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icon5.gif  "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #361996] Sun, 06 December 2020 22:21 Go to next message
Kurt is currently offline Kurt

 
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Registered:March 2004
What is the <AimLevels> tag supposed to do?

I would had expected, given the name, that it limits how many aim clicks you get depending on stance (for instance, it's more difficult to aim a LMG while standing, or a grenade launcher while lying down. But apparently it's not that.

The "AimLevels" value doesn't seem to change anything, you always get the same number of aim clicks, on all three stances.
Most scopes have a lone "AimLevels" setting, only for the standing position, which is very strange. I can't imagine what could change on a scope depending on stance, and if it is about the lack of stability negating the bonus of high-magnification scopes, then the difference should be standing/crouched vs. prone, not standing vs. crouched/prone (I mean both "standing" and "crouched" should get an aim penalty, unless your weapon is resting on something). But anyway, it doesn't seem to work in the game.
Only when prone you get more aiming clicks (and don't ask me now which setting creates that!... Bang head)


Please guys, is there a rational explanation, while I have still some hair left?...

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Master Sergeant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #361997 is a reply to message #361996] Mon, 07 December 2020 00:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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Registered:May 2009
<ubAimLevels> in Weapons.xml defines the default aim level of a gun.

<AimLevels> in Items.xml is a modifier to the default aim levels.

Keep in mind that there are certain limits of how many aim levels a gun can have. Also in NCTH less aim levels are good, more aim levels are bad, because it takes more time to reach max aim.

You need to use the corresponding aim mode to see the correct aim levels of the sight you're interested in. If you're in iron sight mode, you can't see the aim levels caused by a scope and vice versa.

The difference between standing and crouched for scopes is intended. When crouched you can rest your elbow on your thigh.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362001 is a reply to message #361997] Mon, 07 December 2020 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt is currently offline Kurt

 
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silversurfer wrote on Sun, 06 December 2020 23:15
<AimLevels> in Items.xml is a modifier to the default aim levels.
Thanks.
So how do you explain the 10x sniper scope (#208) having an "AimLevel" of 3 for "standing"?
I'd be tempted to read that as "you get 3 additional aim clicks when standing", which doesn't make any sense at all. If anything you should get less, as I explained above.


silversurfer wrote on Sun, 06 December 2020 23:15
You need to use the corresponding aim mode to see the correct aim levels of the sight you're interested in. If you're in iron sight mode, you can't see the aim levels caused by a scope and vice versa.
I'm guessing it defaults to the right (scope) mode, given the little icon, doesn't it?


silversurfer wrote on Sun, 06 December 2020 23:15
The difference between standing and crouched for scopes is intended. When crouched you can rest your elbow on your thigh.
Do you mean it's hardcoded?

Anyway, while this thigh thing is true, it won't work for precision rifles: Beyond some distance you even need to take in account wind & weather, so the shaky support of a living body simply won't do if you're trying to hit something at a distance.

It would be simpler and easier if all rifles had a default aim of 1 click (iron sights), with a bonus of another click when resting on something. Sniper scopes should have 2 clicks while standing, 3 while crouching, and 4 when prone or resting on something. Bipod prone adds yet another click, so prone with a fully equipped sniper rifle would get you 5 aim clicks.
For small scopes (2x to 4x) you'd have 2 clicks while standing, and given their lesser precision, 3 while crouching or prone (shaking support isn't a problem).

Just IMHO, but that's what I'd like to implement in my game, so I'm trying to modulate the aim clicks using the stance modifiers, except they don't seem to be working at all!...

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Master Sergeant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362002 is a reply to message #362001] Mon, 07 December 2020 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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Yes, with the 10x scope you get 3 additional aim clicks when standing. This is a big penalty, because you can't rest your gun anywhere.

No, it's not hardcoded. The modifier is defined in Items.xml, as you found out.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362003 is a reply to message #362002] Mon, 07 December 2020 17:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt is currently offline Kurt

 
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silversurfer wrote on Mon, 07 December 2020 16:23
Yes, with the 10x scope you get 3 additional aim clicks when standing. This is a big penalty, because you can't rest your gun anywhere.
suprised suprised suprised
"Penalty"?

All right, we're definitely not speaking about the same thing then.

Why is "additional aim clicks" a penalty, since you improve your aim with each click/mouse wheel increment?


==== EDIT ====

I made a test: I gave a Barrett M98 (that's the .338 Lapua Barrett) with a bipod and a "Scope 10x" to Dimitri (to make sure there is no Skill interfering).
Note all stance modifiers were removed from the Barrett M98. The "Scope 10x" retained his default <AimLevels>3</AimLevels> in the <STAND_MODIFIERS> category.

I sent Dimitri to an enemy sector, and once there, gave him an "Energy Boost" shot, to make sure he would have more than enough APs.

This is what I counted while aiming at an enemy: 4 aim clicks while standing or crouched, 8 clicks while prone.

Then I removed the scope 10x to check the difference: 4 aim clicks while standing or crouched, 5 clicks while prone. 3 clicks missing? Hmmm, could it be a coincidence, or did those 3 "standing" clicks end up in "prone"?

To be sure I edited the Items.xml, deleted the current modifier and put <AimLevels>4</AimLevels> in the <PRONE_MODIFIERS> category, to see what changes.
Putting the scope 10x back on the rifle I got: 4 aim clicks while standing or crouched, 8 clicks while prone... The exact same values as with the default setting.
This proves the game doesn't give a damn about "AimLevels". angry

[Updated on: Mon, 07 December 2020 22:07]

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Master Sergeant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362010 is a reply to message #362003] Tue, 08 December 2020 19:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee is currently offline LatZee

 
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Kurt wrote on Mon, 07 December 2020 16:28
silversurfer wrote on Mon, 07 December 2020 16:23
Yes, with the 10x scope you get 3 additional aim clicks when standing. This is a big penalty, because you can't rest your gun anywhere.
suprised suprised suprised
"Penalty"?

All right, we're definitely not speaking about the same thing then.

Why is "additional aim clicks" a penalty, since you improve your aim with each click/mouse wheel increment?
Because aim levels do not change the max aim/precision/whatever you want to call it, they just dictate the number of additional aim clicks you need to achieve that 100%. So a 10x scope with 1 additional aim level would be equally good as the one with 3, it would just require 2 clicks less to achieve it (so it would be better in fact).

As for your test, you might be hitting max possible aim levels that Silversurfer mentioned in his post, so adding even more would have no effect.

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Staff Sergeant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362011 is a reply to message #362010] Tue, 08 December 2020 20:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt is currently offline Kurt

 
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LatZee wrote on Tue, 08 December 2020 18:49
Because aim levels do not change the max aim/precision/whatever you want to call it, they just dictate the number of additional aim clicks you need to achieve that 100%. So a 10x scope with 1 additional aim level would be equally good as the one with 3, it would just require 2 clicks less to achieve it (so it would be better in fact).
Wait, you mean that the number of aim clicks is just a subdivision of a weapon's fixed aiming capacity?
That a weapon with 4 aim clicks is as precise as a weapon with 1 aim click, it just needs more APs to be aimed?
Hmm, that would finally explain what silversurfer hinted at some posts above. not sure


LatZee wrote on Tue, 08 December 2020 18:49
As for your test, you might be hitting max possible aim levels that Silversurfer mentioned in his post, so adding even more would have no effect.
I don't really care about the amount right now, I'm actually just trying to get stance modifiers to work:
No matter the max aim levels, I would had expected that moving the existing "AimLevels" modifier of the scope from "standing" to "prone" would change something in-game. Even if one stance maxes out, the other should show some change. Yet it doesn't, and that's strange and quite worrying.

I'm using AimLevels because it's the only setting which should be readily visible to the user. I have no way of readily assessing "Handling" modifiers (for instance) inside the game.

Now I think I start to understand the whole AimLevel thing, please another question: silversurfer spoke about "default aim levels" and "modifiers to those default aim levels". Where is the "max aim levels" setting you're talking about now? silversurfer just mentioned "some limits", but didn't elaborate.

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Master Sergeant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362014 is a reply to message #362011] Tue, 08 December 2020 21:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
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Registered:May 2009
You probably remember aim levels from OCTH. There more aim levels are a good thing because they increase your CTH.

In NCTH system more aim levels are just a waste of time to reach maximum CTH. That's why I love the gunslinger with two machine pistols. Only one or two aim clicks to reach maximum CTH at a decent range.

There are several options to define possible aim levels.

AIMING_LEVELS_REDUCTION_ON_ALTWEAPHOLD
ALLOW_EXTRA_AIM_LEVELS
DYNAMIC_AIMING_LIMITS
AIM_LEVELS_DEPEND_ON_DISTANCE
VERY_HIGH_POWER_SCOPE_AIM_THRESHOLD
HIGH_POWER_SCOPE_AIM_THRESHOLD
MEDIUM_POWER_SCOPE_AIM_THRESHOLD

Have I forgotten some? Maybe.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362017 is a reply to message #362014] Wed, 09 December 2020 16:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kurt is currently offline Kurt

 
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silversurfer wrote on Tue, 08 December 2020 20:46
You probably remember aim levels from OCTH.
Yes, I definitely do!
Don't forget, I'm a time traveler coming straight from 10+ years ago, so what you said further up confused me to no end.
How could I guess that this apparently familiar feature had changed to the opposite?...


silversurfer wrote on Tue, 08 December 2020 20:46
AIMING_LEVELS_REDUCTION_ON_ALTWEAPHOLD
ALLOW_EXTRA_AIM_LEVELS
DYNAMIC_AIMING_LIMITS
AIM_LEVELS_DEPEND_ON_DISTANCE
VERY_HIGH_POWER_SCOPE_AIM_THRESHOLD
HIGH_POWER_SCOPE_AIM_THRESHOLD
MEDIUM_POWER_SCOPE_AIM_THRESHOLD
I don't recall seeing most (if not all) of them. Are those accessible settings, or just internal variables?
(I'm obviously only interested in things I can change to make a given weapon work as I want it to.)


And now for the elephant in the room:
How do you people explain the lack of any change when I change something inside the stance modifiers?
Understand I'm not interested in badmouthing or pointing fingers or making fun of, all I want is to know is if this is due to some bug (shit happens), or if I'm doing something wrong (and in that case, what it is).

[Updated on: Wed, 09 December 2020 16:04]

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Master Sergeant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362018 is a reply to message #362017] Wed, 09 December 2020 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009
I did the same test as you and now I understand what you mean with the value not changing for different stances. If you look at the description box for the gun or the 10x scope itself, you can see that it has +3 aim levels for all stances, not just standing. This is because these are inherited from the next higher stance unless there are explicit values defined for a certain stance.

Example 1 - you define +3 aim levels for standing, then this carries over to all stances below that.
Example 2 - you define nothing for standing and -1 aim level for crouched, then you will have nothing for standing and -1 aim level for crouched and prone.
Example 3 - you define +3 aim levels for standing and 0 for prone, then you will have +3 aim levels for standing and crouched and 0 extra aim levels for prone.

I hope this makes it clearer.


edit: About those parameters I mentioned before. They are from JA2_Options.ini.

[Updated on: Wed, 09 December 2020 17:59]




Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant
Re: "AimLevels" tag? Does it work, and what does it do?[message #362023 is a reply to message #362018] Thu, 10 December 2020 15:05 Go to previous message
Kurt is currently offline Kurt

 
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silversurfer wrote on Wed, 09 December 2020 16:56
I did the same test as you and now I understand what you mean
Thank you for your time! happy


silversurfer wrote on Wed, 09 December 2020 16:56
This is because these are inherited from the next higher stance unless there are explicit values defined for a certain stance.
suprised OMG! *facepalm*
How is one supposed to guess that?...

I knew there had to be a rational explanation, that's why I didn't post this in "bugs", but in the "xml WTF" forum.


silversurfer wrote on Wed, 09 December 2020 16:56
I hope this makes it clearer.
It does, thanks. thumbs up
Still, some comments in the "items.xml" #0 entry would go a long way towards reducing confusion, and preventing people from asking stupid questions in the forums...

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Master Sergeant
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