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Survival camo boost[message #365700] Sun, 27 August 2023 18:08 Go to next message
Bullpup is currently offline Bullpup

 
Messages:42
Registered:December 2020
I tried making IMP with survival trait that gives +20 camo effectivnes. I put different LBEs on the IMP to see if the camo percentage would change and it did not. When I click on the camo so it shows how much % of woodland, urban and desert camo I had, the survival trait did not show any change.

What I expected is that by wearing 10% woodland camo LBE, I would get 12% camo becose of the survival trait 20% effectivnes bonus. Is the camo boost bugged/not working or is the camo boost working, just not showing in numbers?

If I have 20% camo bonus from survival and 5% from paratrooper background, does that mean camo above 80% is waste becose the boost will boost it over 100% (80×1.2×1.05=100) or do these camo effectivnes bonuses work up to 100% camo from armor, lbe and camo kits?

In INI settings I see camo can block up to 80% of vision range with 100% camo, I want to know how the Survival trait or Spotter, Stalker, Paratrooper background camo effectivnes boosts interact with this limit.

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Corporal
Re: Survival camo boost[message #365712 is a reply to message #365700] Fri, 01 September 2023 22:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bullpup is currently offline Bullpup

 
Messages:42
Registered:December 2020
I did some testing and what I found was shocking. Survival trait breaks this game. If you have 100% wood camo and survival trait, then you become completly and permanently invisible on wooden terrain. The camo in this game with default INI settings is way too powerfull. Even without any survival/background camo boost, when prone with 100 camo, the enemies will spot you when 5 tiles away. Throw in some Spotter/Stalker background and it shrinks to 3-2 tiles. Since survival +20% makes you invisible while prone, when you add Spotter +10% camo on top you become invisible while crouched.

I am not sure what person decides on what default values are in INI editor when you fresh install the game, I dont know who came up with the Survival trait or Spotter background but it seems like those people/that person did not check or think good enough if these camo increases break the gameplay. The AI surrounds the camo merc like swarm of flies, they walk back and forth and never attack or detect the merc, not even in melee range. I can kill  whole Drassen counterattack with  1 imp or Shadow without losing 1 hp on ironman insane difficulty.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 September 2023 10:54]

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Corporal
Re: Survival camo boost[message #365715 is a reply to message #365712] Sat, 02 September 2023 11:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Asdow is currently offline Asdow

 
Messages:127
Registered:August 2010
I'm not too surprised. There are a lot of features in 1.13 that are at the proof-of-concept level instead of properly taken to their natural conclusion, as that usually entails a bunch of tedious testing and rework. Thanks for reporting it, we'll definitely need to note this down for the planned re-balancing project

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Sergeant
Re: Survival camo boost[message #365716 is a reply to message #365715] Sun, 03 September 2023 11:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bullpup is currently offline Bullpup

 
Messages:42
Registered:December 2020
How do you plan to rebalance the camo? I got idea on new camo system that will be based on random number rolls, that is it will be chance based.

The problem that enemies cant detect Survival 100% camo merc in melee range would not be such a problem if it didnt work for infinite time and no matter what the merc is doing/shooting. I think its realistic and fun mechanic if Survival 100% merc would be invisible up to melee range, but it should work only as long as the merc is not moving,shooting or doing anything.

My idea is that the camo detection would work in tickrate system with random number generator and instead of certain outcomes, it would work on probability system. That way merc could get very powerfull camo but it wont work forever, he couldnt clear whole map with himself without taking damage. The sooner or later, the random number generator would roll such numbers that will make the merc detected.

Also, I would put mechanic in game that after camo merc will be spotted in certain area, his effective camo will be lowered when inside that area. In my testing with Survival camo merc, I would stand up, become detected by 30 nearby enemies and then go prone and disappear. This makes AI look really stupid and its cheesy exploit to win easily. It would be more realistic and challenging if enemy AI had ability to counter this cheese by being able to mark area around spotted camo merc where the effective camo will be lowered.

Its like in real world, camo makes someone blend in, but once you find that person, finding him again in same area becomes much easier becose you expect it and you know what to look for.

[Updated on: Sun, 03 September 2023 11:10]

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Corporal
Re: Survival camo boost[message #365717 is a reply to message #365716] Mon, 04 September 2023 13:51 Go to previous message
Shadooow is currently offline Shadooow

 
Messages:109
Registered:April 2009
Location: Czech Republic
That won't be fun at all.

My main problem with stealth in 1.13 when I last played it 2 years ago was that it was just not effective enough and there was no clear way/indicator to know if you will be spotted or not. Playing stealthy was impossible without save scumming and even then it was just way too slow and inefficient way to kill enemies. Sure it was fun, but they don't actually react on corpses (in vanilla 1.13 afaik) so while the option to move them is there, really no point doing it especially when it takes so much AP and energy.

Stealth kinda works early, but the moment there starts to be elites it just doesn't work anymore and you get spotted with high camo % from 5 tiles when you are crouching behind big rock and instantly bursted to death.

On the contrary, just running around with athletic and oneshotting enemies with knives worked very well and was much faster and fun way to clear maps. In night you always got a turn when spotting enemy (early to mid-game at least) and could just run to body range to them. And if there were more enemies (which made this strat harder to execute unless you had full team of mercs with athletic+melee traits) you could actually just turn around, run away from their vision range, press D and it was real time mode again.

So in my opinion stealth, should be made realiable, even to the point it is overpowered and nearly 100% as long as the camoflaged soldier is not moving (and then these camo penalties from some LBE shouldn't apply at all too) and hidden behind some obstacle. The vulnerability window should be when such soldier is moving/killing enemies. If paired with an AI upgrade where they would react at least on dead bodies, that could be fun to play again.

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Sergeant
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