Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 Coding Talk » Experimental Project 7
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358210 is a reply to message #358209] Sun, 06 October 2019 22:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
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Well, if I understand correctly my unprecisly message caused misunderstanding.

It was not about giving option "what vision fields do i get at that tile if I use one of the dozen vision modifiers i have in inventory"
I thought it may be the easiest way to code if you attach a "virtual duplicate" of the active merc to the cursor,
with her/his current modifier, stance, direction, etc, i.e. as if you teleport the merc there.
So player must turn merc, or raise weapon, equip nvg if he wants that specific info.

Precision of view overlay at tile X could even be modified by xp lvl, scout, wisdom, consumed drugs, nervous trait, distance to tile, you name it ;)

[Updated on: Sun, 06 October 2019 22:07]

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Master Sergeant
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358212 is a reply to message #358210] Mon, 07 October 2019 13:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Improved version of merc cover display in r1249.



Press SHIFT when in merc view mode to see possible 360 degree view on selected spot.
All current sight bonuses and penalties apply, including current merc's stance and equipment, only merc's position is changed and 360 degree vision simulated.
For example, if you want to see possible vision field with scope at new spot, you need to raise weapon for your merc, if you want to see possible vision field with NVG on, you need to put on NVG for your merc.

[Updated on: Mon, 07 October 2019 13:29]




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358213 is a reply to message #358212] Mon, 07 October 2019 14:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
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Thank you @sevenfm!

Hopefully many players will recognize how helpful it can be,
not only during battle but also when preparing for incoming attacks,
to estimate vision field of enemies entering the sector and find good defense and fallback positions.

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Master Sergeant
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358215 is a reply to message #358183] Tue, 08 October 2019 00:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise is currently offline crackwise

 
Messages:113
Registered:April 2013
Thanks for the ini file example Sevenfm! I have tested the settings a bit. I think the reason was mainly because I use range_coefficient=1.2 by default, that's why probably your NCTH fix had a larger impact in my version.

Apart from that, I like NCTH a lot, but despite using SDO I still get quite often crazy autofire up in the air (even with mercs +95 accuracy). Is there a way to limit it manually in the ini file? I would like to have more lateral dispersion rather than vertical, for instance.

Besides, what does vertical bias do? I see that you have changed it to 1.0 in your version. What was the reason for that change?

Thanks a lot! I love the new sneaky AI behaviour bay the way, and how they fall back.

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358217 is a reply to message #358215] Tue, 08 October 2019 00:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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VERTICAL_BIAS has no effect in Ja2+AI, it's always 1.0 for visuals and 0.5 for bullet distribution calculation. In stock 1.13 it works in a strange and unrealistic way, reducing vertical distribution when you shoot prone or crouched, and turns NCTH cursor into ugly ovals.
Autofire accuracy does not depend on merc's accuracy, as far as I understand. If your mercs shoot up in the air with autofire, they don't have enough strength to compensate gun's recoil. You can probably tweak recoil values in CTHConstants.ini under [Shooting Mechanism], reducing strength needed but not recoil accuracy. For example, you may want to double RECOIL_MAX_COUNTER_FORCE and see how it works. I personally think that recoil system works well - if your merc is not strong enough to control weapon in autofire, use less powerful ammo or add muzzle brake or shoot with bipod etc. Noone shoots autofire in real life with m14, for example, because you will literally shoot in the air with second or third bullet.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358218 is a reply to message #358217] Tue, 08 October 2019 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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When I use autofire I almost always aim at the legs. The recoil will pull the gun up and it's not unlikely that the next bullets will hit the torso or even the head.


Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358221 is a reply to message #358218] Tue, 08 October 2019 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ortis is currently offline Ortis

 
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I'm trying to change Fox characer trait from show off to loner. I can't get it to work with WF607+SDO
I have made changes in all the MercProfiles.xlm I can find but nothing takes. (got it to work with vfs_config.113.ini with no problem)

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358222 is a reply to message #358221] Tue, 08 October 2019 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Ortis wrote on Tue, 08 October 2019 23:35
I'm trying to change Fox characer trait from show off to loner. I can't get it to work with WF607+SDO
I have made changes in all the MercProfiles.xlm I can find but nothing takes. (got it to work with vfs_config.113.ini with no problem)
If you are talking about my unofficial modpack, then sorry, it's not designed for easy modding. If you want to mod the game, it's better to install official mods and change them to what you like.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358223 is a reply to message #358222] Tue, 08 October 2019 22:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ortis is currently offline Ortis

 
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yes, so when I start for example vfs_config.WF607+LP.ini or vfs_config.WF607 I have managed to change the trait to Loner. But I can't get it to work with WF607+SOD or AR+SOD

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358224 is a reply to message #358218] Wed, 09 October 2019 01:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise is currently offline crackwise

 
Messages:113
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Yes, I aim at the legs also to compensate for the recoil. But it would be better to have it already calculated in i.e."considered" by our mercs.

Besides, I am not sure if it is fair, since I guess the AI does not know that, right? It would actually be cool, or at least fair, that AI also aimed at the legs when autofiring.

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358225 is a reply to message #358224] Wed, 09 October 2019 01:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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crackwise wrote on Wed, 09 October 2019 03:02
Yes, I aim at the legs also to compensate for the recoil. But it would be better to have it already calculated in i.e."considered" by our mercs.
If you have a high skilled merc, he can predict and compensate recoil.

Headrock wrote in CalcPreRecoilOffset()
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// HEADROCK HAM 4: New Shooting Mechanism, Pre-Recoil Calculation
//
// The new recoil system works on the premise that each gun has its own recoil force
// and direction. After X shots with enough recoil, the muzzle of the gun will be pointing
// a certain distance off the center of the target. After a few bullets have been fired,
// mercs get a chance to begin applying counter-force to act against recoil, and given
// enough bullets might even be able to push their gun back towards the target's center.
// However, by this point several bullets will have been wasted, and the muzzle may already
// be pointing very far from the target's center.
//
// To compensate for this, experienced characters can anticipate the recoil of their gun
// before it even starts firing. Instead of aiming the first shot at the center of the
// target, these characters will aim it at a location which would, once recoil kicks in,
// rake the gun over the target. This minimizes the distance by which the last shot will
// be offset from the target's center, making it easier to return the muzzle towards the
// center once the character gets the chance to start applying Counter-Force.
//
// To visualize this, imagine a gun like an AK-47, which pulls very strongly upwards.
// Experienced soldiers know that if they aim at a target's legs, the first bullets will
// then "rake" upwards, hitting the target in the legs, abdomen, torso, and possibly the
// head. By this point, if they continue autofiring, they'll be able to get control
// of the gun and keep it pointed at least close to the torso. If their volley had started
// while pointed at the torso, they'd be firing above the target by now...
crackwise wrote on Wed, 09 October 2019 03:02
Besides, I am not sure if it is fair, since I guess the AI does not know that, right? It would actually be cool, or at least fair, that AI also aimed at the legs when autofiring.
AI can shoot at legs if opponent is standing (so he can fall). Base chance to shoot at legs is 15%, +15% if target is running, +15% if using NCTH and shooting with autofire/burst, +30% if opponent is zombie or has no gun. Final chance to shoot at legs is modified by CTH, so that soldiers don't waste bullets shooting at legs with low CTH.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358226 is a reply to message #358225] Wed, 09 October 2019 03:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hawkeye is currently offline Hawkeye

 
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When did that recoil feature become available? Is that a 1.13 feature or something you have edited/tweaked Seven? I may have to shoot more at the legs from now on with less skilled mercs.

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358227 is a reply to message #358226] Wed, 09 October 2019 04:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Hawkeye wrote on Wed, 09 October 2019 05:54
When did that recoil feature become available?
When Headrock invented NCTH in 2011 or so.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358246 is a reply to message #358227] Tue, 15 October 2019 00:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise is currently offline crackwise

 
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Hi Sevenfm, I am using AR + SDO + AI r1292. I have a strange bug where some enemies, who are not supposed to be visible, are actually strangely visible. Here is a save file, note the enemy sentries in the south-east:
https://send.firefox.com/download/f456ca051c354258/#vK1BbaQP_a2mAbgRms5N-g

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358248 is a reply to message #358246] Tue, 15 October 2019 00:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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crackwise wrote on Tue, 15 October 2019 02:09
Hi Sevenfm, I am using AR + SDO + AI r1292. I have a strange bug where some enemies, who are not supposed to be visible, are actually strangely visible. Here is a save file, note the enemy sentries in the south-east:
https://send.firefox.com/download/f456ca051c354258/#vK1BbaQP_a2mAbgRms5N-g
Strange bug, don't know why it happens. Tested it with actual r1294 - once enemy leaves his spot, he seems to behave normal.
Please report if it will continue to happen with new version in new battles.
I can also recommend to update to r1297 as it fixes critical bug.

[Updated on: Tue, 15 October 2019 08:18]




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358259 is a reply to message #358248] Tue, 15 October 2019 23:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise is currently offline crackwise

 
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Hi Sevenfm, I think my game bugged out somehow. I reverted to a previous autosave and things seem fine. I am nevertheless explaining the issue and posting a savegame file so that it may perhaps be helpful:

What I experience in the savegame posted blow is that there are enemies according to the overhead map. However, there are no enemies in the sector to be found.

This issue started happening after I went back to a sector where two enemy soldiers had retreated. They were not visible on the map itself, despite the overhead indication. I therefore suspect the enemy retreating feature had something broken.

Here is the savegame:
https://send.firefox.com/download/0d4e11982f35bd87/#dtNEkoI56j0PtqnlM7adJA

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358262 is a reply to message #358259] Wed, 16 October 2019 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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@crackwise enemy retreating is disabled in actual r1298 build. I may re-enable it in the future, but it needs a lot of testing.


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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358293 is a reply to message #358262] Sat, 19 October 2019 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise is currently offline crackwise

 
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Hi sevenfm, I would like to point out a strange thing regarding artillery strikes, which used to exist since almost always. At the beginning of the turn when artillery shells land, almost all enemies in the vicinity become visible. This is probably an unintended bug.

Apart from that, I believe it would also be much better if the enemy did not start to run and leave the artillery area. This results almost always in them leaving their cover charge straight ahead to my troops/militia to get easily slaughtered. This is also not realistic, since in reality the best thing to do when under mortar/artillery strike is to take cover and stay put, since the strike is intended for a large area and running would get you shrapnelled to death. Is it possible to change this behaviour? (FYI: I have manually decreased the damage of mortar rounds, so it mainly acts as an area stun and suppression support)

[Updated on: Sat, 19 October 2019 17:23]

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358297 is a reply to message #358293] Sat, 19 October 2019 23:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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crackwise wrote on Sat, 19 October 2019 19:23
Hi sevenfm, I would like to point out a strange thing regarding artillery strikes, which used to exist since almost always. At the beginning of the turn when artillery shells land, almost all enemies in the vicinity become visible. This is probably an unintended bug.
I don't remember that in my games. Are you using stock 1.13 signal smoke which has a buddy flare explosion attached?

Quote:
Apart from that, I believe it would also be much better if the enemy did not start to run and leave the artillery area. This results almost always in them leaving their cover charge straight ahead to my troops/militia to get easily slaughtered. This is also not realistic, since in reality the best thing to do when under mortar/artillery strike is to take cover and stay put, since the strike is intended for a large area and running would get you shrapnelled to death. Is it possible to change this behaviour? (FYI: I have manually decreased the damage of mortar rounds, so it mainly acts as an area stun and suppression support)
Need to think about it. Default behaviour is the same as leaving gas/light/armed explosive area, maybe it should be changed to "run into nearby cover and spread out" instead.

Also check r1321, it has some improvements to red smoke avoidance - soldiers will try not to move closer to known opponents, also they will use terrain with high density as cover from artillery strikes (and also buildings).

[Updated on: Sun, 20 October 2019 06:28]




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358499 is a reply to message #332214] Fri, 15 November 2019 22:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
crackwise is currently offline crackwise

 
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Hi Sevenfm, I am playing AR + SDO + AI r1340 and see that the bug regarding footsteps visualization is back again. The footsteps visualization shows the path as movable despite there is not enough AP. Here is the screenshot: https://imgur.com/J2PmMVd

You can find the savegame here: https://send.firefox.com/download/4dc7f23812e1e433/#JU_AZNXgRchWWudoaOi_kg

Apart from that, if the interrupt bug is fixed, is it possible to enable diagonal door opening again? It was quite a useful feature when clearing rooms.

[Updated on: Fri, 15 November 2019 22:48]

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358501 is a reply to message #358499] Sat, 16 November 2019 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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crackwise wrote on Sat, 16 November 2019 01:47
Hi Sevenfm, I am playing AR + SDO + AI r1340 and see that the bug regarding footsteps visualization is back again. The footsteps visualization shows the path as movable despite there is not enough AP. Here is the screenshot: https://imgur.com/J2PmMVd

You can find the savegame here: https://send.firefox.com/download/4dc7f23812e1e433/#JU_AZNXgRchWWudoaOi_kg
Will take a look, thank you.

Quote:
Apart from that, if the interrupt bug is fixed, is it possible to enable diagonal door opening again? It was quite a useful feature when clearing rooms.
Sorry, no one is working on fixing interrupt bug in 1.13 as far as I know. I cannot re-enable it because in current state it's just cheating.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358504 is a reply to message #358501] Sat, 16 November 2019 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Amgot is currently offline Amgot

 
Messages:12
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Hi sevenfm,

a couple of questions for you as I'm preparing to install and play Arulco Revisited for the first time:

In your unofficial modpack's readme, there are several different versions of AR available :

2. Arulco Revisited 1.4 + Strohmann's update + fixes
2. Arulco Revisited + Lev Progression
3. Arulco Revisited + SDO mod

- Does "Arulco Revisited + Lev Progression" also includes Strohmann's update + fixes?
- Does the "fixes" part refer to CVB fixes or have you made additional fixes on top?
- Which version of Lev Progression is used? v1 or v2.1?

Also I'm planning on using your 7609+AI exe on top of AR but how well does your 7609+AI exe work with OCTH (I'd rather stick to OCTH to be honest)? And is there any interest in using SDO if I stick to OCTH?

Thanks a lot for all your work!

[Updated on: Sat, 16 November 2019 21:04]

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358505 is a reply to message #358504] Sat, 16 November 2019 21:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I would recommend playing with AR+SDO version, it should have all fixes, also in my opinion SDO in this modpack is the most balanced item mod both for OCTH and NCTH.
I often play with SDO in my modpack (it has changes compared to original SDO by Strohmann) using OCTH, and it works well for me. OCTH should be better balanced when using +AI exe, and scopes less overpowered, there's also additional movement penalty when using scopes.
Sorry I don't remember exact versions for other mods, it should be possible to check by comparing if you are really interested.
Also, if you want to play with specific version, maybe it's better to download official versions you like and make your own custom modpack.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358506 is a reply to message #358505] Sat, 16 November 2019 23:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
Messages:384
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Btw 7609en+Modpack.7z
AR+IoV_revised has several inconsistencies, perhaps most crucial are obviously wrong items placed on maps,
e.g. some silenced M24A3 .338 sniper rifles in the sectors "close to" A9, an empty Cheytac M200 near/in San Mona,
luckily the 338 SR is only a nice paperweight after the 4 - 6 kills from its 5 rounds;), or a source of income.
As far as i can see it would be a hunter vest if the items xml from the data-1.13 folder is used instead of data-IoV_revised.
Weapons found on maps unload items in [magSize]% condition instead of mags, some "nada" items,
and approaching the western room of kingpins mansion from inside(sector cleared, confirmed by gabbi) caused dozens of freezes here,
cant remember something like that in JA2, my main suspect as reason was approaching an invalid item.
(mainly because thats what I get in e.g. Wiz8 when a game entity with missing data is spotted/used etc)
Also what and how much of it fits in which pockets is quite unreasonable for several items/pockets,
the stoner gun available from the bartender brothers is useless because it has no or invalid ammo assigned
(unless that is intended to teach people to carefully check before buying;) ...


While I managed to remove all appearing obstacles up to now, based on crashes&freezes that happened so far
( the latter of the nasty type which locks the keyb, requiring shutdown and boot of the machine,
unless it has function keys that usually still work and can trigger a suspend to ram/disk,
then the program either will not survive the wake up at all, or at least the keyb is working again and the process can be killed)

I would not be surprised if this campaign ends not because the game beats me, but because it completely bugs out.


So it may make sense to add hint in a readme etc
that this combination of AR maps and IoV items results in "more than minor" flaws.
Also was unaware that saves of newest AI exe releases are apparently incompatible with standard 7609 exe,
(that is probably mentioned at given point in AI exe history log, which is not contained in the pack;)



However, having much fun nevertheless as I like both AR maps and IoV items,
so thanks for the pack ;)

[Updated on: Sat, 16 November 2019 23:12]

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358515 is a reply to message #358506] Tue, 19 November 2019 17:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I will have to remove AR+IoV and WF+IoV then, I thought IoV should work well with 1.13 items, maybe something changed in "revised" version.
As far as I know, +AI saves should be compatible with stock 1.13, but sometimes I had compatibility problems with them. I don't remember changing save data in my project.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358516 is a reply to message #358515] Tue, 19 November 2019 21:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
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Well, as indirectly expressed in the last sentence of my previous message,
I dont think it is necessary to remove those parts containing IoV from the package.
There is the option to just accept the flaw of wrong items on maps, either ignoring or exploiting them (some OP sniper rifles),
And AR delivers enough ammo on maps to not make the ejected wrong mags mags transforming into weird items a balance issue.

My knowledge on how the various parts of 1.13 are mixed together filewise is quite limited,
I guess it is not possible to tell 1.13 to use different item.xml files for maps and BR, Soldier equipment etc?
(in case yes, items.xml is missing in file \mods\data-ar.7z)
Assuming no, the main issue appears to be conversion of the item references on the maps to IoV's items.xml (pls correct me if i am wrong)
Cant that be done automatically by The Bob's JA2MapTool?
Or has it already been used and it left some wrong items?

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358517 is a reply to message #358516] Tue, 19 November 2019 21:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I don't want half-working mods in my modpack, I also removed WF+AFS for that reason earlier.
I replaced removed AR+IoV and WF+IoV with NO+IoV and TypeP+IoV, since those maps use vanilla items that seem to work well with IoV, I also removed all changes to traders except Tony and Devin, so no more guns from bartenders.

You can use only one item mod at a time, so you have to either modify xmls or change maps, manually or using map tool.
If someone converts Arulco Revisited and Wildfire 6.07 maps to only use vanilla items, it will allow using them with more item mods like IoV or AFS.

[Updated on: Tue, 19 November 2019 22:22]




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358520 is a reply to message #358517] Tue, 19 November 2019 23:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitty

 
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sevenfm wrote on Tue, 19 November 2019 21:41
... If someone converts Arulco Revisited and Wildfire 6.07 maps to only use vanilla items, it will allow using them with more item mods like IoV or AFS.
townltu wrote on Sat, 16 November 2019 23:09
... that this combination of AR maps and IoV items results in "more than minor" flaws....
I'm trying to update AR to newer 1.13 versions for quite some while now (started this with 8675/2475, now 8704/2482) and decided to make two versions, one without any changes to items and only the most nescessary map changes (mostly things like placements of desktop-pc and stuff like that) and another one with slightly more map-changes , new maps and changed, expanded tilesets. One major reason for doing this was Latzee pointing out that I'll otherwise will loose compability to item-mods. As far as I know, IoV is also going to be transferred to latest 1.13 versions by Piotr 1987.

AR itself uses no own items.xml, so I thought I'd be on the save side doing so. It might be a misunderstanding on my side, but reading your conversation, there seem to be problems I'm not aware of (haven't run into item-problems so far myself).

So I'd better ask:

- townltu, can you please tell me what other item-placements concerned you, so that I can look into AR maps if this is anyhow related to them?

- sevenfm, can you please tell me in more length what is need to be done to convert AR-maps for use with item-mods? If am able to this for my project this should be usefull for 7609 as well, at least as far as I understand.

Thanks.



How to get: latest 1.13, 7609 and more | 7609 SCI (eng) | Compiling+SVN

I need more details. (Didi Hallervorden)

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358521 is a reply to message #358520] Wed, 20 November 2019 10:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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@Kitty as I understand, IoV and AFS work well with vanilla items but not 1.13 items. So in theory, if you replace all 1.13 items with vanilla items on maps, it will help to combine IoV and AFS with AR. You can do it manually with map editor, or using mentioned map tool. I never used that tool, cannot help with it.


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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358523 is a reply to message #358521] Wed, 20 November 2019 14:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xafloz is currently offline Xafloz

 
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sevenfm, are the fixes and AI enhancements of yours present in newest 8xxx revisons of 1.13?

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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358524 is a reply to message #358523] Wed, 20 November 2019 14:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Xafloz wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 17:46
sevenfm, are the fixes and AI enhancements of yours present in newest 8xxx revisons of 1.13?
Mostly, no.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358525 is a reply to message #358521] Wed, 20 November 2019 14:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitty

 
Messages:436
Registered:October 2017
Location: Germany
@sevenfm: Geez, that doesn't sound very appealing. If I understood correctly, vanila is referring to 1.12 or 1.05. So first task would be to find out which items have been added over the last 20 years, which sounds close to impossible. Then learn which vanilla items are replaced by which Item-mod-Item and place them on map while keeping sector-coolness and overall balance in mind, which would be possible but a tremendous amount of work. And most likely there is even more then this to keep in mind. I get a glimpse of the idea why you are saying "in theory".

But since learning more about item-placement is on my agenda anyhow, this is very useful information to me. I have no intention at all of doing a item-mod myself, transfering a map-mod is allready a much bigger task as I ever imagined. On the other hand, I'd love to present something as compatible as possibly to those item-mods. So it seems that it can't be helped and I have to look into how item-mods are working in more detail. IoV and AFS are being that old that they are refering to vanilla items has been something I haven't known to begin with.

Ok, I'll wind my thoughts arround this and will dig for further informations. Thanks for those helpful insights.



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Master Sergeant
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358526 is a reply to message #358524] Wed, 20 November 2019 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xafloz is currently offline Xafloz

 
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sevenfm wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 14:47
Xafloz wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 17:46
sevenfm, are the fixes and AI enhancements of yours present in newest 8xxx revisons of 1.13?
Mostly, no.
Hmmm... that's a pity as I see those changes in AI in 7602 as quite impressive.

So...are you planning to implement them in 8xxx in the future? As it is possible at all...

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358527 is a reply to message #358525] Wed, 20 November 2019 14:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Kitty wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 17:54
@sevenfm: Geez, that doesn't sound very appealing. If I understood correctly, vanila is referring to 1.12 or 1.05. So first task would be to find out which items have been added over the last 20 years, which sounds close to impossible.
It's first 346 items, you can check Data\TableData\Items\Items.xml which only has vanilla items.

Quote:
Then learn which vanilla items are replaced by which Item-mod-Item and place them on map while keeping sector-coolness and overall balance in mind, which would be possible but a tremendous amount of work. And most likely there is even more then this to keep in mind. I get a glimpse of the idea why you are saying "in theory".
It's not a huge task, you just make two excel tables and spend a couple of hours finding matching items (mostly guns and maybe LBE), comparing stats and coolness.
After that, if you learn how to use map tool, the rest should be automatic.

Anyway, I think you will be more than busy with other work updating AR.
Also, if you are interested, there is version of AR by Strohmann with scaling loot, which means he replaced all items on all maps with random items which are translated by the game into real items of appropriate coolness.

[Updated on: Wed, 20 November 2019 15:02]




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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358528 is a reply to message #358526] Wed, 20 November 2019 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Xafloz wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 17:59
Hmmm... that's a pity as I see those changes in AI in 7609 as quite impressive.
Not nearly as impressive as I wanted them, honestly.

Quote:
So...are you planning to implement them in 8xxx in the future? As it is possible at all...
No, sorry, it's out of the scope of my little project.



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Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358529 is a reply to message #358528] Wed, 20 November 2019 15:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Xafloz is currently offline Xafloz

 
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sevenfm wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 15:01


Quote:
So...are you planning to implement them in 8xxx in the future? As it is possible at all...
No, sorry, it's out of the scope of my little project.
Damned.

(have failed to attache a detonator to tnt ;) )

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Corporal 1st Class
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358530 is a reply to message #358520] Wed, 20 November 2019 18:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
townltu

 
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[expletive]!! the board software just logged me out on preview of the reply,
which was ofc gone since there is no auto restore function (respectively its not activated)
Must i get used to ctrl+A -> ctrl+C before hitting any "send" or "preview" button also on this board?

However, here we go again:

Kitty wrote on Tue, 19 November 2019 23:51
...
- townltu, can you please tell me what other item-placements concerned you, so that I can look into AR maps if this is anyhow related to them?

1st thing the majority of players will likely notice, like me, is the M24A3 SWS (short name M24A3) silenced 338 sniper rifle
in the most southern house of sector A10, think its the sectors only undamaged building,
in the cabinet where you usually find the 1st aid kit (i.e. not the locker w canteens)
Iirc the cabinet is on gridno 17702.
Looking at IoV's items.xml the M24A3 has uiIndex 1176 items.xml of vanilla \data\... folder has only iirc 346 entries,
while 1176 in items.xml of 1.13 is the hunter vest, which would make perfect sense to me.

Note the M24A3 has no ammo or attachments, so its not unbalancing the game in matters of op equipment,
until you take Estoni and can order ammo (i guess its already available at progress zero)
Financial imbalance can be avoided by simply deleting the various M24A3s (stopped counting at 5)
but its at least annoying in my book.



Did not write down any other wrong placements,
but ofc remember the Cheytac M200(also bare of anything) in one of San Mona's sectors,
its uiIndex is 1181 in items.xml of IoV, equals to again more reasonable No. 32 scope in 1.13

Then there are several items placed on maps which i think are are wrong,
their conditions are usually at the capacity of the mags they probably represent,
based on the fact that i get the same items on the cursor when i manually eject mags via [shift]+[r-click],
not sure whether from weapons dropped by soldiers or weapons also placed on the map
I would guess the latter, since there were no mags for the AUG Hbar but two M9 silenced pistols in Tixa
bith have ID1059 in their related(?) xmls, and else Soldiers may also drop weird stuff,
if my basic understanding how all this works together is not wrong.
Tell me what i shoiuld look for in my campaign,
i will keep an eye on that and report to destination of your choice, i.e. here, other topic or via PM.


btw and somewhat OT, i must say that the base design of 1.13 is not really modding friendly,
has anybody used madgods Cosmic Forge Editor for Wizardry 6 - 8 on Wiz8?
Its an all in one editor created by a single person and constantly improved since ~17y,
in all sub editors for items, monsters, loot, locations(3D), NPCs(incl non cryptic script commands;), spells, encounter tables, missiles, items, facts (=global variables) and the lists for the different types of game entities,
a 2x click on an entry will instantly call the sub editor related to the specific entry.

The only thing that leaves the desire for improvement open is the manual, unless you are as familar with CF as I am ;)


Some thoughts on how modding 1.13 respectively combining sub mods in 1.13 could be improved:

As far as i know (again cmiiw), it is required to have at least ammo mags in ascending order regarding their capacity,
which created a lot of hassle for edmortimer when he added mags of different size,
effectively keeping him away from repeating it for more mag sizes
and resort to workatrounds like no crates for specific cartridges in order to make space for a few new mag sizes.

One approach could be to create an items xml where every cartridge gets mag sizes assigned from 1 to 100 in single steps,
and some up to 200 as the afaik highest number, e.g. for 5.56 MG belts.
If other items respectively their category behave similar,
they also must get a ton of placeholders which covers any numbers of variations that we can imagine to come.
Ofc every thing has to be adapted to that huge items.xml,
but the quite demotivating fact that all your work of adaption is gone as soon as a new revision comes up
would not be present and more people may be motivated to do that work.
Aso, I think it is not required to
"spend a couple of hours finding matching items (mostly guns and maybe LBE), comparing stats and coolness."
OO or Excel functions should allow to do that automatically,
with the limitation that iirc both only work on a single data block,
so you may have to move columns which are likely to have difference in entries,
like weapon name, its AP cost or whatever differs from a mod to base 1.13 (probably also "nada" items lines)
to the beginning or end of the block, in order to avoid false positives.
You could tell the program to add an entry in front/at the end of every line for which it has found a reference in the other xml,
so you only have to look at the remaining entries for which no reference has been found (there will be a lot remaining;)
btw its always a good practice to add ascending index numbers for every line (in front)
in case you delete/move lines or sort the whole according to a different column.


OO and excel also allow to link entries in specific input fields to entries of input fields other files,
meaning if you change an items value in items xml it can also affect the related entry in the xml for weapons,
soldier equipment, dealer inventory etc.
Ofc those other xml files require different or more entries than we have in items.xml
the leaast effort solution may be a sheet which contains all possible entries for every existing xml,
and use some macros to collect the appropriate columns for the specific xml files,
paste into new file and save them as *.xml to disk,
or paste into notepad++, phase5, scite etc in case OO/Excel cant export in correct format.



Optionally it should be possible to teach the game to use multiple items.xml files.
Imagine the code adds a value to each item according to the specific xml from which it was taken,
As long as maps, dealer inventories, soldier equipment etc uses its single specific .xml
i cant see any collisions (coders may instantly see several;)
Ofc that could result in e.g. Glock 17 from mod A which could require a different amount of APs to use
than its twin from mod B.



"so no more guns from bartenders"
I think that contradicts AR's theme of "living off the land",
hopefully its not coded and can easily be undone in a .xml

[Updated on: Wed, 20 November 2019 18:12]

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Master Sergeant
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358531 is a reply to message #358527] Wed, 20 November 2019 18:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitty

 
Messages:436
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sevenfm wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 14:59
Anyway, I think you will be more than busy with other work updating AR.
That's oh so true. Whenever i get a grip on some loose ends and start "knitting", i stumble about something and the whole ball of wool is rolling downstairs again. suprised

sevenfm wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 14:59
Also, if you are interested, there is version of AR by Strohmann with scaling loot, which means he replaced all items on all maps with random items which are translated by the game into real items of appropriate coolness.
I remember having played this, but have forgotten about it until now. This sure will be worth looking into. Thanks for reminding me.

sevenfm wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 14:59
It's first 346 items, ...
Data\...Items.xml, that's been easier then I thought.

sevenfm wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 14:59
It's not a huge task, ...
Given the fact how often I end up comparing different kind of overhead.lua and other lua-scripts, comparing items and stats sounds familiar speechless I only had a short glimpse into the map-tool, maybe I'll give it another try. Back then I had close to zero knowledge about tilesets and map-editor which I gathered by now to some degree.
Anyhow, it seems much more doable then I thought.

But as stated in first quote, it's true that I should also keep in mind to stay focused. I tend to let myself being distracted and this game has so many interestening things that it is easy to get distracted as well. Items are a matter I have to deal with sooner or later anyhow, but for today, as e.g., I have to playtest if I succesfully implemted the changes to scrounging/wealth in sectors.

As allways, thanks a lot.



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Master Sergeant
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358532 is a reply to message #358530] Wed, 20 November 2019 20:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kitty

 
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townltu wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 18:08
... Looking at IoV's items.xml the M24A3 has uiIndex 1176 items.xml of vanilla \data\... folder has only iirc 346 entries,
while 1176 in items.xml of 1.13 is the hunter vest, which would make perfect sense to me.
Ok, that's probably why sevenfm is saying non-vanilla items shouldn't be on the map. Since IoV likely has the highest priority in vfs its item.xml will overwrite any other item.xml. And if IoV is old enough to only know the 347 first entries, the creators most likely wouldn't have bothered with higher numbers then that. My guess will be that any number higher then 347 will be misplaced items, some are fitting, some not. In 1.13 hunter vest is 1176, in IoV it's 1793 (refering to IoV-revised). So anything higher then 347 most be deleted from the maps and replaced with reasonable items provided by IoVs item.xml. To find out what's reasonable one has to compare a lot of things, like both, you and sevenfm, mentioned.

townltu wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 18:08
... Did not write down any other wrong placements,
but ofc remember the Cheytac M200(also bare of anything) in one of San Mona's sectors,
its uiIndex is 1181 in items.xml of IoV, equals to again more reasonable No. 32 scope in 1.13
That's probably the same issue. Anything higher then number of original vanila-items will be somehow misplaced.

townltu wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 18:08
... As far as i know (again cmiiw), it is required to have at least ammo mags in ascending order regarding their capacity,
which created a lot of hassle for edmortimer when he added mags of different size,
effectively keeping him away from repeating it for more mag sizes
and resort to workatrounds like no crates for specific cartridges in order to make space for a few new mag sizes.
I remember having read about this struggle as well. In case of IoV, I haven't looked into how they handled ammo mags. If this has been a condition back in its time of creation as well, the creators hopefully have paid attention to this. Can't say anything else before taking a look. But my guess will be that problems with ammo mags likely also happen because of misleading index-numbers of the item.xml.

townltu wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 18:08
... Aso, I think it is not required to
"spend a couple of hours finding matching items (mostly guns and maybe LBE), comparing stats and coolness."
OO or Excel functions should allow to do that automatically, ... in correct format.
Well, that would be very nice. But I have to confess that my knowledge of excel is close to zero, so... I would open up map-editor and look which items are placed (summary), see if anything feels out of the way, note those and then compare the item.xmls of IoV and Vanilla with notepad++. Change placement in map-editor based on this. Playtest if anything is missing/ still wrong and repeat these steps until I get the feeling I have rooted out and replaced all. And yes, I konw, that's probably a rather ridiculous way to do shy but I'm old and stubborn. happy


townltu wrote on Wed, 20 November 2019 18:08
..."so no more guns from bartenders"
I think that contradicts AR's theme of "living off the land",
hopefully its not coded and can easily be undone in a .xml
The xmls for this stuff can be found in folder npc-inventory. Descriptions how to handle those can be found in Flugentes Thread (Flugente Magika Workshop), either under Additional Dealers or New Merchants. There is a trick to what the numbers are refering to, better read the details there.
Personally, I say there is no need for them selling guns. Don't know if this is true for 7609-stable version, but as far as I recall you can add any kind of dealer and can make any npc to an dealer as well. What kind of stuff they are selling (inventory) probably also must be changed to fit the items.xml from IoV.

Another thing that's bothering me is that the item.xml of IoV likely also miss quite a few item-tags that have been added after it's creation. That probably can cause issues as well.

All this said, I have to state that I will priorize my transferring of AR to newest build over looking deeper into this matter. But like mentioned above, I asume that sooner or later I will end up with looking deeper into this stuff since I'd realy like to see those two mods working together. I'm kinda slowpoke, so just don't expect too much and too soon, sorry. shy

You provided me with a very good point to start from and I learned more about how things are connected. Thanks for this help. happy

Ok, I'm off, playtesting stuff.



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Master Sergeant
Re: Experimental Project 7[message #358576 is a reply to message #358532] Sun, 01 December 2019 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Amgot is currently offline Amgot

 
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Hi sevenfm, I've opted to start with a campaign of UC 1.13 before trying my hand at AR but I've encountered a few problems:

- I can't find how to edit settings for the UC campaign from the INI editor when using your modpack: is there any way to tweak the settings? From the INI editor, I can only edit the following INIs: stock 1.13, AFS, AV, IOV

- because of the abovementioned issue, I've tried to do without your modpack by installing JA2 + JA2 1.13 7435 and 7609 + UC 1.13 v4.50. Everything works well but I can't run the game with your JA2+AI.exe, I get an error message about a certain resolution not being supported. Does that ring a bell?

- not strictly UC-related but is it advisable to use the APBP constant to switch back to a base 25 AP system? I know the base 100 AP offers superior differentiation between weapons but I just can't get used to it. I do envision a few issues with the bonuses/maluses brought by the new trait system though (which was designed to be used with a 100 AP system).

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