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DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320015] Sat, 18 May 2013 10:23 Go to next message
wsmithjr2013

 
Messages:50
Registered:March 2013
Location: New Jersey
Been playing DL-1.13 lately. Ripping my hair out trying to take over mine sectors without the whole place getting blown to oblivion or losing half my squad in the process, but that's not what this post is about.

I'm playing the game on Experienced difficulty with NCTH (default). I had hired Hitman to be my militia trainer while my main squad roams the countryside. Hitman helped the militia fend off a number of counterattacks in Drassen. Well, "helped" would be a euphemism. After several battles, armed with a fully repaired M1A1, he has taken 51 shots and connected with 4 of them. (At one point, it was 29 with 1 hit.) Almost all of these have been at full aiming and not crazy distance either. Most of the time, he's in the little guard house with the switch (which experience has taught me is not the safest place to be) and taking pot shots at all the enemies attacking from that direction. His MRK is 88, so it sure seems he should be hitting a lot more often.

As I took over Chitzena, I hired Stephen to also train militia and he arrived in Drassen due to not yet having taken over the NW SAM site. He arrived just before another attack on Drassen and so was in position to aid Hitman in the defense. The only weapon I had readily available was a Walther P99 which I gave to Stephen. In that battle, Stephen was in the same building as Hitman covering the south side while Hitman "covered" the west side. Stephen fired off 18 shots and connected with 9 of them; again all on max aim. His MRK is 83.

So, why the huge disparity with marksmanship between the two guys? Both mercs just have the main gun, no extra optics. Hitman's lack of effectiveness was bugging me all along, but the comparison with Stephen broke the camel's back. I probably wouldn't be so surprised if the results were reversed, but it makes absolutely no sense to me that the merc with the higher marksmanship and longer-ranged weapon, is connecting with 5% of his shots vs 50% for another merc. Is there some hidden secret of the TH calculations that I'm not understanding? Stephen is 1 level higher than Hitman; can that have something to do with it (it shouldn't if you ask me)? Truth be told, I know there's a difference between NCTH and OCTH and that's the extent of my knowledge of the two. In my game I haven't noticed any other mercs so consistently bad as Hitman, though they all have their moments.

So, can anybody help me understand what is going on here or is there something screwy with the TH calculator.

I've since given Hitman a different weapon but not yet had a chance to test it out to see if there's any difference.

Thanks for any comments.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320023] Sat, 18 May 2013 16:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Urby

 
Messages:5
Registered:March 2013
Try purchasing Iron sight for your rifle, I was noticing that anything >Handgun performs horribly without even the most basic of sight attachments.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320025] Sat, 18 May 2013 16:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wsmithjr2013

 
Messages:50
Registered:March 2013
Location: New Jersey
Urby
Try purchasing Iron sight for your rifle, I was noticing that anything >Handgun performs horribly without even the most basic of sight attachments.


Thanks for the comment. I guess I can give Hitman a pistol for a while until I can get some optics. Just seems a little counter-intuitive to me that a pistol is more effective. Most of my team doesn't have optics, which may explain how Slay misses many of his shots with a Scout sniper rifle, but at least he hits 39% of the time. I did get a couple when I visited Tony. I try not to buy too much stuff via the laptop/BR and take a more "live off the land" approach, but that doesn't seem to be working so well for me.

Anyway, I'll make optics a much higher priority. Thanks.

P.S. Just checked and you can't get any kind of optics except a Laser Sight for an M1A1. Is the gun just that bad compared to others? Razor has been using one, but I expect Razor to miss almost all of his shots which is why he has 53 blade attacks to account for his 29 kills.

[Updated on: Sat, 18 May 2013 17:05] by Moderator

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320026] Sat, 18 May 2013 17:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:349
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
I have no sure answer for your problem, just a few hints maybe:

-NCTH has complicated math behind it, and not only MRK is taken into account. WIS, DEX, EXP level count a lot, in different weight depending on the NCTH part.
Can you sum up the stats of each merc as a reminder please?

-NCTH only shows aperture size, not the real chance to hit. Sometimes, the mercs' view is blocked, and we don't pay attention to it. Then, many shots will miss even if we have a good NCTH. Try and see if Hitman was shooting with a very clear view, sometimes windows and doors are tricky.

-Did your 2 mercs have exactly the same weapon?

-How were health, stamina and morale? They all count very much in accuracy
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320043] Sat, 18 May 2013 22:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wsmithjr2013

 
Messages:50
Registered:March 2013
Location: New Jersey
Grim
I have no sure answer for your problem, just a few hints maybe:

-NCTH has complicated math behind it, and not only MRK is taken into account. WIS, DEX, EXP level count a lot, in different weight depending on the NCTH part.
Can you sum up the stats of each merc as a reminder please?


Name LVL MRK AGI DEX WIS
Hitman 4 88 77 40 76
Stephen 5 83 71 78 94

Grim
-NCTH only shows aperture size, not the real chance to hit. Sometimes, the mercs' view is blocked, and we don't pay attention to it. Then, many shots will miss even if we have a good NCTH. Try and see if Hitman was shooting with a very clear view, sometimes windows and doors are tricky.


Tried to load a photo but not sure how to do that. But the view for 95% of the shots by Hitman were vs enemies in the open, no cover at all. Maybe crouching or laying in the road, but nothing to block LOS. Hitman was crouching behind the window of a building. I've had shots hit the wall that the merc is right next to, which makes no sense, but that wasn't the case in this situation. Stephen was in the same position but actually had to deal with bushes and trees in the way. Yet he was much more successful in taking out enemies in spite of various obstacles. I got the feeling that the enemies could have been jumping up and down waving their arms at Hitman who still wouldn't have been able to hit them.


Grim
-Did your 2 mercs have exactly the same weapon?


No, that's part of my issue. Hitman had a 91% repaired Thompson M1A1 (Acc 30, Rng 20) while Stephen had a 88% repaired Walther P99 (Acc 6, Rng 12). I would expect Hitman to be much more deadly to enemies given the similar cirstances they faced; all single fully-aimed shots. (Dirt is turned off.)

Grim
-How were health, stamina and morale? They all count very much in accuracy


Both mercs were 100% health and average morale. Stephen had just arrived so he was 90+% stamina and Hitman was at least 75+% stamina.

Is the answer to go back to OCTH? I understand the UC/DL/AFS mods have had some changes made to NCTH to improve it, so I just use the default for that mod as I don't know the differences.

Thanks.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320046] Sat, 18 May 2013 23:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:349
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Once again, i don't pretend to have the answer, but i can give you a couple hints:

-Hitman has a VERY low DEX (40 is really bad). DEX has a good weight in NCTH, maybe he misses a lot because of that. How is the aperture size with full aim when you shoot? Compared to Stephen and his P99?

-Exp level has some good weight too.

-The Thompson: it isn't a very good weapon. You should try shooting auto with it, its only advantage. Moreover hitman seems to have "auto weapons" skill!

-I don't know why, but pistols tends to be pretty accurate, more than NCTH shows.

-Scopes are very important with NCTH, yes. If you want to be accurate, use one. Else, spread lead with busrt/auto or with many pistol shots
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320049] Sat, 18 May 2013 23:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Tango

 
Messages:106
Registered:July 2006
Anecdotally I find dexterity to be a huge influence in NCTH. So much so that a low marksmanship merc with High 90+ dexterity cam be a much better shooter than a high mark low dex merc.

To be honest its one of those things that needed changing when NCTH was programmed. However, it would require two sets of merc stats so that OCTH isn't knackered by any changes made.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320056] Sun, 19 May 2013 01:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:349
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Actually, you can change a lot of NCTH parameters in NCTHconstants.ini (or something like that, i don't have the files here), including any stat weight on the NCTH mechanisms.

IMHO, DEX is very important for a shooter, you may know how to shoot, but if your arms shake like hell you won't hit anything past a few meters. This wasn't taken into consideration in OCTH very well. NCTH puts incentive on DEX where it is relevant (read the file it's documented), but, yes, maybe too much? It's up to the player to ajust it if he feels so.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320057] Sun, 19 May 2013 01:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
CapnJack

 
Messages:56
Registered:June 2012
Hitman kinda sucks in NCTH. I would imagine it is indeed his piss poor dexterity holding him back. Give him the first scope/laser you find and put them on a rifle. Until then have him burst fire with that Thompson. Firing at the legs with a 3-5 round burst can draw the muzzle across the enemy resulting in a hit. If he has lower strength give him a 9mm auto weapon or something more controllable with less recoil. NCTH has been designed such that auto weapons are much more important and it generally takes many more bullets to finish a battle.

[Updated on: Sun, 19 May 2013 01:23] by Moderator

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320059] Sun, 19 May 2013 01:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wsmithjr2013

 
Messages:50
Registered:March 2013
Location: New Jersey
Tango
Anecdotally I find dexterity to be a huge influence in NCTH. So much so that a low marksmanship merc with High 90+ dexterity cam be a much better shooter than a high mark low dex merc.


Indeed, that would be supported by my observations. Razor has a lousy MRK but even so hits a lot more than Hitman. Not a lot, mind you, but still better than Hitman.

Grim
-Hitman has a VERY low DEX (40 is really bad). DEX has a good weight in NCTH, maybe he misses a lot because of that. How is the aperture size with full aim when you shoot? Compared to Stephen and his P99?


Have to get another battle to check. For Hitman, the circle was relatively small compared to not aiming, but it certainly wasn't the cross. So, perhaps part of the issue is my perception that the smaller circle is probably much better odds than it actually is. Is there any way to see the actual chance of a hit? Didn't see a hotkey on the list for that.

CapJack
If he has lower strength give him a 9mm auto weapon or something more controllable with less recoil. NCTH has been designed such that auto weapons are much more important and it generally takes many more bullets to finish a battle.


This comment, along with another about the Thompson being a bad weapon was not something that is readily apparent to me. I know there's a ton of stats about recoil and all, and I've looked at those, but I wasn't thinking they applied with single shots, only auto fire. So, when I look at one weapon with Acc 30/Rng 20 vs one with Acc 6/Rng 12, the one that seems obviously better to me apparently is not. And it's not like I'm even comparing total damage output. The Thompson costs much more to fire, so I'd expect mercs using pistols to do more damage over time using only single shots simply because they can get in many more shots. What I wouldn't expect is the hit percentage to be so much higher with the pistols.

That said, I didn't realize DEX was so important to hitting. Might bump down a tad to reduce my level of frustration. I do have a bunch more weapons now so I'll just have to get some of them over to Hitman and see if it helps any. It also helps to have a bit more insight into NCTH.

Anyway, I appreciate all the comments. Unfortunately, I'm out of town for the next couple of weeks and won't be able to play the game, but I'm sure Deidranna will hang around and wait for my return.

Thanks.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320061] Sun, 19 May 2013 03:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
grim

 
Messages:349
Registered:July 2006
Location: France
Well, weapon "accuracy" isn't very important at short range. Its related to the bullet accuracy from the virtual aimed point of the gun. In fact, a low accuracy can, with luck, compensate a bad shot from the merc. And by the way, the "accuracy" isn't shown on the NCTH indicator, you only see the aperture size if i understood well.

Range value doesn't work like in OCTH AT ALL. It only limits the distance at witch you can shoot. So a pistol with 12 range can shoot at 12 tiles away effectively, and the thompson at 20. Their accuracy below those distances aren't modified. The bullet drops after that range, that's all.

NCTH isn't a % to hit, so you can't show it. The bullet has a chance to deviate in the whole cone in from of your merc, whose section is the aperture shown on the reticule. (i don't know if i'm clear here, have a look at Headrock's explanations for better understanding!). If the aperture size is larger than the body part you are shooting, there is quite some chance you will miss it. The larger the aperture, the more (exponential) you will miss.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #320917] Sun, 26 May 2013 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nizi

 
Messages:5
Registered:May 2013
Location: Finland
Nevermind

[Updated on: Sun, 02 June 2013 09:47] by Moderator

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328386] Wed, 20 November 2013 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
largon
Messages:1
Registered:June 2008
Location: Finland
NCTH is a total mess in my opinion.
Eg. say you have a lone enemy about 10 squares away. MRK@85. You have an AR equipped with say, no attachments at all. You go about and shoot the bugger. Most certainly you will miss.
Try again.
And again.
Huge majority will miss.
Full aim points, no matter.

Mm-kay...

You grab your sidearm.
Oh look, it's a .38 special!
You run to few squares distance and blast the bugger apart with one shot to the forehead.
*WTF moment*

Sniper scopes seem useless.
M21 with 7x/10x scope and a goddam bipod -> shooter (MRK, DEX, STR, WIS ~85) prone and full aim points -> aperture is 3 times wider than enemy profile some 30-40 squares away.
No hit. No reason to even try.
Just wait for the perp to close in and pepper it with a random SMG, pistols w/e...


I wonder, if the author of NCTH has personal experience with firing guns at all...
Me? Basic finnish constript training with live round combat simulation in actual terrain, not just on range. RK62 (=M76 in the game). Basically I was shooting snapshots while moving at volleyball sized balloons some little less than 10m away. Couple dozen balls and few survived.
And I'm not even a good shot compared to average fellow finnish constript.

NCTH is madness.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 November 2013 21:52] by Moderator

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328391] Wed, 20 November 2013 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:700
Registered:July 2008
Totally agree with you. To be honest i don't understand reasoning behind NCTH balance, from what i've heard you need about 10 bullets to kill an enemy and everything is balanced after this. This causes only a little difference between top-tier mercs and muppets.

When i was in army i could shoot a still dummy target 400m away in the head with 35 years old G3A3 with a warped front sight from prone position and i have bad eye sight and shaky hands with next to little gun handling training. But in the game my lvl 6 merc with 95 MRK 92 WIS and 85 DEX with sniper training gets 8% hit ratio and modders can calling it normal just rustles my jimmies.

Weird thing is enemies doesn't seem to be affected can still fire accurately and changing CTHconstants.ini affects them tenfold.

I don't know what it is but it seems the game is trolling me in every aspect.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328400] Thu, 21 November 2013 02:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:279
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
FYI:
@Largon 10 tiles is 100Meters according to the normal map scale. so your snapshot shooting example is at 1 tile distance.


~~
Found in multiple threads NTCH was set up and the # of modifiers it allowed improved the ability of modders to adjust weapons to make them more real, unfortunately before NTCH could be balanced by its primary creator Real Life called him away from game. Since then many other things have improved in the game, but all the weapons suffer from a severe case of unrealistic range scale. 1 tile should be 1 or possibly 2 meters, however the original game and maps didn't work out that way.

My understanding is that AIMNAS with the big maps is about 1 tile for 3 meters and so the weapons there work much more realistically.

Beyond the flaws in the design I know many of the modders would love to have specific feedback on weapons, the issue is how do you take a RL person and convert them into stats so you can use them as a 'constant'/'contol' while you shoot different weapons and compile the data.





Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328401] Thu, 21 November 2013 03:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:700
Registered:July 2008
AIMNAS should be excluded from discusion because it will be OCTH exclusive unless Smeagol changes his mind.

I've myself made some NCTH modifications balanced around moving targets. Comparing to current NCTH systems if enemies are standing still you can easily hit them and if they are moving it's near impossible without bulletstorm. But problem is enemies can hit you no matter what if you are standing still even using pistols from ~30 range. If you are moving they occasionally miss you.

Either I'm extremely unlucky or CPU troops somehow cheats.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328407] Thu, 21 November 2013 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
pheloncab

 
Messages:279
Registered:August 2004
Location: So. Cal. or texas
I only brought up AIMNAS because its the only bigmap project I know of thats under weigh.

As for luck (RNG) vs Cheat, I can't comment about any hidden code since I don't look at that.
I know generally the elites get a bonus to hit (its in the ini) and I believe they don't have ammo issues and might ignore status penalties for a weapon, at least I can't remember a bad guy having a gun jam issue but then again maybe its some of them suicidal knife wielders and I just don't see it.

I would suspect part of the issue with the AI troops might be that the AI calculates cover, sight lines, and such during its moves in very specific and accurate detail. this would allow it a numbers advantage that would at times cause it to appear to have great 'luck' but thats just a late night guess.

I would suspect one of two futures for JA.
1) JA:F is a resounding modible sucess and in 5 years or so becomes the new 'stable' platform that mods are built from and it fixes or improves balance and the range scale within its engine

2) in a couple years AIMNAS reaches completion and with the BIGMAPs set up, people start to make more BIGMAPS and redo maps in BIGMAPS causing the range scale to change and then allowing more and better balancing to both CTH systems and so by 2017/18 we almost all are playing Large mostly well balance maps with even more new gunporn.

of course some form of both might occur.



Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328430] Fri, 22 November 2013 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:256
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Not sure why anyone force playing with NCTH when OCTH became quite well balanced in comparing few years ago. Just give NCTH break as need couple years for fine tunning :party:

AI is cheating no more then you or me it use same CTH calculations, however there is part of code which degraded AI CTH if level bellow expert.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328433] Fri, 22 November 2013 01:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Gambigobilla

 
Messages:700
Registered:July 2008
Other than AIMNAS every other mod forces you to play NCTH, and base 1.13 is boring as hell.

I don't want to hijack thread but what about enemy breath points? They don't seem to loose BPs by gun if they don't take damage from it. I can unload 2 rounds of buckshots from point-blank range to a heavily armored enemy but enemy seems he can use his full amount of APs next round.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328434] Fri, 22 November 2013 01:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3698
Registered:July 2009
Who forces you to use NCTH? Must be a new mod.


Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #328438] Fri, 22 November 2013 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kriplo

 
Messages:256
Registered:February 2008
Location: Zagreb - Croatia
Hm, BP are not part of AI CTH but is deducted during any action. Never observe this value during fixing APs problems with AI, will see next time when return to AI code.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333922] Sat, 28 June 2014 13:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oberst_Klink

 
Messages:13
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
Hello Ja2 Fans,
im playing a 1.13 AFS Campaign with the old Chance to Hit System. Now i wanted to test the NCTH Systen in the existing Campaign. Is there a way to switch them without starting a new Game? I red something about ja debug Modus, but i don
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333923] Sat, 28 June 2014 14:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3528
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Hi Oberst_Klink, welcome to the pit!

Nowadays you cannot change this mid-campaign. It can easily be changed via debugging though. You need a compiler for that (VS2010 or similar).

But in case you don't know what a debugger is or are not familiar with compiling, this would be somewhat of a effort. (You'd basically halt the exe midgame, and change a variable to something else).


Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333929] Sat, 28 June 2014 17:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oberst_Klink

 
Messages:13
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
Is the Gameplay between NCTH and OCTH very different so that it would be good to start extra a new Campaign or do you think the difference is only minimal?
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333930] Sat, 28 June 2014 17:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Flugente

 
Messages:3528
Registered:April 2009
Location: Germany
Well, only shooting is different. Depending on your own experiences, this could lead you to equip your mercs differently, and use different guns. Personally I wouldn't break a campaign.


Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333940] Sun, 29 June 2014 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oberst_Klink

 
Messages:13
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
Hello,
I have another Question, not really on Topic, but I hope it

[Updated on: Sun, 29 June 2014 17:53] by Moderator

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333941] Sun, 29 June 2014 17:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M16AMachinegun

 
Messages:304
Registered:September 2013
Place cleaning kit in your merc's inventory

Command: "CTRL" and Period "."

Select "Clean Guns"

[Updated on: Tue, 03 March 2015 04:06]

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #333952] Mon, 30 June 2014 01:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Oberst_Klink

 
Messages:13
Registered:June 2014
Location: Germany
THX M16AMachinegun,
these Command was totally unknown for me Surprised
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #339787 is a reply to message #333952] Mon, 02 March 2015 03:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eyestabber

 
Messages:25
Registered:February 2015
Don't use NCTH, it's complete and utter garbage. And don't bother downloading newer versions of 1.13, hoping they "fixed" NCTH either, because the system is MEANT to have very low to-hit chances. Apparently the modders believe that ""REAL"" soldiers are supposed to be blind bats. What you're reporting is NOT a bug, it's WAD.

The sad thing is that the IDEA behind NCTH is pretty awesome. If only someone would release a "people are no longer blind and stupid" ModMod, NCTH would be pretty salvageable. AIMNAS implementation of NCTH is actually pretty enjoyable and doesn't result on a retarded RNG missfest. It's all a matter of tweaking some numbers, not redoing the whole thing, IMO.
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #339791 is a reply to message #339787] Mon, 02 March 2015 10:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2800
Registered:May 2009
So why don't you just tweak the numbers to something you like? There are much more options in NCTH to tweak the system.
The old headshot game was "utter garbage" (to use your words) in my opinion because the results had nothing to do with real world gun fights. NCTH works just fine with the 1.13 defaults. You only have to let go the "every shot must hit" nonsense.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #339852 is a reply to message #339791] Thu, 05 March 2015 09:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
M16AMachinegun

 
Messages:304
Registered:September 2013
What numbers would you recommend, silversurfer?
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #339855 is a reply to message #339852] Thu, 05 March 2015 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2800
Registered:May 2009
I play on Experienced with the default 1.13 CTHConstants.ini which is working fine for me. Actually I like the increased number of misses. There is much more action now compared to the boring *bang* -> dead, *bang* -> dead, *bang* -> dead system that we had before NCTH. Autofire and also shotguns with buckshot are very useful.

I'm using the new automatically distributed IMP items so my IMPs got some poor SMGs and rifles/shotguns (depending on their traits) to start with. I don't know about itemization in UC/DL so I don't know if there need to be adjustments. UC/DL is probably lacking the new sidearm and trait specific weaponry.
I also test the new soldier/militia gun selection from this thread so the enemy is on par with me.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #340030 is a reply to message #339791] Thu, 12 March 2015 06:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eyestabber

 
Messages:25
Registered:February 2015
silversurfer wrote on Mon, 02 March 2015 09:30
So why don't you just tweak the numbers to something you like? There are much more options in NCTH to tweak the system.
The old headshot game was "utter garbage" (to use your words) in my opinion because the results had nothing to do with real world gun fights. NCTH works just fine with the 1.13 defaults. You only have to let go the "every shot must hit" nonsense.


Headshots are staple on both RPG and FPS. You are fixing what isn't broken.

"every shot must hit nonsense". Try playing AFS/DL/UC with NCTH THEN we talk. Vanilla 1.13 NCTH is okay-ish, but UC/AFS/DL implementation is absolute crap. 9% hit rate (read OP, please) is the same experience I had with AFS (I made a thread back then). Just PLAY the game with NCTH and realize how unplayable it actually is.

I'm sorry Silversurfer, I have no intention of offending you as a developer, but you are defending NCTH as if it were your child or something, instead at looking at the facts as presented by the players. If you still doubt me then create a new UC game, cheat your way into having a merc with 100 on every attribute + maximum level + give him a fully upgraded end-game gun and watch as you will STILL miss wide open/just-standing-still guys 10 squares away. If you think THAT is realism, fun or anything other than pure DERP then I will simply give up and move on...
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #340031 is a reply to message #340030] Thu, 12 March 2015 10:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2800
Registered:May 2009
The OPs post is from 2013...

I've been playing with NCTH since it was implemented. Yes, NCTH had its problems at start and yes, it had some bugs but those were fixed long time ago. I play with the 1.13 defaults which are fine. If a mod doesn't work with NCTH it's the job of the modder to fix it not mine. In addition to that YOU as a player can fix it yourself because it's all in the ini/xml files. You can simply use the values from default 1.13 if you are ok with them.

Some players still try to play NCTH like OCTH and try to aim with a 10x scope at 5 tiles range. This can't work.

Don't blame the system if it is fed with inappropriate parameters or used wrong by the player.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #340034 is a reply to message #340030] Thu, 12 March 2015 10:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
DepressivesBrot

 
Messages:3698
Registered:July 2009
Eyestabber wrote on Thu, 12 March 2015 05:43
Headshots are staple on both RPG and FPS. You are fixing what isn't broken.
If you want to make comparisons to other games (or rather, whole genres), then OCTH is equivalent to a cheesy interaction of jewelry, set bonuses, runes and buffs that neither the developers thought to limit nor the balance department managed to catch but which allows you to munchkin your way to getting a critical hit with every single shot you take with your bow. Except in OCTH that's a built-in feature of every rifle from midgame onwards.



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Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #341332 is a reply to message #340031] Wed, 03 June 2015 22:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tksolway

 
Messages:9
Registered:October 2010
Location: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Is there a good thread that describes the main differences between NCTH and OCTH?
Re: DL 1.13 and NCTH/OCTH[message #341341 is a reply to message #341332] Thu, 04 June 2015 08:57 Go to previous message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2800
Registered:May 2009
This thread describes the original concept of NCTH and how it differs from OCTH.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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