Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Idea Incubation Lab » HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!!
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295405]
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Sun, 18 December 2011 13:20 
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Tango |
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Messages:106
Registered:July 2006 |
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Not sure if this is HAM related or more to do with the latest AFS 3.60RC2 but I'm getting a runtime error with the latest 5.5a version when I try to launch it:
Error:
Line 616
Loading External Map Sector (to do with coolness I think)
Along with:
Line 851
EDIT:
Not a HAM bug will report it to Wil. The crash if occurring due to a lack of a CoolnessBySector XML file in the RC2 files (the VFS setup does not read the one in the Data HAM folder.
[Updated on: Sun, 18 December 2011 13:28] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Sergeant
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295471]
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Mon, 19 December 2011 19:16 
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reVurt |
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Messages:61
Registered:March 2007 Location: The Great White North, eh... |
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HeadrockAs the team approaches the destination, the arrow will shift colors - first to greyish, then to yellow as you get near. IT will also move appropriately: crossing the border into the next sector. The team arrives when the arrow is fully yellow and inside the destination sector.
Comments on this will be appreciated, especially the colors used.
Works nicely, from what I've seen so far. If anything, the effect is a little understated in 1024x768. The colours seem a touch bland to me, but I'm not sure what I'd replace them with, to be honest. In a way, the transition happens too fast to really appreciate the colour changes at the fast time compression, but I suspect if were to use a slower time compression (with multiple teams in the field that need coordinating) that this would be more helpful, but even then the grey and the yellow are a touch too similar to quickly differentiate. While the yellow blends in with the square border color nicely, it doesn't really denote the sense of urgency implied by entering a new, potentially dangerous sector.
That's my two cents, for what it's worth.
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Corporal
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295482]
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Mon, 19 December 2011 22:56 
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Soren |
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Messages:13
Registered:December 2011 |
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Testing Report:
Mods/Version:
Special SCI + Ham 5.5a + MAM 2.4.5 + a few custom extras
Bugs:
When transforming a stack of items via Sector Inventory OR in a merc's inventory, if the items are not all of the same condition, the system only uses the TOP of the stack item's condition to generate additional items.
Example:
I have a stack of 3 t-shirts, 90%, 82%, and 20%. If I tear them up with the 90% one on top, I get 4 90% Rags, an 82%, and a 20%. (Instead of 2 of each.) This has been a bug since the stack transformations were fixed. I would have commented earlier, but this is my first post as my account just got approved (a long post, too!)
Also, BP costs ARE charged out of battle. AND they are charged to the truck! E.G., in my extras, you can melt down steel items into chunks of steel (good ol' JA1, I use the silver nugget pic). Chunks can be turned into steel tubes and springs. Anyway, put a steel helmet into the truck, transformed it into two steel chunks in strategic map/sector inventory. All my gas disappeared Not necessarily a bug, but I figured you should know.
Feature Comments:
I went through and fixed all the integral stocks and bipods, as well as adding in variable power scopes for the 7x (2x, 4x, 7x) and 10x (2, 4, 6). I didn't change the ACOG (it is a fixed power scope, see below). Also added open/close for grippod.
All in all, it works VERY well. Some weapons that were kinda weak with integral retracting/folding stocks become much more usable when you can pop the stock out and send some accurate aimed bursts downrange. Excepting for some very hard to raise weapons (shotguns, especially), if the AP cost for extension/retraction is not zero, there is little advantage to popping the stock in every time you move/reload/do something that requires re-raising the weapon and then popping it out to fire - you just keep the stock out. However, on the first use, this can save considerable APs. The main advantage is the ability to remove the penalties imposed on a lot of integral folding stock firearms that vanilla 1.13 imposes. For my money, I set the AP cost to 1, no BP cost, and I think this is relatively reasonable. It makes fiddling with SMG stocks kinda useless, but adds power back to, say, the Colt 9mm (competes well with the Steyr AUG Para again).
Bipods/grippods are a bit different. There is a considerable penalty for using them when not prone, and allowing the user to fold them up for a more reasonable penalty (it still IS a bit of metal on the weapon, so it makes handling worse) when crouched makes them much more handy. My sniper with a SL8 can use it crouched/bipod closed or prone/bipod open, as circumstances dictate.
Balance Issues:
It has been mentioned many times before, but with NCTH, coolness rebalancing of items is almost required. With MAM's increased shotgun effectiveness, these make excellent coolness 1-3 suppression weapons with buckshot (at which point you transition naturally into submachineguns, then assault rifles, then LMG/MGs). I hesitate to suggest MORE weapons, but we might want a few more really sucky SMGs and especially more sucky LMGs. Older scoped rifles (Garand/Mauser, and to lesser extent, the M1 Carbine) are not really as effective as, say, a Sterling or even in some cases the Baikal-233 - fire and maneuver is really the way to win. The AI will use suppression, but has few options in the early game (Glock 18/Scorpions are probably the most common, as well as 93Rs and the occasional SMG/shotgun). A bulky, ugly LMG is just the right thing for the enemy to use in, say, the DCA, and it makes sense too! With generally superior numbers, the AI should be using suppression to beat up my mercs, but at least on Expert, they don't.
In general, (and I speak as someone who played JA1, DG, 2 pre-1.13, vanilla 1.13 OCTH, then NCTH), I love NCTH. It does make the game different, but really, in OCTH you need about 3-5 shots per kill, and that's even more silly than Hollywood. Lugging around a ton of ammo makes no sense, and it cuts out a whole logistical subdimension of the game. Suppression also makes stealing EASIER - while one merc is firing SMG/shotgun suppression rounds, another is running closer to steal your stuff. Good times. (With MAM's price structure, stealing weapons is VERY much worth the trouble. A merc can pay for themselves with one or two swipes. And, I admit, I upped the daily cash that Tony has.)
Too many guns can accept good attachments in even vanilla 1.13 (I cut a lot of the addons that MAM made there, too). The advantage of certain weapons, especially modern ones, over others (especially older ones), is the compatibility with better attachments. (This is true of the ACOG - it can 'add' reflex sights to weapon, which is nice on, say, the Mini-14). Pistol silencers are probably the worst offenders - everything, almost, can use them, so guns with dedicated threads for suppressors lose big time (I'm looking at you, Mk 23 ...)
Items that need fixing:
The ACOG is a fixed sight, but should probably be given some other bonus to compensate. It's a good choice for assault rifles/carbines (3-4x is about your engagement range for those, I find). Maybe a night bonus?
ISM-V-IR needs serious tweaking since NAS came out - there's little need to save slots as before, and the fact that scopes are de rigeur in NCTH makes it pretty useless.
MP5N - I recommend a night bonus due to the Surefire light forestock, but a stealth penalty too (hey, what's that light?)
Further Transforming Ideas:
I am probably going to try making a 'buttstock' item - rifles/SMGs can transform into it. It represents hitting someone with the stock - a blunt weapon. I am not sure what, if anything, will happen to the attachments on said weapon, so I will report back when I overcome laziness and do it.
I also think being able to turn off flashlights/lasers (no aim bonus, but no stealth penalty) would be nice. Also, as mentioned in the MP5N, SureFire forends are on my to do list. For 0-1 AP, it makes sense to sneak up on the enemy without the laser/light on, then turn it on and let 'em have it.
Also, I am open to advice on how to model firing .38 Specials out of a .357 Magnum weapon. I am pretty sure we can't do this now (though, admittedly, I haven't tried). You SHOULD be able to, though; a simple 0 AP transform to switch between the same picture weapon, but alter the stats and ammo type.
I am finally also considering making a test system for the interchangeable MP5 family - change a barrel here, a trigger module there, and voila, your MP5N is now a MP5/40. This would mostly be to test the transforming abilities to 'take apart' weapons. Granted, I am terrible with graphics, so it won't look good, but as I am the only one looking at it, who cares?
Sorry if this came out so long ...
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Private
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295483]
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Mon, 19 December 2011 23:48 
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Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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@ Soren: Thank you for your feedback, it was a very interesting read.
Quote:Bugs:
When transforming a stack of items via Sector Inventory OR in a merc's inventory, if the items are not all of the same condition, the system only uses the TOP of the stack item's condition to generate additional items.
I still need to get around to that. I was hoping to be able to transform just ONE item in any stack, but I ran into difficulties with that. I need to make that work, and I will eventually.
Quote:Also, BP costs ARE charged out of battle.
I intentionally did this, because IMHO they should be. But I didn't consider vehicles. I think I'm going to forbid transformations when an item is loaded into a vehicle.
Quote:adding in variable power scopes for the 7x (2x, 4x, 7x) and 10x (2, 4, 6)
Isn't that overdoing it? A 10x scope doing 2x would be very very bad balance-wise. 7x should maybe do 4x-7x, while 10x does 6x-10x or something... I'm just afraid that If they can go to 2x, they'll make sniper rifles and DMRs uber-useful again...
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295485]
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Tue, 20 December 2011 00:02 
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Soren |
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Messages:13
Registered:December 2011 |
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HeadrockIsn't that overdoing it? A 10x scope doing 2x would be very very bad balance-wise. 7x should maybe do 4x-7x, while 10x does 6x-10x or something... I'm just afraid that If they can go to 2x, they'll make sniper rifles and DMRs uber-useful again...
Honestly, I have no RL experience using scopes, and (perhaps due to weak Google-fu), I couldn't really find a tremendous amount of data on what would constitute a reasonable setting on a variable power scope. (1.5x-7x isn't ... very informative.) Even with the ability to hit short range targets with a sniper rifle, the question is WHY you would do so ... for example, even a max tricked out SL8 in a Sniper's hands will get at most 2 or possibly 3 shots off (max aim, of course). In the same amount of time, a SMG can put 5 or 10 times the amount of lead downrange, and given the odds of missing (using a 90-ish DEX/90-ish MRK Sniper, a hit is not guaranteed), you are better off transitioning to another weapon or letting your mercs with short ranged weapons take the shot. With a real sniper rifle, the number of shots is worse. The 2x gives the sniper the option, in an emergency, to engage short range; the AP cost of setting down the rifle/bipod again is the counterbalance to transitioning to your backup piece. A really good pistol with scope in that range is probably a better option, even, but the SMG is the best.
Update: (figured I'd save a post)
I added a Colt Python that fires .38 Specials. Works fine, and as a bonus, HAM auto-ejects the incorrect ammo (I suspect this is part of the 'incompatible attachment' check code ...), so you can't cheat and use HPS's as stand in for AETs. Back and forth transforms work as well.
I decided to abandon the buttstock idea, as I realize you'd have to make one for each weapon (!!) otherwise there is an easy exploit (I turn my MP5 around, and I get a stock to hit you with. When I reverse it ... it is a M16 ...) if guns share buttstocks.
[Updated on: Tue, 20 December 2011 23:46] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Private
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295592]
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Thu, 22 December 2011 12:01 
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ChonkE |
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Messages:17
Registered:January 2008 Location: Utah |
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What do you mean "reasonable"? It is all about what you are willing to spend. You can get a "Unicorn" scope with a true 1x power both eye open shooting capability that has even lenses and foci points (and weight) to zoom in to 12x power or a 5x-20x or whatever you are willing to pay. Light gathering, objectives, lens coatings, inert gas fillers, nitrogen purging, tactical turrets w/set zero blah blah blah blah blah. $$$$. The glass is out there. Not all of us have mineral resources to mine and sell for arms. Our heroes(?) do! Most standard DMR/close-range hunting optics which offer both eye open shooting range from 1x-4x. Many variable power hunting optics are 3x-9x, 4x-12x. Bench shooters and snipers like bigger stuff now.
As far as the night bonus on the ACOG thing; you cannot hit what you cannot see, so if you do not have proper distance, lighting, background, technological advantage or otherwise... well no bueno. The ACOG is nice for certain applications but it certainly doesn't see in the dark. It is a durable, rugged fixed power battle sight that allows for quick and rapid target acquisition and transition. In low-light/dusk that chevron is a nice advantage though.
Headrock, Snipers and DMRs should be uber-useful! Just sayin'
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Private
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295693]
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Sun, 25 December 2011 14:01 
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Alex_SPB |
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Messages:169
Registered:February 2008 Location: Russia, St.Petersburg |
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Quote:
Hi Alex,
If i'm not mistaken, "AP to draw" is in weapons.xml as :
Yes, it is, but this approach has several weak points. For example let us compare 2 guns: M4 and IWI Tavor TAR 21. Both guns are equipped with iron sights only. As Tavor is a bullpup and especially designed for close quarters combat, it is more easy to rise this gun than M4. This means that Tavor should have lower then M4.
Both guns have the same barrel length and quality and shoot the same round. However M4 has longer sightline (space between front and rear iron sights) then Tavor (equipped with iron sights only) and will allow to produce much better aimed shots in real life. In NCTH Tavor would allow to be better aimed then M4 (opposite to real life) as the single value is used both to estimate time to prepare weapon for shooting (raise time) and efficiency of aiming.
My real life shooting experience tells me that the assumption "lower ready time = more accurate aiming" is not 100% true.
As of now it is extremely difficult to adjust existing draw cost mechanics for the example with Tavor and M4 described above via XML. A new entry would simplify the whole process a lot.
[Updated on: Sun, 25 December 2011 14:09] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295698]
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Sun, 25 December 2011 15:34 
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Alex_SPB |
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Messages:169
Registered:February 2008 Location: Russia, St.Petersburg |
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@wil473:
Have not seen you post prior to writing the previous comment. So do I get it right that NCTH handling is being calculated from the separate tag? If so this is a great and long-waited addition. Shame I have not spotted this earlier.
Quote:
also, discussion has been tilting towards using things like "sight length" (M4 vs Tavor) in deriving the NCTH Accuracy stat
As far as I remember the initial "accuracy" purpose was to simulate weapon qualities that affect hit probability but can not be taken into account during the aiming process (for example quality of the barrel). Initially the visible aperture size did not change if "accuracy" value was changed. However the real aperture size was adjusted on accuracy values.
[Updated on: Sun, 25 December 2011 15:37] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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Staff Sergeant
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295712]
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Sun, 25 December 2011 21:52 
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Soren |
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Messages:13
Registered:December 2011 |
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One more 'feature'? Or maybe it is a bug ...
Inseparable Default Attachments are immutable.
To expand:
Initially (before I had forum access, back in like 5.1), I made integral stocks inseparable. Of course, they are default attachments, too. However, if you tried to transform them (this was before the nasty crash bug, which was recently fixed in 5.5+), they would LOOK like they switched in the UDB panel (name would change, as would the stats), but when you closed the UDB panel, the stock remained in the original state (whichever one is defined as the default attachment). You could unattach the stock (Shift+F), and then transform it, as well as reattach it, but once again if you tried to transform it, it 'stuck' in the default state.
To fix it, I simply made the integral stocks non-inseparable (that is, normal), and the problem disappeared.
In the new version, the stock doesn't even try to transform. Attempting to transform it exits the UDB instantly and no transformation occurs. If the stocks are removable, then there is no problem whatsoever.
Given that removing 'inseparable' attachments is easy, I don't find this to be a troublesome bug, but I thought it should be reported.
Happy Holidays, all ... (I like the snow, btw)
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Private
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295713]
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Sun, 25 December 2011 22:36 
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Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:While Headrock's original plan used Draw cost, the NCTH implemented by ChrisL in stock v1.13 has a separate "handling" value. Starwalker came up with those values.
From what I saw, the values in 1.13 are actually 1:1 with the Draw costs. I.E. the end result was just copying all the values from APtoReady to Handling. Maybe I'm mistaken. What I think may be true is that Starwalker added various modifiers based on internal attachments (folding stocks, primarily) to differentiate some weapons...
But I don't know this for a fact - I was not around at the time, so it's just my impression.
Quote:Additionally Headrock did say something about eventually double checking how Handling is actually being used. There's some question as to where this value takes effect, and its overall effect on hitting things in-game.
Yeah, I really should get to doing that. The thing is I want to finish playing the game first - I've been gone too long to work on this without some proper hands-on experience. Can't learn the code as well if you don't know how it behaves in game. So it'll probably take a little longer.
Quote:So do I get it right that NCTH handling is being calculated from the separate tag? If so this is a great and long-waited addition. Shame I have not spotted this earlier.
Yes, Chris spotted and fixed this almost straight away - it was something I had planned to do and left quite unfinished, so it's a good thing it wasn't left the way it was. Of course, had he not done it, I would've done it as the first HAM 5 feature... In either case, it works AND is displayed in the UDB so you can see the value for yourself. The modifiers for it appear in the ADVANCED tab, since they are stance-based.
Quote:Quote:also, discussion has been tilting towards using things like "sight length" (M4 vs Tavor) in deriving the NCTH Accuracy stat As far as I remember the initial "accuracy" purpose was to simulate weapon qualities that affect hit probability but can not be taken into account during the aiming process (for example quality of the barrel).
Two comments on this. First, Alex is absolutely correct on this. Accuracy is a value entirely representing how well the weapon can put its bullets to where it is aimed, and thus should never be intermingled with snapshot/aiming performance (aperture size). Therefore Wil, I think that sight length is actually not at all a factor on accuracy.
In fact, possibly the best simulation of the effects of sight-length would be an Aiming Modifier: Does not affect snap-shooting, but does affect aiming.
Quote: Initially the visible aperture size did not change if "accuracy" value was changed. However the real aperture size was adjusted on accuracy values.
True and false there.
On the visible aperture size: It was originally intended to show ONLY the shooter's effect on the shot. Accuracy was not shown; as I saw it, there was no reason to show accuracy in the targeting cursor at all, because UDB already gives us the exact value (which is used as-is by the firing mechanism).
ChrisL argued that accuracy should be shown as part of the aperture cursor, and for that he introduced a little "cheat": expanding the visible aperture by the maximum deviation of the bullet, thus giving a visible effect of larger apertures for less-accurate guns. This effectively discourages things like pistol shots to sniper ranges, because the player can clearly see that he's got no chance in hell, even with the best possible scope and the best shooter.
However this is still a cheat. The reason is that system-wise, accuracy and aiming are entirely separate. There is actually no good way I can think of of showing the both of them simultaneously at all. So the expansion effect is, to some extent, misleading. Whether or not accuracy should be factored into the visible aperture size or not is therefore a tangled discussion.
So yes, initially the cursor showed only aiming, as originally intended. Right now, the cursor is adjusted based on accuracy as well, but in a misleading way. In truth, the two are utterly separate. The muzzle is aimed first, then set to a random direction, then the bullet's trajectory is set along another random direction related to the muzzle's new angle. One depends on the other, but they do not interact.
------------
Answer to Soren in the next post.
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295714]
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Sun, 25 December 2011 22:47 
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Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:In the new version, the stock doesn't even try to transform. Attempting to transform it exits the UDB instantly and no transformation occurs. If the stocks are removable, then there is no problem whatsoever.
What you described about causing a change that only affects UDB (and doesn't affect the actual item) is known to me, and is something I've been grappling with. I thought I got rid of that problem though, so learning that it still occurs with some attachments is puzzling.
Fortunately I know where to look for the problem, so it shouldn't be too difficult.
Quote:
Given that removing 'inseparable' attachments is easy, I don't find this to be a troublesome bug, but I thought it should be reported.
No, it's good that you reported it. I'll have a go at this tonight, if I can make the XMLs for it...
Quote:
Happy Holidays, all ... (I like the snow, btw)
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295716]
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Mon, 26 December 2011 00:30 
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Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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@ Soren:
I've managed to reproduce the bug, and even discovered why it is happening. Unfortunately, the fix may be extremely difficult to implement. I'm going to need to discuss it here because it's hard figuring it out for myself to begin with.
The error occurs when checking whether the parent item (in this case, a gun) can take all of its attachments after one of them (the inseperable one) is altered.
What the game does is this:
A) Erase all inseperable default attachments from the gun.
B) Copy all remaining attachments to memory
C) Erase all attachments on the gun.
D) Recreate all default inseperable attachments and put them on the gun.
E) Reattach all items from the memory attachment list.
Lets take for example a gun with an internal (default inseperable) scope 2x. We define a transformation that changes from 2x to 4x. When we change the scope, this is what happens nominally:
A) The 2x Scope is erased, because it's one of the gun's default inseperable attachments.
B) Any other attachments are copied to memory.
C) All attachments are erased from the gun.
D) A new 2x Scope is attached to the gun, because it's one of the gun's default inseperable attachments.
E) All other attachments in memory are reattached.
Actually that's what's "supposed" to happen - but there's an extra problem that causes this EVEN WEIRDER thing to happen:
A) The 2x Scope isn't erased, because we've already changed the item into a 4x scope by this point.
B) The 4x scope and any other attachments are copies into memory.
C) All attachments are erased from the gun.
D) A new 2x Scope is attached to the gun.
E) The game fails to put the 4x Scope on the gun, and seeing that it is an inseperable attachment itself, simply deletes it!
F) All other attachments in memory are reattached.
So there are several problems to solve here - unfortunately I have no idea how. For one, the function I'm using appears to be extremely important, so I can't easily change it. Furthermore, if I did change it somehow, it's possible that any other transformation you perform would again cause the gun to have a 2x Scope.
And of course, how do I even begin to instruct the program to do this correctly? I'd need to figure out how to not create a new default attachment in the same slot as the one that was transformed, and that could be even more tricky...
So I'm going to have to put this off until I can have a long and thorough examination of this problem with Warmsteel (who wrote the function I'm using) to see if there's any decent way out. I don't know how long this will take...
Also in the event that we do fail to solve the problem, what should happen? Should default inseperable attachments be impossible to transform? If so, what happens to internal stocks in some systems?
This is very confusing...
[EDIT: BTW, I see one reasonable way out of this issue: Make two identical versions of the gun itself, but with two different default attachments set for the two versions. Transforming the gun would transform the attachment without changing anything else. Yeah, it's an ugly workaround, but it will achieve the same thing you've been trying to do - and with even fewer clicks...]
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295717]
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Mon, 26 December 2011 02:09 
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CptMoore |
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Messages:224
Registered:March 2009 |
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HeadrockLets take for example a gun with an internal (default inseperable) scope 2x. We define a transformation that changes from 2x to 4x. When we change the scope, this is what happens nominally:
A) The 2x Scope is erased, because it's one of the gun's default inseperable attachments.
B) Any other attachments are copied to memory.
C) All attachments are erased from the gun.
D) A new 2x Scope is attached to the gun, because it's one of the gun's default inseperable attachments.
E) All other attachments in memory are reattached.
Where is the actual step where 2x becomes 4x? I'm very confused about this being the expected behaviour.
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Sergeant 1st Class
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295730]
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Mon, 26 December 2011 17:12 
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Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004 Location: Canada |
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HeadrockTwo comments on this. First, Alex is absolutely correct on this. Accuracy is a value entirely representing how well the weapon can put its bullets to where it is aimed, and thus should never be intermingled with snapshot/aiming performance (aperture size). Therefore Wil, I think that sight length is actually not at all a factor on accuracy.
In fact, possibly the best simulation of the effects of sight-length would be an Aiming Modifier: Does not affect snap-shooting, but does affect aiming.
Sure, and and I think I may have been thinking this when I gave all Long Arms a +10 Cap bonus.
I think my next project will be to start thinking of better representation of built-in Iron Sights (which will of course factor in sight length). The way things are setup right now, I'm thinking of doing the following:
NCTH Cap = accuracy of iron sight
AK's have their own scopes/adapters = all AK's can share a NCTH Cap value that represents specifically lower than average accuracy of the built-in sighting gear
H&K G3/MP5 have their own scopes/adapters = all G3/MP5 weapons can share a NCTH Cap value that represents the specifics of the H&K drum/diopter sight
Most AR-15's are of the flat top variety = an attachment can handle the sights for most AR-15's, must be removed for a scope to fit.
The important thing in this system is that the Iron Sight effect be nulified when a scope is attached. ie. +7 Cap bonus on AK's = -7 Cap penalty on P.O. 3.5x21P Scope, Kobra Reflex, etc...
Re: the issue with inseparable attachments. Somewhat wary about possible work there, several weapons have attachments that appear and disappear between item transformations of the base weapon. At the same time, the "bug" sounds like it may affect plans for a variable power OICW computerized sighting system (the sights are planned to be inseparable attachments, and one must be a default attachment). I've got a day off tomorrow and wanted to get some work in on this.
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295800]
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Tue, 27 December 2011 16:46 
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Wil473 |
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Messages:2815
Registered:September 2004 Location: Canada |
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Now that I'm not rushing off to work today, time to think about the whole transforming default attachment issue - and came up with a naive and probably silly question: if it is the default attachment being transformed, and not the base item/weapon, why is the base item/weapon's other attachment being checked?
Would it not be easier to stipulate that for transforming default/inseparable attachments, the most the game does is: 1) check that the attachment is in Attachments.XML 2) check that there is a viable (empty or the created attachment fits the same slot as the former default/inseparable attachment) NAS slot available, the transform does not happen if neither condition is met?
Now already I see a problem, with the above, what if after the default/inseparable attachment is transformed, the base item is transformed into something that has different default/inseparable attachments.
Example: Beretta ARX-160
- has folding stock
- will have a multi-mode scope (for the purpose of this discussion, a default/inseparable attachment)
- Multi-Mode Scope (MMS) has 2x and 4 x variations, both are inseparable, and the 2x also a default on the "Beretta ARX-160"
Case 1) Base item transform - How things work right now (and I'd like to keep working for base items)
- stock folds, "Beretta ARX-160" transforms into "ARX-160 Folded Stock"
- no change to the MMS 2x if it is present, otherwise the MMS 2x appears if it was missing on the original "Beretta ARX-160" was missing it due to known Map Editor issue
- This is Warmsteel's code that I've been leveraging for features and workarounds.
Case 2) Default/Inseparable Attachment Transform - The Problem, Part I (as I'm reading it)
- MMS 2x item transforms to the MMS 4x
- conceptually should not affect other attachments, as the modder is responsible for making sure the MMS 2x and MMS 4x fits the same slot properly
Case 3) Base Item Transform After Default/Inseparable Attachment has been transformed, The Problem, Part II
- start condition: "Beretta ARX-160" with a MMS 4x instead of the default MMS 2x
- stock fold: "Beretta ARX-160" item transforms to "ARX-160 Folded Stock"
- the problem is, how to handle the MMS 2x default/inseparable attachment vs the MMS 4x inseparable attachment that is attached at the time
Case3, Option 1) modders are responsible for not allowing Case 3) to occur, the ARX-160 MMS does not need to be an inseparable attachment
Case3, Option 2) present inseparable attachments take precedence, any inseparable/default attachments defined in Items.XML that cannot find a NAS slot to fit into are simply not added to the created base item
- "Beretta ARX-160" item transforms into "ARX-160 Folded Stock," the MMS 4x stays put, no MMS 2x is created despite it being a default/inseparable attachment for the "ARX-160 Folded Stock"
Case4, Option 3) Items.XML default/inseparable attachments take precedence, all inseparable attachments that cannot find a find free NAS slot after the base item transforms are simply discarded from the game (not dropped)
- "Beretta ARX-160" item transforms into "ARX-160 Folded Stock," the MMS 2x appears, the MMS 4x dissappears
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Re: HAM 5 Alpha - You know it!![message #295808]
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Tue, 27 December 2011 19:22 
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Headrock |
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Messages:1762
Registered:March 2006 Location: Jerusalem |
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Quote:if it is the default attachment being transformed, and not the base item/weapon, why is the base item/weapon's other attachment being checked?
I'm not much in favor of leaving this up to modders to figure out, unless I find no other option. The game has to check whether the new attachment fits in the same slot it occupied previously, and if not, move to any other slot it can occupy, and if not, be dropped to the inventory after transformation.
This is what Warmsteel's function does, and it should do this. The primary reason, I imagine, is that NAS slots can change for all sorts of reasons. So until we transform the attachment, we don't actually know what slots the weapon will have after the transformation.
Example:
Attachment A unlocks three new slots. All three are filled with other attachments.
Attachment A transforms into Attachment B.
Attachment B only unlocks two new slots. One existing attachment must be removed or moved to another slot.
This means we need to run through all attachments and check their validity. And move them to appropriate slots or to the inventory, if they aren't valid.
So in theory, I could modify the function -- or create a copy thereof -- so that only transformation or merger of the gun itself will trigger recreation of its inseparable default attachments. However, in the above example this may cause all sorts of weird shit...
Of course in practice I have no idea how the attachment slot system works to begin with... it's very complicated stuff and I don't have the time or strength of will to study it. But I do understand that this revalidation of the attachments after a merger (or in this case transformation, same thing) is required to avoid issues.
In addition, there could be all sorts of combinations we cannot even begin to anticipate. What if the transformed item is NOT inseperable, for instance? Or if the gun has default attachments that are seperable, like (I think) the SVD?
This is very confusing stuff.
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