jar full of pennies, I'm going to throw in a free authentic WWII-era entrenching tool and my very own pet rock. You're a credit to your country, Manuel."
You could trash the $0 items, but that requires yet another step, in that you have an extra category of things you can't sell but have to remove using a slightly different mechanic. Getting rid of a bunch of stuff all at once via the selling interface is fine.
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Corporal
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295267]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 04:02
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| knightofni |
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Messages:96
Registered:August 2011 |
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HeadrockThe saves might be helpful - unless you're using UC, in which I might not be able to test properly.
My guess is that some of these errors are related to something Wil473 mentioned after vehicle externalizations. If so, they stem from 1.13, not HAM, and will only be fixed when HAM is updated to the latest code (or merged into 1.13, whichever comes first). I have no estimate on when either of these things will happen, unfortunately. For now HAM tests only itself.
As to the others, they may or may not stem stem from HAM code, sounds like they might (and I stress, might) be caused by the Green Eggs, which means I'll have to alert Warmsteel - if and when he shows up. Again, if I can load the savegames properly, I'll see if I can solve these bugs myself - but that could take a while.
One important question though is whether you are still encountering these bugs with the latest HAM 5 version, because you reported them a while ago so I have to be sure.
Saves using AFS (HAM optimized) from wil.
I've checked, one bug has been solved (the combat CTD, probably linked to Green Eggs). Others are still alive and kicking.
As you said, it might be from this vehicle externalization. In that case, i guess you won't get much feedback for the late game, as we usually pick up the ice cream truck. I guess you could put a warning message in the first post, or maybe tai can prepare a new SCI ?
Headrock
knightofni[still] No point in using rifles (may change with scopes).
I'm hoping that Wil473's latest coolness reshuffle may solve this issue, because rifles without scopes are and should be pointless. Some rifle-specific scopes, like the ones we have for the older weapons (in vanilla 1.13 it's the ZF-42 or No.32), should appear early on, making the rifles that can take them worth using as DMRs in the early game. With little or not variable power, and no ability to install them on any automatic weapons, you'll have an early-game weapon for accurate fire at sight-range (and possibly beyond-sight-range).
I guess a mix of coolness & handling wil solve this.
Headrock
knightofni[still] No point in using long barrel shotguns.
Perhaps shotgun pellets need to give normal suppression. Now that autofire is much more prevalent, shotguns should be allowed to suppress better, in keeping with the move towards realism. That is, when each pellet would cause as much suppression as a single bullet (or, at least, more than it does now). Similar to how fragmentation works.
I've got mixed feelings about this. Already (pre HAM 5.5) shotguns give a lot of suppression - that's the only use i've found to them actually (as i was reporting). More of a good thing is not especially useful. To me it's more an issue of AP to draw, AP for single shot. I think that would make them useful at short range, while keeping their long range weaknesses.
UC opponents are using a lot of shotguns, i'll try to get shot at to get a feel for this change (if this is too much or still ok)
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295276]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 08:08
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| knightofni |
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Messages:96
Registered:August 2011 |
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HeadrockWell if not for suppression, we could try raising their damage output...
That could help, but still, the main argument [according to me] against long barrel shotguns as they are now is the following :
1) Relatively inaccurate, so better used at short-range (10 tiles and less).
2) In short range situations, you often need to move to engage your target (enter a room, take a turn in a corridor)
3) Because shotguns are so AP intensive, in most cases, after moving you won't be able to shoot more than one time.
4) Whatever the suppression / damage, being a close from the enemy and having only one shot is a recipe for a dead merc, sooner or later - as your luck will run out.
As a summary, because of the way damage works (breath / ap / accuracy reduction), i'd rather have 80% chance to do around 10-20 damage (with autofire on a MP), than 40% chance to do 50 damage.
Or maybe i don't know how to use them properly.
MonadeTry MAM out!
I really like the work that MJOne has done with MAM on damage / penetration / tumble values, but it does share one of the main flaws of vanilla 1.13 with NCTH, in that handguns are the best weapons until scopes. Which is quite annoying (and i guess one of the main reason behind the complains about NCTH).
But having a .44 magnum do real damage, and all those tiny calibers do, well, tiny damage, damn that is so good !
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Corporal 1st Class
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295339]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 23:38
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| reVurt |
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Messages:61
Registered:March 2007
Location: The Great White North, eh... |
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HeadrockThis version includes an important bugfix: Without it, it is impossible to open the Description Box in the sector inventory UNLESS you're in combat (i.e. the opposite of what should be).
And given that no one has reported this blatant bug, I can only surmise that no one is playing HAM 5.5.......
Playing, sure, but in fits and starts. You know, I don't recall being able to right click on an object in sector inventory before to get its stats. Typically I've just picked it up first. Is that a newish feature, because IIRC, at some point right clicking on anything in the sector inventory closed the screen, and like the trained monkey I am, I've learned never to do that!
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Corporal
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| Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295382]
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Sat, 17 December 2011 23:28
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada |
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Since I'm testing AFS v3.60 RC2 HAM 5 Optimized, I tried the already known to be setup Variable Power Scope from a while back. I can confirm that attached to a weapon, the VP Scope transforms that worked several versions of HAM ago are now now causing a CTD.
EDIT: odd, after I loaded up HAM 5.4a to see when the CTD started (no problems), HAM 5.5a is no longer CTD'ing... I'm going to reboot and see if I can make HAM 5.5a CTD (perhaps it was a fluke that my first attempt to demo the CTD, CTD for reasons other than the item transform).
EDIT2: Got it to CTD now both with HAM 5.4a and 5.5a, if you do the transformation of the scope immediately on loading the save game no CTD; but if you do a non-attached item transformation first (ie. a stock transition, or simply removing the VP Scope and changing its magnification while in the merc's hand) and then do a item transformation of an attached VP scope the CTD happens. I've got a few older HAM 5's so I'll see where this started.
EDIT3: somewhere between HAM 5.2a and HAM 5.2.2a this bug crept in. In HAM 5.2a, the scope can be pulled off the weapon, transformed as a standalone item, put back on the weapon and transformed as an attachment without problems. Reloaded HAM5.2.2a and the same sequence of events will CTD the game. I don't have any .exe's in between 5.2a and 5.2.2a to test with, so I'm going back to cleaning up AFS.
[Updated on: Sun, 18 December 2011 00:01] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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It took me a few seconds to realize what all the red numbers meant and by then I had tried to move an item in the sector inventory. A sticky ALT plus the LEFT CLICK of the mouse to select the item and SOLD! I'd like to think I won't make the same mistake again, but...
