ofc i assume every tile in game is 1 meter.

I really don't think it is that easy. For starters, I agree, the default NCTH is not great. The main reason why it's not great will not be fixed by any kind of changes to CTHConstants. They are perfectly fine at this point. The main problem is that default weapon progression is made for OCTH and NCTH requires completely different approach. In NCTH a pistol should never be a primary weapon, just like it's not in any military or paramilitary organization in the world. Ammo is a bit too hard to find in sufficient quantities as NCTH is designed to require more shots to score hits. And so on and on. There are many such small things that are symptoms of halfassed NCTH adoption, which is probably a neccessity at this point, as long as we can't have different weapons used/dropped for NCTH/OCTH games.

Now, the not so main problem, but the one that gets most of the complaints is that NCTH works differently from OCTH. Which it is designed to do. That was the whole point of NCTH. And it is perfectly reasonable thing to dislike it if you prefer OCTH kind of game. But a thread like this is only going to end up with answers to the question how to make NCTH more OCTH-ish, not how to make NCTH better. And that shouldn't be a goal.

• Players expecting NCTH to work like OCTH.
• Players trying the headshot approach that worked so well in OCTH.
• Players giving poor mercs sniper rifles, hoping they could use them properly.
• Players using scopes at close range.
• Players not understanding the targeting reticule and/or the sight modes.
• Players ignoring the trait requirements for proper weapon usage.
• Players thinking that this is a shooting range with stationary targets and we all know that we can hit a stationary target in the eye at 200m distance using iron sights, right? At least some players have claimed that...
• The game still using pistols as primary weapons. This has been fixed somewhat for the player with better gear selection for mercs. However, the better gear is expensive and has to be selected manually.
• NCTH relying on auto weapons that require more ammo that is scarce until you capture Drassen airport (unless you are using an item mod that also provides better weapons to enemies from the start so you can scavenge ammo and weapons).

I think more improvements to using it would be found in things like drop rate (to get more ammo/attatchments) and probably some more tweaking of weapons. SDO did a lot to improve that, but i am not sure how much got absorbed back into the trunk where its stayed up to date with other improvements.

Apart from that, I agree that NCTH makes auto-fire much more stronger compared to OCTH, but in the hands of a Merc with auto-weapons/machine gunner trait. Machine gunner Mercs using high caliber machine guns which can take x7 scopes such as FN MAG are generally more useful than snipers. Nevertheless, a sniper/marksman with 100 marksmanship with x9 sniper scope will always shoot more accurate.

Marksman	67 kills	20 assists	51% hit ratio
Sniper		109 kills	18 assists	61% hit ratio
Machine Gunner	51 kills	23 assists	28% hit ratio
Hunter		52 kills	28 assists	61% hit ratio
Gun Fighter	105 kills	25 assists	42% hit ratio
Ira		20 kills	15 assists	47% hit ratio

Alternatively, perhaps we could add support for NCTH specific settings, for example an additional NCTH data directory with all the overrides necessary which might break OCTH balance - that could facilitate adding additional ammo drops or changing starting equipment to SMGs and low tier rifles instead of pistols, which seems to be the biggest early game issue.

changing starting equipment to SMGs and low tier rifles instead of pistols, which seems to be the biggest early game issue.

I don't know, inspired by this I actually started a new game on latest version, with vanilla settings (experienced, WF maps, but I delete all of the guns found on maps to simulate vanilla maps better), and it's, well, even more meh than I remembered. While the beginning is kinda crappy as only my two IMPs had any semi decent weaponry (read, not a pistol), it's still very easy to push progress to 10

On the other hand, at this point when I control whole of Drassen(not that hard with smallish default counterattack on experienced, I think that 40 blue militia would have defended it even without me) and half of Cambria, opponents still have 99% pistols only, and they are absolutely no threat whatsoever.

Novice		24
Experienced	40
Expert		60
Insane		96

Now, some of that might be due to the nature of WF maps or the "new" progress calculation which probably slows down the general progress unless you move it up artificially by "exploring" lots of uninteresting sectors just to push it up that way.

In the end, the problem now appears even harder to me. How to make the early NCTH game more palatable for people who kinda skip the strategic part of the game and just rush into combat, while not making it insultingly easy for people who use other tools that the game gives us at this point (get better equipment in San Mona, drag some militia with you, make a night op team for early game, whatever, the game has so many options).

You'll need to set MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER to a higher value if enemies aren't shooting at you. I know the feeling.
Wish it'd be split into MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER_PISTOLS, MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER_SMGS and so on to allow for fine-tuning.

Wait until I add Lev Arris' enemy weapon progression. There you will have regulars with rifles and SMGs from day 1.

Btw. I didn't receive feedback for the externalized counter attack group size values (as usual...). Would you say that they are too small? Just for recap - total attack force size is (with increasing # of Elites per difficulty):

Novice		24
Experienced	40
Expert		60
Insane		96

Yeah, looking at them now it seems a little low for a large assault group.

Progress doesn't increase through exploration. The default for GAME_PROGRESS_MAX_POINTS_FROM_EXPLORED_SECTORS is 0. I increased that to 5 in my game. It's still not much but better than the default in my opinion.

Actually, the only thing really needed is return 1% min chance for AI in NCTH beyond weapon range. Everything else is useless because AI doesn't check CTH when deciding best cover position. And if target is so far that the bullet cannot reach it, CTGT will be 0 and soldier will not shoot anyway.

I think that they are a bit on the low side, but I did the old one (80 plus guys) enough times that my opinion probably shouldn't be considered when default values are in question anyway it's probably better to make it a bit too easy then a bit too hard, people like us know where to increase it if we want...

The alternate progress calculation is on by default, at least in latest SCI that I installed, so i left it on. If I'm not wrong it gives everything equal weight but only counts the one criterion that is highest. So it is kinda easy to just wander around aimlessly to increase it a bit, but unless you do that, it can be a bit slower than the standard progression. Which keeps us longer in "sticks and stones as weaponry of choice" phase

I'm not sure what exactly you are talking about. There is a parameter AI_EXTRA_SUPPRESSION in Ja2_Options.INI. The current default is false. But that is only for setting 1% min CTH for suppression with automatic weapons. Do you suggest to generally set 1% min CTH?

if(Item[pSoldier->usAttackingWeapon].usItemClass & IC_THROWING_KNIFE)//dnl ch70 160913
{
	uiChance = CalcThrownChanceToHit(pSoldier, sGridNo, ubAimTime, ubAimPos);
}
else
{
	uiChance = CalcChanceToHitGun(pSoldier, sGridNo, ubAimTime, ubAimPos);

	// sevenfm: always small CTH for AI
	uiChance = max(1, uiChance);
}
...
FLOAT dMaxGunRange = dGunRange * gGameCTHConstants.MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER;
	if ( dMaxGunRange < d2DDistance)
	{
		// Weapon out of conceivable hit range. Reduce chance to hit to 0!
		// sevenfm: return 1 to allow AI to shoot
		return (1);
	}

UINT32 AICalcChanceToHitGun(SOLDIERTYPE *pSoldier, INT32 sGridNo, INT16 ubAimTime, UINT8 ubAimPos, INT8 bTargetLevel, UINT16 usAnimState)//dnl ch59 180813
{
	INT8 bTrueLevel;//dnl ch59 180813 if target is above ground CalcChanceToHitGun will return 0 because pSoldier->bTargetLevel contains some old values from previous target which was on ground level
	UINT16 usTrueState;
	UINT32 uiChance;

	// same as CCTHG but fakes the attacker always standing
	usTrueState = pSoldier->usAnimState;
	bTrueLevel = pSoldier->bTargetLevel;
	pSoldier->bTargetLevel = bTargetLevel;
	pSoldier->usAnimState = usAnimState;
	if(Item[pSoldier->usAttackingWeapon].usItemClass & IC_THROWING_KNIFE)//dnl ch70 160913
	{
		uiChance = CalcThrownChanceToHit(pSoldier, sGridNo, ubAimTime, ubAimPos);
	}
	else
	{
		uiChance = CalcChanceToHitGun(pSoldier, sGridNo, ubAimTime, ubAimPos);

		// sevenfm: always small CTH for AI
		uiChance = max(1, uiChance);
	}
	pSoldier->usAnimState = usTrueState;
	pSoldier->bTargetLevel = bTrueLevel;
	if(UsingNewCTHSystem() == true && !(Item[pSoldier->usAttackingWeapon].usItemClass & IC_THROWING_KNIFE))//dnl ch70 160913
	{
		////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
		// HEADROCK HAM 4: NCTH calculation
		//
		// In the new CTH system, the value returned by CalcChanceToHitGun is not an actual
		// chance to hit the target. In fact, it is simply a measure of how well the gun is
		// aimed. To get a good idea of whether or not a shot is likely to hit the target,
		// we need to take other factors into consideration.

		// distance to target
		FLOAT d2DDistance = (FLOAT) PythSpacesAway( pSoldier->sGridNo, sGridNo ) * (FLOAT) CELL_X_SIZE;
		// basic aperture that is equal for everyone
		FLOAT dBasicAperture = CalcBasicAperture( );
		FLOAT dMagFactor = CalcMagFactor( pSoldier, &(pSoldier->inv[pSoldier->ubAttackingHand]), d2DDistance, sGridNo, (UINT8)ubAimTime );
		// Get effective mag factor for this shooter. This represents his ability to use scopes.

		// silversurfer: New functionality for iron sights - There have been many complaints that iron sights lose their usefulness
		// very fast the farther the target is away. Setting IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS too high makes them overly powerful at
		// close range. This experimental formula implements a curve that lowers dBasicAperture the farther the target is away.
		// At 1 tile distance iBasicAperture will be the same as before. That's the common start.
		if ( gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHTS_MAX_APERTURE_USE_GRADIENT && dMagFactor <= 1.0 && !pSoldier->IsValidAlternativeFireMode( ubAimTime, sGridNo ) )

			dBasicAperture = dBasicAperture * ( 1 / sqrt( d2DDistance / FLOAT(CELL_X_SIZE) ) / gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHTS_MAX_APERTURE_MODIFIER
			+ (gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHTS_MAX_APERTURE_MODIFIER - 1) / gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHTS_MAX_APERTURE_MODIFIER );

		// iron sights can get a percentage bonus to make them overall better but only when not shooting from hip
		if ( dMagFactor <= 1.0 && !pSoldier->IsValidAlternativeFireMode( ubAimTime, sGridNo ) )
		{
			// iBasicAperture = iBasicAperture * (FLOAT)( (100 - gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS) / 100);

			// sevenfm: iron sights receive bonus only at day vision range
			INT16 sEffRange = CELL_X_SIZE * DAY_VISION_RANGE;
			if( d2DDistance <= sEffRange)
			{
				dBasicAperture = dBasicAperture * (FLOAT)( (100 - gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS) / 100);
			}
			else
			{
				dBasicAperture = dBasicAperture * (FLOAT)( (100 - gGameCTHConstants.IRON_SIGHT_PERFORMANCE_BONUS * 100 / (d2DDistance - sEffRange + 100 ) ) / 100);
			}
		}

		// laser pointers can provide a percentage bonus to base aperture
		INT32 iLaserRange = GetBestLaserRange( &(pSoldier->inv[pSoldier->ubAttackingHand]) );
		if ( iLaserRange > 0 
			&& ( gGameCTHConstants.LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP + gGameCTHConstants.LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON + gGameCTHConstants.LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE > 0) )
		{
			INT8 bLightLevel = LightTrueLevel(sGridNo, gsInterfaceLevel );
			INT32 iMaxLaserRange = ( iLaserRange*( 2*bLightLevel + 3*NORMAL_LIGHTLEVEL_NIGHT - 5*NORMAL_LIGHTLEVEL_DAY ) ) / ( 2 * ( NORMAL_LIGHTLEVEL_NIGHT - NORMAL_LIGHTLEVEL_DAY ) );

			// laser only has effect when in range
			if ( iMaxLaserRange > d2DDistance )
			{
				FLOAT fLaserBonus = 0;
				// which bonus do we want to apply?
				if ( pSoldier->IsValidAlternativeFireMode( ubAimTime, sGridNo ) )
					// shooting from hip
					fLaserBonus = gGameCTHConstants.LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_HIP;
				else if ( dMagFactor <= 1.0 )
					// using iron sights or other 1x sights
					fLaserBonus = gGameCTHConstants.LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_IRON;
				else
					// must be using a scope
					fLaserBonus = gGameCTHConstants.LASER_PERFORMANCE_BONUS_SCOPE;

				// light level influences how easy it is to spot the laser dot on the target
				FLOAT fBrightnessModifier = (FLOAT)(bLightLevel) / (FLOAT)(NORMAL_LIGHTLEVEL_NIGHT);

				// laser fully efficient
				if ( iLaserRange > d2DDistance )
					// apply full bonus
					dBasicAperture = dBasicAperture * (FLOAT)( (100 - (fLaserBonus * fBrightnessModifier)) / 100);
				else
				{
					// beyond BestLaserRange laser bonus drops linearly to 0
					FLOAT fEffectiveLaserRatio = (FLOAT)(iMaxLaserRange - d2DDistance) / (FLOAT)(iMaxLaserRange - iLaserRange);
					// apply partial bonus
					dBasicAperture = dBasicAperture * (FLOAT)( (100 - (fLaserBonus * fBrightnessModifier * fEffectiveLaserRatio)) / 100);
				}
			}
		}

		// aperture at target distance without magnification
		FLOAT dAperture = dBasicAperture * (d2DDistance / gGameCTHConstants.NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE);
		// magnification (1.0 or higher if scope is used)		
		FLOAT fEffectiveMagFactor = CalcEffectiveMagFactor( pSoldier, dMagFactor );
		// modify aperture with magnification
		dAperture = dAperture / fEffectiveMagFactor;

		// real aperture for shooter based on CTH calculation
		dAperture = dAperture * ( 100 - uiChance ) / 100.0f;

		if (dAperture == 0)
		{
			return 100;
		}
		else
		{
			// silversurfer: This cannot be correct. An aperture of 10 already gives a very good chance to hit. If we take this value and
			// calculate the target area it's PI * 10 * 10 which results in ~300 (rounded down) and not 28.26. This low number was the reason why AI
			// was so reluctant to fire their weapons from farther away. It just never got any useful uiChance.
			//FLOAT dTargetArea = 28.26f; // Calculated area of a target given known human body size.
			//FLOAT dTargetArea = 300.0f; // new definition
			FLOAT dTargetArea = 80.0f; // sevenfm: new definition

			// Aiming at the head is much harder. Assume aperture 5 for this.
			if ( ubAimPos == AIM_SHOT_HEAD )
			{
				dTargetArea = 20.0f; // sevenfm
				//dTargetArea = 80.0f;
			}

			FLOAT dApertureArea = (FLOAT)(M_PI * (dAperture * dAperture));

			uiChance = (UINT32)__min(100, (dTargetArea / dApertureArea) * 100);
		}
		FLOAT dGunRange;

		// Flugente: check for underbarrel weapons and use that object if necessary
		OBJECTTYPE* pObjAttHand = pSoldier->GetUsedWeapon( &(pSoldier->inv[pSoldier->ubAttackingHand]) );

		dGunRange = (FLOAT)(GunRange( pObjAttHand, pSoldier ) );

		FLOAT dMaxGunRange = dGunRange * gGameCTHConstants.MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER;
		if ( dMaxGunRange < d2DDistance)
		{
			// Weapon out of conceivable hit range. Reduce chance to hit to 0!
			// sevenfm: return 1 to allow AI to shoot
			return (1);
		}
		else if ( dGunRange < d2DDistance)
		{
			FLOAT dChance = (FLOAT)uiChance;
			FLOAT dMaxChanceReduction = (dChance * gGameCTHConstants.MAX_EFFECTIVE_RANGE_REDUCTION);
			if (gGameCTHConstants.MAX_EFFECTIVE_USE_GRADIENT)
			{
				// Just outside range. Reduce considerably!
				return min(uiChance, (UINT)(dChance - (dMaxChanceReduction * ((d2DDistance - dGunRange) / (dMaxGunRange - dGunRange)))));
			}
			else
			{
				return (UINT)(dChance - dMaxChanceReduction);
			}
		}
	}
	return( uiChance );
}

because of different type of scopes and especially you have to attach/detach scopes everytime because some weapons dont let you use iron sights

[*]Players not understanding the [...] sight modes.

In default 1.13 the MINIMUM_POSSIBLE_CTH is set to 0. As this applies to everyone I guess we could simply set it to 1 instead of changing the code.

Your AICalcChanceToHitGun puzzles me. You return 1 if the target is out of dMaxGunRange but allow to return 0 if it is out of dGunRange? Is that intended?

gougluinn wrote on Mon, 17 September 2018 10:25

because of different type of scopes and especially you have to attach/detach scopes everytime because some weapons dont let you use iron sights

Sounds to me like

silversurfer wrote on Sun, 16 September 2018 10:18

[*]Players not understanding the [...] sight modes.

Pretty much all railed assault rifles can fit a reflex sight, if not on the central mount, on top of a 4x scope (iirc 7x also have this capability). Press "." to switch between the two (and hip-fire if you have that enabled).

I've not played JA2 without NCTH recently enough to even remember the differences. I find that it reflects how I'd expect combat to play out generally - it's mostly about suppression and accuracy by volume, while you need really good equipment and very skilled shooters to leverage sniper rifles or anything approaching that territory.
That said however, I do think there's room for improvement.

@ LatZee

What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?

ZedJA2 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 22:07

@ LatZee
What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?

SDO is Stock Data Overhaul, which is an item mod that can be installed on top of vanilla 1.13 or various other mods. I have discovered it recently,

crackwise wrote on Thu, 20 September 2018 01:14

ZedJA2 wrote on Wed, 19 September 2018 22:07

@ LatZee
What is SDO? Is it another replacement for NCTH or OCTH?

SDO is Stock Data Overhaul, which is an item mod that can be installed on top of vanilla 1.13 or various other mods. I have discovered it recently,

looks like there is some secret agreement over sdo here i guess. no one wants people to discover that mod. if any forum mod reads here please add "SDO" to Stock Data Overhaul's thread title because no one writes Stock Data Overhaul when he talks about it and when you search thread title with SDO you find nothing.

looks like there is some secret agreement over sdo here i guess. no one wants people to discover that mod. if any forum mod reads here please add "SDO" to Stock Data Overhaul's thread title because no one writes Stock Data Overhaul when he talks about it and when you search thread title with SDO you find nothing.