Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » Flugente's Magika Workshop » New feature: Overheating Weapons
| New feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295171]
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Wed, 14 December 2011 23:53 
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Overheating weapons
Hi, as I felt the feature was missing, I've implemented the feature of overheating weapons. Basically, every shot fired from a gun increases its temperature. On higher temperatures, the gun jams more frequently. Above a certain threshold, the gun also degrades much faster. The temperature is lowered every turn (turnbased)/5 seconds (realtime).
The increasing/decreasing of temperature works for all weapons in a game, both for mercs and soldiers. It also works for weapons in the sector inventory, in any sector, regardless of merc presence (so a weapon dropped by an enemy will cool down).
You can edit a gun's heat generation and its jam and damage thresholds via Weapons.XML:
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<usOverheatingJamThreshold>4700.0</usOverheatingJamThreshold>
<usOverheatingDamageThreshold>5300.0</usOverheatingDamageThreshold>
<usOverheatingSingleShotTemperature>50.0</usOverheatingSingleShotTemperature>
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<barrel>0</barrel>
<usOverheatingCooldownFactor>125.0</usOverheatingCooldownFactor>
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<temperatureModificator>1.03</temperatureModificator>
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<MERGE>
<firstItemIndex>1377</firstItemIndex>
<secondItemIndex>1075</secondItemIndex>
<firstResultingItemIndex>1075</firstResultingItemIndex>
<secondResultingItemIndex>1377</secondResultingItemIndex>
<mergeType>8</mergeType>
<APCost>50</APCost>
</MERGE>
...
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[Tactical Weapon Overheating Settings]
;******************************************************************************************************************************
; In this section you can modify global settings for weapon overheating.
;******************************************************************************************************************************
; Maximum 'temperature' a gun can have
OVERHEATING_MAX_TEMPERATURE = 40000
; Should a 'thermometer' for guns and replacable barrels be displayed?
OVERHEATING_DISPLAY_THERMOMETER = TRUE
; A weapon's cooldown factor is multiplied with this, accounting for worse heat reduction due to attachments
OVERHEATING_COOLDOWN_MODIFICATOR_SILENCER = 0.8
OVERHEATING_COOLDOWN_MODIFICATOR_BARRELEXTENDER = 0.85
OVERHEATING_COOLDOWN_MODIFICATOR_FLASHSUPPRESSOR = 0.97
; If a barrel is not in someone's inventory, it cools down a little bit better
OVERHEATING_COOLDOWN_MODIFICATOR_LONELYBARREL = 1.15
...
I have also edited the INIEditorJa2Options.xml for descriptions.
I tested this feature, it was built upon the currently newest source in the trunk, revision 4946.
Temperature is displayed via a thermometer on the left side of a weapon. Temperature is additionally shown in the description window, in the same colour as the thermometer.
This feature can be turned on and off in the 'Preferences' menu.
Due to code changes, there is no savegame compatibility, as I have made changes to the OBJECTTYPE class.
Changes in version 1.2.1:
- I've changed a few weapon values, no more stock values.
- The thermometer is now deep red while the temperature rises, and becomes brighter as the jam threshold is violated
- I've added caliber-specific replacable barrels for all machineguns (so, 5 different barrels)
Update on 6.3.12:
Changes in version 1.2.2:
- icons for everything overheating-specific added
[Updated on: Thu, 07 September 2023 11:15] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295261]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 02:41 
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Thanks for your praise  I hope it will be useful.
@ Off Topic:???
You mean this was actually implemented before?????
What???
ARGH!
.
.
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:yikes:
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:roulette:
sigh.
Oh well. Never mind.
Hmm. Why wasn't that merged to 1.13 base then?
Well, no it isn't gun specific. You can fill in specific values for every gun in Weapons.xml, like in the file referred to in the first post. So for example you could raise the temperature of a single shot for heavy sniper rifles, or let some guns cool down much faster. Or lower the usOverheatingDamageThreshold, so that a gun will degrade much faster.
However, I haven't yet played a campaign with it, so i am at the moment unsure about the best values for each and every weapon. I also do not have that much knowledge about firearms, but I'm sure some people around here do
Feel free to suggest ideas for weapon specifics.
I'd very much like to also these values to the UDB-Box, so one can actually see them ingame. However, all space in there seems to be already occupied. As the code there is not the easiest, I'll have to ask to Headrock about some tips for it sometime.
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295282]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 11:23
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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I had experimented with displaying under the 'General' tab, unfortunately there isn't enough space there, and i shy away from implementing a scrolling bar there.
But knightofni's idea is good. What I didn't like about the 'Advanced' tab at first were those icons for prone/crouching/standing, I'd rather have the ones for '0', '+/-' and '=' like in the General tab. But (idea): it should be possible just put in a new header line, I guess. Hmm. Not a bad idea. I guess I'll try it out. Good man.
BTW: how do you design these small symbols for UDB? I know they are read from .STIs, and I can actually see those with STIedit... but how do you add a symbol correctly? I tried it once, but the transparency was broken. Is there any guide or something?
Concerning integration into some other project: I'd be very happy to. However, I don't know if anyone else besides me has tested this yet.
The one thing I would really like to know is if there is any slowdown in lategame. Currently, all weapons in inventories are cooled down, this includes your mercs and any militia/enemies loaded. But also, all weapons in sectors (those that have been created - so those you can actually see in any sector) are cooled down too. This happens in HandleEndTacticalTurn - which is also called in real time (about every 5 seconds). So I basically check for every item if it is a gun ( and some other checks) and if it is, its temperature gets lowered. I don't know if this could be a problem (speedwise) in late game, when there are thousands of items (and hundreds of guns) lying around. If it is I might have to simplify that function.
But I built it so that once you disable the feature, it is completely deactivated (weapons neither gain or lose any temperature, nothing concerning temperature more gets displayed, and the jamming-code is back at 'classic' behaviour. I basically made a
if ( gGameSettings.fOptions[TOPTION_WEAPON_OVERHEATING] )
{
...
}
around all new code. In that case the only difference are to 'normal' behaviour are some new weapon stats, those 'if'-checks and a slightly longer OBJECTTYPE. So i don't think there should problem - after all, one can simply turn this off until I find a solution, should there be a problem.
I guess the very first step to integration, wether in AFS or any other mod, would be me checking this into an svn branch. Whom should I contact in this regard?
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295295]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 14:51
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Hi Monade,
I had thought about replacable barrels. However, I've never made attachments before. I have no idea how that works. But I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, yes.
Problem1: Even if the heat would be displayed at the barrel, you'd still have to give some sort of indicator on the weapon itself. Otherwise the player would be scratching his head about why his 99%-status M16 is jamming all the time. Displaying something like that only in the EDB-Box won't do (it is annoying if you constantly have to open a soldier's inventory and check the weapon stats while in a firefight).
But yeah, I had thought about replacable barrels: You would change a barrel and the weapon would inherit the temperature of the new barrel.
Problem 2: In that case the attachment 'barrel' needs to have a temperaure too, and cool down too. I think in that case all attachments would have to get a new variable 'temperature' (currently only weapons have that). You cannot use the status, in case you would use that status for weapon reliability. Propably not a problem, but worth mentioning.
Problem 3: I do not think that one could change barrels in the field for all weapons. From my time in the Bundeswehr I remember that the MG3 had an easily replacable barrel (the machinegunner always had a spare one in the field). The P1's barrel could also be easily replaced. But the G36? Nah, that barrel was fixed inside the stock. You'd have to replace half the weapon. In the field of course. I guess there has to be some way for the mechanics...
So, I think only a few weapons (mostly MGs) would have replacable barrels.
I think one could solve that by adding a flag 'HasReplacableBarrel' to all weapons. By exchanging, the temperature would then 'move' to the barrel.
Quote: Its faster to change (if you add certain barrel types and combine them with the weapon system) for a modder than alter every single weapons heat/cooldown mechanism.
Hmm. That would mean kinda 'universal' barrels, like one for all 7.62x51mm weapons, and the like. Wouldn't be realistic (but then, the universal barrel extender/silencer/Flash Suppressor isn't either). Not a bad idea. But even if I'd do that, it would take some time, as I have no clue about attachments.
Quote: If the weapon overheats are those merc better visible/spottable at night?
No. Would that really be applicable? I mean, do firearms glow in the dark when they are fired long enough?
Quote: Instead of a jam can you integrate a simple blowup (status decrease to 1%) of the weapon system? :>
That is already implemented. Once the temperature is above usOverheatingDamageThreshold, it degrades much faster. If you want that, but don't want it to jam more often, set usOverheatingJamThreshold to a really high value.
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295307]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 16:34
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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MonadeFlugenteI had thought about replacable barrels. However, I've never made attachments before. I have no idea how that works. But I don't see why it wouldn't be possible, yes.
ITs not really difficult you need a barrel picture for a wrok-a-round take the "extended barrel" and add a new entry in the attachmentslot.xml as far as i know with the responsible cooridnates. Some explainations can be found in Warmsteels attachment modification.
Thanks to smeagol:
FlugenteProblem1: Even if the heat would be displayed at the barrel, you'd still have to give some sort of indicator on the weapon itself. Otherwise the player would be scratching his head about why his 99%-status M16 is jamming all the time. Displaying something like that only in the EDB-Box won't do (it is annoying if you constantly have to open a soldier's inventory and check the weapon stats while in a firefight).
Hm yes sure. But otherwise if you explain how your systems work with this notification i think players wont have so much problems to figure out why the weapon refuses to work. At the point did you choose Gun Jams as a work-a-round?
At first didn't jam the guns. They would just overheat:
- they would not fire (like jammed guns)
- they could not be unjammed, you'd have to wait for them to cool down
- a red sign saying 'OVERHEATED' was displayed, similar to the current 'JAMMED'
But I changed that, because I thought that a gun not working because of excessive heat kinda was what a jam was in the first place.
MonadeFlugenteBut yeah, I had thought about replacable barrels: You would change a barrel and the weapon would inherit the temperature of the new barrel. Keep on doing it! 
FlugenteProblem 2: In that case the attachment 'barrel' needs to have a temperaure too, and cool down too. I think in that case all attachments would have to get a new variable 'temperature' (currently only weapons have that). You cannot use the status, in case you would use that status for weapon reliability. Propably not a problem, but worth mentioning. I'm not a coder or have any experience in coding stuff so this question is maybe a bit retarded. Is it so hard to add an xml tag or whatever tag for a barrel attachment/item which is combined with the status bar? Further more will set when the weapon refuses to work or maybe blowup if a critique point is reached.
You can't add an xml-tag ingame. What I meant was simply that you'd have to add a variable for temperature for all attachments, so propably all items. At the moment, it is just there for weapons. It is not a problem, its just that, well, memory needed for all items gets bigger. I don't know how much of an issue that is at the moment.
Adding such a variable is easy. I just wanted to raise awareness to the memory-issue
MonadeFlugenteProblem 3: I do not think that one could change barrels in the field for all weapons. From my time in the Bundeswehr I remember that the MG3 had an easily replacable barrel (the machinegunner always had a spare one in the field). The P1's barrel could also be easily replaced. But the G36? Nah, that barrel was fixed inside the stock. You'd have to replace half the weapon. In the field of course. I guess there has to be some way for the mechanics...
So, I think only a few weapons (mostly MGs) would have replacable barrels.
Even the MG3 needs some time and the barrel replacement time can simply set in the attachments.xml xxx.
I guess the APcost would just be the basic cost for changing an attachment. Differentiating that would be quite complicated, I guess.
Monade
Additional this barrel "overheating" make more sense for automatic weapons only even if single fire weapon can theoretical overheat its different to automatic weapons but thats just my opinion.
You mean additional heat for firing in automatic mode? Will have to think about that.
MonadeFlugente
Hmm. That would mean kinda 'universal' barrels, like one for all 7.62x51mm weapons, and the like. Wouldn't be realistic (but then, the universal barrel extender/silencer/Flash Suppressor isn't either). Not a bad idea. But even if I'd do that, it would take some time, as I have no clue about attachments.
Nono you can add nearly "infinite" amounts of barrels to the game (items.xml) and set them as x. And cause not each and every barrel is made from the same materal just a few are required. And those few barrel can easily set to the weapon system via the attachments.xml. You know what i mean?
I'm not sure I understand the difference. So you want to have a few, say, 10, different barrels, right? And each one of those should be applicable to every weapon? 'High-End' to 'Low-End' barrels?
I'd propose something kinda like that, but only like one barrel per caliber. That'd still be a lot of items, though...
MonadeFlugente
No. Would that really be applicable? I mean, do firearms glow in the dark when they are fired long enough?
Yes IRL it takes some time. Have a look: - On which values calculated? but for a game it would be well an additional feature or difficulty even its a bit surreal.
Flugente
That is already implemented. Once the temperature is above usOverheatingDamageThreshold, it degrades much faster. If you want that, but don't want it to jam more often, set usOverheatingJamThreshold to a really high value.
Perfect
Sam_HotteIn very darkness the adapted human eye is capable of seeing the "gray glow" of about 400
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295329]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 19:49
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| Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004
Location: Canada |
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Perhaps I'm missing something, but doesn't the extra damage and increased weapon jamming potential already cover the heat related stoppages feature being discussed? Is there really a need for a separate mechanism to stop the gun when it overheats?
EDIT: by the way, my three projects already have merger based barrel changes. I am interested in seeing how the temperature feature is handled during item transitions. Specifically there are a few different ways properties are transferred during item transitions right now for item status:
1) The folding stock system in-place with my mods, similar to the one Smeagol seems to be working on too, is based on being able to transform one item from one index to another on command. In the case of the folding stock, when the gun turns into is alternate stock form (index X to index Y transition) the built-up temperature should stay with the weapon (like damage does right now). The USE merger is the only merger that preserves an objects damage stats between item index transitions.
2) The Quick Change Barrel system on the other hand, depends on the item X to index Y transition changing the items status. The Easy merger has the resulting item(s) ending up with the average status of the two original items.
3) Finally there is the COMBINE merger which simply takes one item to "refill" the status of another.
4) EDIT2: forgot about HAM 5 item transformation, will need to eventually examine how the temperature properties of a specific object are handled with an item transformation.
Basically, what I'm saying is that once the next HAM 5 Optimized version of AFS is out, I will be in a position to experiment with this feature. Just need a complied .exe, I suppose the optimum solution would be for this feature ends up in a near-future HAM or a rev4778+ SCI...
[Updated on: Fri, 16 December 2011 20:09] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295336]
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Fri, 16 December 2011 22:17
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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I haven't done anything concerning merges, so I'm interested in that behaviour, too.
I've just compiled version 1.1. New features :newstuff: :
- Ammo-type specific factors can be specified in AmmoTypes.xml. They increase or lower the temperature for each shot.
- weapons/ammo values are now integrated in UDB (see pictures in first post).
Only thing missing in UDB are new icons. As I'm a terrible artist, it would be very nice if someone could draw those icons. Volunteers?
The AmmoTypes.xml, a new .exe and a new .patch file are in my folder specified in the first post.
wil473 Basically, what I'm saying is that once the next HAM 5 Optimized version of AFS is out, I will be in a position to experiment with this feature. Just need a complied .exe, I suppose the optimum solution would be for this feature ends up in a near-future HAM or a rev4778+ SCI...
 I'm happy to help. However, I'm not here tomorrow, I'll be back on Sunday or Monday. However, if you really want to integrate the stuff, everything is inside the ftw11.patch.
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #295873]
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Thu, 29 December 2011 02:22
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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I have implemented replacable barrels. If defined a new merge type and a barrel item, it is now possible to exchange barrels. I had to define define a temperature value for all items, though.
Upon merging, the temperature of the gun and the barrel are exchanged. Just what it should do.
I still have to make different barrels for different calibers, won't be a problem though.
At the moment, a temperature value is stored on all items. I don't see any other way. Luckily, his value is only used when increasing temperature on firearms and on cooling down. As I only have to look for guns and items that are flagged as barrels, this shouldn't be a problem.
A problem is that the weapon overheating characteristics (I'm thinking of the jam and damage thresholds) are stored on the weapon. This doesn't leave room for any specifics between different barrel types! You can't have high-quality vs. low-quality barrels that way.
Problem 2: The only way I can display temperature on the barrels would be either temperature/OVERHEATING_MAX_TEMPERATURE (which will not tell the user much about the relation to the weapon-specific temperature thresholds) or as a number value, which I do not like so much ( I like it better when you only have an very rough estimation about temperature, like it is on the weapon).
Problem 3: This way barrels aren't really attachments. Problem is that if they were, you'd have to ensure that a weapon without a barrel attachment can't fire at all. Coding that would b possible, but I'm not sure it would be a useful feature.
Otherwise these attachments would have to be inseparable, but exchangable :gaga:
I haven't uploaded this yet, but I will do that soon (preferably someone will have clever idea concerning this problem, and answer me )
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #298503]
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Sat, 11 February 2012 00:36
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 LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Flugente! This! You! Big hugs!
It was a pain to read through this thread before commenting and praising your work. I love it. I have always wanted this and I'm always talking about machine guns needing a boost. Here we go, overheating, finally. Damn. I guess it has been one of my countless feature requests as well. You're awesome.
First off, please make temperature visible as a slim, red bar next to the slim, yellow bar that is the weapon's condition. This is basically what I have always envisioned. No bar visible when the gun is cool. A tiny bit of red visible when it has been fired several times. Filled to about half when the gun has been fired a lot in autofire. And when the red bar is at the top of the weapon icon, you've already managed to sustain autofire for several magazines.
As for overheating speed, I would NOT recommend trying to copy real life behaviour. Yeah, cool, a real gun can fire 200 rounds with ease, great. But firing 200 rounds in JA2 is something you can't even manage to do in the small timeframe you've got. I say an automatic rifle isn't supposed to fire anything more than a 30rd magazine in rapid succession before being very hot. That's what machine guns are for. Those on the other hand should definitely be able to chew through an entire belt before overheating and cool down a lot faster. They're mostly designed with an open chamber anyway.
As for exchanging barrels, this sounds neat but I want to emphasize that you shouldn't really bother thinking about complexity in the meaning of having different kinds of barrels with different effects as then you would dig deep into the realm of weapon customization. There has been a neat thread about weapons consisting of tons of attachments from pistol grip to handguard, barrel, gas piston, you name it, called Truly Customizable Weapons. That would be amazing in combination but unless it's actually going to happen, don't bother thinking much about it. Focus on weapons getting hot. Mh-mh.
As for criticism: Shuddup. First off, it's not only about realism being added where it would be desperately needed. It's about balancing weapons as well. There are so many factors that determine a weapon's quality and performance and most of them have been left out in JA2 in order to facilitate the entire programming and gaming process. Problem is we don't really have a good weapon balance and assault rifles rock the house while machine guns are... well. If you feel like you need the challenge, you can equip one of your guys with one. While mobility is certainly far better when wielding an M4, sustained, accurate fire, as has been pointed out, should not be possible. That's what squad assault weapons and light machine guns are for. Assault rifles only bridge the gap between rifles and machine guns, allowing for high flexibility. With heat being relevant, you can't just use any rifle with closed chamber to wreak havoc. You'll have to bring along an appropriate gun for the job you want done.
Also, there is no actual micromanagement involved. You fire the gun as usual and it will cool down in time. If you keep firing full-auto, it will get hot and start degrading faster, leading to more jams but nothing you don't already know from the game. Except if this feature is really going to include blowing up and all that stuff. It mostly means that if you play Rambo, you'll have to maintain your gun a lot more. And if it gets hot, pull out your sidearm and wait for it to cool down. I doubt the feature will actually be predominant in a way that you'll have to time your shots and compare weapon cooldown values.
As for visibility: Sure, hot steel emits light. But this is far too complex and again digs into something that should never be touched. Some guns have an open barrel that will be fully visible, others barely show the muzzle. Then there's the aforementioned thermal shielding and the fact, that IR goggles don't actually make you see heat. And what if my machine gun is really hot and could be visible in the dark? Can't I cover the handguard with a t-shirt? And what about the smoke and steam it creates, won't they ... and if I have it on a sling, how's the visibility gonna get modified? This leads to all kinds of issues I wouldn't want. Like tracers lighting up their surroundings which they actually don't. Long story short, I wouldn't want heat to cause anything but weapon jams. And you shouldn't drop a gun if it gets too hot either. Or create gloves for an MG3 barrel change. It's too much.
Concerning the UDB, I think only the amount of heat generation and reduction should be relevant. Thresholds and gradients and all that, that doesn't concern the player. I know that a gun gets hot, I know it'll take damage. I won't check if I'm still below 250 heat units because I wouldn't do that in reality either. There needs to be an indicator of a weapon's ability to steam off so I know which weapon to rely on for sustained fire.
Flugente, I love you for making this. Long time. Hugs and imaginary cake, please get this thing done.
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #300017]
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Thu, 23 February 2012 01:02
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| LootFragg |
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Messages:349
Registered:August 2009
Location: Berlin, Germany |
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Flugente, I've started a game with your changed files some days ago. I haven't come far yet, Omerta and around only. But I like what I've seen so far. I have rarely made a gun overheat yet, didn't have enough opposition, but it seems to me you found a good balance between heat being noticeable but not an annoyingly overpowered feature.
I haven't thoroughly playtested everything and I won't. Checked some values to find out about the concept and they look pretty good. I like that assault rifles have higher values than shotguns and other weapons due to the stronger bullet and more compact design. Also like that tracer rounds have a downside now by producing more heat.
Examples
Blah
Fired short SMG bursts and the guns were still on low temperature but with a visible bar, about 50-60%. Controlled bursts mixed with some suppressive fire are absolutely possible and the heat doesn't prevent you from shooting a lot. Even after fighting down a dozen enemies the AUG Para would become hot but not jam. A little more action and the gun would've overheated.
I managed to jam a Kashtan 9x18mm firing two magazines full-auto out of combat, just dabbling around. Pretty cool. It's very possible to fire a good amount of ammunition, so the feature does definitely not stand in the way of suppressing people but it's there and noticeable. I couldn't keep firing it because I ran out of ammunition. I put weapon progression to the maximum value and the first enemy patrol just south of Omerta had pimped out M21 sniper rifles and such.
Burnt through several stacks of 12g shells but a shotgun just won't overheat. Nice. I assume this can be achieved with automatic shotguns and large magazines.
I found an HK53 and some 5.56mm mags and emptied them in the wilderness. Despite enemy guns not being in perfect condition, the gun chewed through the first two magazines before overheating and starting to jam on almost every shot. It was a pain in the arse to fire off the remaining ammunition as the gun just wouldn't want to work anymore. It is now at 50% condition and as I'm taking my time to write and do other things in the meantime, it's still critically overheated.
Thanks for adding the heat bar, nice way to see how hot a gun is without having to open a window.
- If you can, move it a few pixels to the left, closer (right next) to the condition bar, leaving more space for the ammo count. This is a beta feature so integrating it properly might involve redrawing the underlying background and moving the already hard to read ammo counter further to the right but for now it overlaps with it.
- Change the colours to be less bright, darken them a bit so they don't stand out as much. They may get brighter the hotter a gun gets.
- Please change the colour scheme to be always reddish (maybe starting from orange-yellow, gradually becoming orange and red) because green-blue-white-something feels like something rather positive. The increase in temperature is already reflected by the size of the heat bar.
- Maybe colour shouldn't be proportional to the bar size. A full bar could be of a half dark, reddish colour, increasing in brightness and colour intensity as the weapon gets hotter and hotter even if the bar can't get any bigger.
The bar size limit could then be the heat threshold and the colour would tell you how far beyond that threshold the actual temperature is.
Bugs and such
I noticed the heat bar colour of hot guns becoming half red half white after a while of cooling down, then quickly disappearing. The top was red, the rest faded into grey. When I checked the UDB, the bar updated and the red part was gone. The lower half (medium temperature) stayed there until I checked the UDB again, finding the temperature to be very low and the bar gone when leaving the UDB. So this doesn't get updated properly in real-time.
I noticed the Ruger Mini-14 5.56mm having only as much heat increase as a pistol (80). Should probably be more but yah, I assume weapons haven't been thoroughly balanced yet. I didn't expect it. But some are, depending on caliber and all. Well done.
As I have stated before, I consider the damage and jamming thresholds somewhat irrelevant in the UDB. They don't seem to differ from gun to gun, you don't see the current temperature as a numerical value and I don't see them as suitable values for comparison. The only use for them would be to see extreme deviations like in a gun that is extremely heat sensitive or one that is almost immune to overheating. Or maybe calculate how many rounds can be fired before the gun overheats but well. I'd rather want a rough indicator of the weapon's heat tolerance. What I want to know: Are there guns whose jam / degrade thresholds would definitely not be proportional? Like, a machinegun that keeps firing until it breaks or something? Because otherwise, if these are somewhat proportional, I would combine them into a heat tolerance value in the UDB. It doesn't matter what's going on behind the scenes but one value would be appreciated. BUT I imagine it's rather handy to have all values displayed as long as the feature is still being tested. As a sort of final polish I'd make it look good by decreasing the amount of info shown.
Apart from all the icon stuff, I'd put ammo specific heat stuff after a separator or on the Advanced page, making sure to keep it apart from the values that indicate a bullet's destructive potential. It's a feature like AET rounds decreasing condition, good to know but not of primary relevance when checking out ammunition.
Suggestion
How does the entire heat stuff get calculated? The jam threshold means this is where the gun starts jamming due to heat? And the hotter it gets the more likely it is to jam? Anyway, I'd say lower the threshold and make a non-linear function (if you have one right now) that increases jam probability progressively the hotter the gun gets. So you'll have a smooth curve.
A really cool feature would be increasing the red colour value of the icon but I don't think it's possible to play around with graphics that much, is it?
That's it for now, I'll keep playing with that version.
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| Re: Feature: Overheating Weapons[message #300036]
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Thu, 23 February 2012 04:31
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| Flugente |
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Messages:3509
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany |
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Hi Lootfragg,
that's a thorough analysis, thank you.
LootFraggFlugente, I've started a game with your changed files some days ago. I haven't come far yet, Omerta and around only. But I like what I've seen so far. I have rarely made a gun overheat yet, didn't have enough opposition, but it seems to me you found a good balance between heat being noticeable but not an annoyingly overpowered feature.
I haven't thoroughly playtested everything and I won't. Checked some values to find out about the concept and they look pretty good. I like that assault rifles have higher values than shotguns and other weapons due to the stronger bullet and more compact design. Also like that tracer rounds have a downside now by producing more heat.
Examples
Blah
Fired short SMG bursts and the guns were still on low temperature but with a visible bar, about 50-60%. Controlled bursts mixed with some suppressive fire are absolutely possible and the heat doesn't prevent you from shooting a lot. Even after fighting down a dozen enemies the AUG Para would become hot but not jam. A little more action and the gun would've overheated.
I managed to jam a Kashtan 9x18mm firing two magazines full-auto out of combat, just dabbling around. Pretty cool. It's very possible to fire a good amount of ammunition, so the feature does definitely not stand in the way of suppressing people but it's there and noticeable. I couldn't keep firing it because I ran out of ammunition. I put weapon progression to the maximum value and the first enemy patrol just south of Omerta had pimped out M21 sniper rifles and such.
Burnt through several stacks of 12g shells but a shotgun just won't overheat. Nice. I assume this can be achieved with automatic shotguns and large magazines.
I found an HK53 and some 5.56mm mags and emptied them in the wilderness. Despite enemy guns not being in perfect condition, the gun chewed through the first two magazines before overheating and starting to jam on almost every shot. It was a pain in the arse to fire off the remaining ammunition as the gun just wouldn't want to work anymore. It is now at 50% condition and as I'm taking my time to write and do other things in the meantime, it's still critically overheated.
Very good. Those values were just my first guess. Please give insight if you think some values are inconsistent with the rest, I'll add them to the archive so everybody can benefit from that.
LootFragg
Thanks for adding the heat bar, nice way to see how hot a gun is without having to open a window.
- If you can, move it a few pixels to the left, closer (right next) to the condition bar, leaving more space for the ammo count. This is a beta feature so integrating it properly might involve redrawing the underlying background and moving the already hard to read ammo counter further to the right but for now it overlaps with it.
- Change the colours to be less bright, darken them a bit so they don't stand out as much. They may get brighter the hotter a gun gets.
- Please change the colour scheme to be always reddish (maybe starting from orange-yellow, gradually becoming orange and red) because green-blue-white-something feels like something rather positive. The increase in temperature is already reflected by the size of the heat bar.
- Maybe colour shouldn't be proportional to the bar size. A full bar could be of a half dark, reddish colour, increasing in brightness and colour intensity as the weapon gets hotter and hotter even if the bar can't get any bigger.
The bar size limit could then be the heat threshold and the colour would tell you how far beyond that threshold the actual temperature is.
Unfortunately, I can't move the bar more to the left. I have to place the it inside the box (I basically draw over the item picture, just like all other displays (ammo count, firemode etc..) do. The status bar is actually not a part of that, its separate. I could, however, make it thinner (not sure if that'll look good) or jsut move the ammo counter.
Hmm, I was actually rather proud of the colour scheme (I basically mapped the overheated percentage to an rgb value). However, it does seem a bit... ugly. Your idea with of bar that only changes colour if it is above a threshold is good, kinda a two-level indicator. I'll have a look.
LootFragg
Bugs and such
I noticed the heat bar colour of hot guns becoming half red half white after a while of cooling down, then quickly disappearing. The top was red, the rest faded into grey.
I've never seen that before. Interesting.
[quote=LootFragg]
When I checked the UDB, the bar updated and the red part was gone. The lower half (medium temperature) stayed there until I checked the UDB again, finding the temperature to be very low and the bar gone when leaving the UDB. So this doesn't get updated properly in real-time.
[quote]
Yeah, I noticed that. It also happens when you open the UDB and fire a few shots. It doesn't get updated, you'll have to switch tabs if you want to see the text change, for example. The ammo count doesn't get updated as well. I guess there is no update happening. Same goes for the weapon display in strategic view when you compress time, the weapon cools down, but the display does not get updated.
I'm shying away from putting an update there, because there has so far never been a need for one. A graphical issue might not justify introducing a potentially calculation-heavy update function.
LootFragg
I noticed the Ruger Mini-14 5.56mm having only as much heat increase as a pistol (80). Should probably be more but yah, I assume weapons haven't been thoroughly balanced yet. I didn't expect it. But some are, depending on caliber and all. Well done.
Correct. I didn't really balance the values, and left some weapons at their standard values. My main issue was to penalize SMGs and ARs in comparison to MGs.
However, the heat increase itself doesn't say that much. One has also to take into account the thresholds and the cooldown factor. You'll notice that most machineguns have heat increases that are actually lower than those of most pistols. This results in them being able to fire more bullets till they overheat. At the same time, the cooldown time from a Threshold to 0 should be about the same, given the same cooldown factor.
As a testbed, I increased the heat increase and the thresholds for the MG3 a lot, roughly by the same factor (~2). As a result, it can fire as many bullets as other mgs till it overheats, but it takes way longer to cooldown.
LootFragg
As I have stated before, I consider the damage and jamming thresholds somewhat irrelevant in the UDB. They don't seem to differ from gun to gun, you don't see the current temperature as a numerical value and I don't see them as suitable values for comparison. The only use for them would be to see extreme deviations like in a gun that is extremely heat sensitive or one that is almost immune to overheating. Or maybe calculate how many rounds can be fired before the gun overheats but well. I'd rather want a rough indicator of the weapon's heat tolerance. What I want to know: Are there guns whose jam / degrade thresholds would definitely not be proportional? Like, a machinegun that keeps firing until it breaks or something? Because otherwise, if these are somewhat proportional, I would combine them into a heat tolerance value in the UDB. It doesn't matter what's going on behind the scenes but one value would be appreciated. BUT I imagine it's rather handy to have all values displayed as long as the feature is still being tested. As a sort of final polish I'd make it look good by decreasing the amount of info shown.
I do not know for sure, but there propably are a lot of differences in overheating behaviour. For example, Id guess that a Kalashnikov might have a very high threshold for extra damage, while a Sten might not. I wanted to allow all the different scenarios I could think of.
At minumum, the ratios (single shot temperature)/(jam threshold), (single shot temperature)/(damage threshold) and (cooldown factor)/(jam threshold) would have to be displayed, those have modificators that have to e shown too...
Well, information overload is a bad thing (reading the UDB of a fully equipped gun takes a bit of time...). I'll think of something.
LootFragg
Apart from all the icon stuff, I'd put ammo specific heat stuff after a separator or on the Advanced page, making sure to keep it apart from the values that indicate a bullet's destructive potential. It's a feature like AET rounds decreasing condition, good to know but not of primary relevance when checking out ammunition.
But there's so much empty spaace down there...
LootFragg
Suggestion
How does the entire heat stuff get calculated? The jam threshold means this is where the gun starts jamming due to heat? And the hotter it gets the more likely it is to jam? Anyway, I'd say lower the threshold and make a non-linear function (if you have one right now) that increases jam probability progressively the hotter the gun gets. So you'll have a smooth curve.
Well, the gun doesn't jam due to heat. If a gun is overheated, the base chance of jamming for that gun is increased. That function itself is nonlinear. However, I might change that function (it is possible to reach a temperature that will always jam the gun).
In my first version, I there was overheating-specific jamming, but I took that out because it doesn't add anything to gameplay (jammed is jammed).
LootFragg
A really cool feature would be increasing the red colour value of the icon but I don't think it's possible to play around with graphics that much, is it?
Which icon do you mean? The status bar at full overheeating has an rgb value of (255, 0, 0), it doesn't get much redder than that
LootFragg
That's it for now, I'll keep playing with that version.
Go on, have fun. I'm especially interested if the replacable barrel is useful. It works with all machineguns (except those that are based on the G36, as I know there is no fast way to change a barrel there). You should find them at Bobby Rays, Tony or as random loot.
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