Home » MODDING HQ 1.13 » v1.13 General Development Talk » Better default NCTH settings contest (Post your NCHT tweaks, win a prize!)
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355018 is a reply to message #355015] Thu, 20 September 2018 20:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silversurfer

 
Messages:2793
Registered:May 2009
I added the following values for NCTH to DifficultySettings.xml in GameDir 2445:

Toggle Spoiler


The defaults give a moderate bonus on Novice and a small bonus on Experienced difficulty. Expert and Insane get no bonus but you can change that if you like.
This requires an exe of revision 8615 or greater.

Btw. I also enabled the extra elites in counter attacks again. Feels wrong just to sweep them under the carpet.



Wildfire Maps Mod 6.07 on SVN: https://ja2svn.mooo.com/source/ja2/branches/Wanne/JA2%201.13%20Wildfire%206.06%20-%20Maps%20MOD

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Lieutenant
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #355046 is a reply to message #355018] Sun, 23 September 2018 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Taleman is currently offline Taleman

 
Messages:68
Registered:October 2010
Location: Finland
I have played with NCTH since I got 1.13. I found it very frustrating to do battle, it was too difficult to get any hits. Same applied to enemy, though. They run out of ammunition before the battle was finished.

I got settings from sevenfm, I have used them since. Now the battles seem much more reasonable. http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=21864&goto=350657&#msg_350657

I am surprised shotguns are being used. I have given up on them altogether. Even merc with Hunter trait misses all the time with shotgun.

I would say this is because five tiles away looks on the screen like a point blank range, when it actually is 50 meters distance.

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Corporal
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #364805 is a reply to message #355046] Tue, 16 August 2022 22:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
dooobrila is currently offline dooobrila
Messages:1
Registered:August 2022
Just want to say that who ever created new aiming system, instead of the old one... Trying to make compactible JA2 1.13 mod to him self and his needs. These aiming system destroyed this game, since you updated CtH system to this, I am playing original version with out mod. Stop destroying this game, fix some bugs such as clock loading icon that is animating 24h, add new weapons, add new system of leveling militia, add system of personal guard or something like that stop ruining things that was made this mod perfect.

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Civilian
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #365910 is a reply to message #364805] Mon, 19 February 2024 10:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
1Sascha is currently offline 1Sascha
Messages:3
Registered:February 2024
Not even sure what 1.13 build I'm running but it's at least 9 or even 10 years old at this point (2014 or 2015 release IIRC). Since JA3 made me fire up my old installation of 1.13 and I stupidly neglected to disable the new chance to hit system, I'm going to necro this thread to vent a bit:

I'm really starting to get annoyed with this NCTH-stuff - so much so that I'm probably going to restart my campaign so that I can switch it off, even though I already took Drassen and Chitzena and their respective SAM-sites and am currently in the process of taking Cambria. I hadn't fired up 1.13 in a *long* while so I forgot some of the more intricate details of doing things in combat, but I *think* I spent most of my time in 1.13 back in the day in versions that didn't have the NCTH-system - or at least not this sort of NCTH or maybe it was even switchable mid-campaign. I can't seem to switch it off in the options in this build and disabling it in the INI doesn't seem to work (even though disabling "advanced repair" does for example). In any case: I'm not expecting to be able to head-shot everything from half a map away and I always play on "Expert", so I'm a bit of a glutton for punishment when it comes to JA2/1.13.

All that said: This system is producing ridiculous results. I always start with one or two IMP Mercs and only hire one higher tier AIM Merc (usually Raven) and pick up Ira as a medic and (eventually) militia trainer. This used to work pretty well in the past, though I usually cheese the insane Drassen counter-attack (I've seen over 100 enemies in-sector during that in some versions of 1.13) by hiding in the bar and using interrupts to kill everyone who walks in. This results/resulted in some pretty good stats on all my Mercs by the time the Drassen counter was done. But even with Raven at level 5 and with marksmanship at 95 or 96, she will miss super easy shots on targets at closer ranges (~10 tiles) with an M-14 that has an ACOG and bipod attached. Doesn't matter how many APs I invest in aiming, she'll still find a way to miss the torso of a dude standing still or walking slowly towards her at that range.

I just recruited Lynx and gave him my only sniper rifle (Steyr Scout) to see if he would suck as well and ... yup. Doesn't matter if I use the default 7x or my recently acquired 10x scope on the gun: He will still miss easy shots over and over.
On the other hand, my second IMP Merc has the auto weapons trait but started out with underwhelming marksmanship (65 IIRC - better to invest points into max wisdom and let them learn on the job) - and her hit-rate is much higher than I would've expected. But only if I let her use an SMG with 3-round burst mode and if the distance isn't too great.

And reading up on NCTH on the web it seems that the new system is forcing you to burst-/auto-fire whenever possible to increase your chances to score a lucky hit. And that's supposed to be more "realistic"? In a game that has rocket rifles and gigantic insects lurking underground, I might add. I can't help but chuckle when folks speak of "realism" WRT gun-play in this game. I did my (then) mandatory service with the Red Cross instead of with the Bundeswehr but even I know that automatic fire is usually not the preferred method of spending your ammo in combat. Well aimed single shots are the ticket and this game now seems to rely heavily on spray and pray, at least in the early to mid section of the campaign.

I think I'm going to give this campaign one more RL day to convince me, but if/when I start a new one, I am *definitely* going to switch off the NCTH-system. Hopefully that will also remove that laughably huge aiming cursor...




S.

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Civilian
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #365912 is a reply to message #365910] Mon, 19 February 2024 19:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee is currently offline LatZee

 
Messages:185
Registered:December 2015
This is 100% what we're talking about from the start, people not understanding how NCTH works, expecting it to work like OCTH and then complaining that it doesn't. "Put the biggest scope on the biggest rifle" to get the best weapon for all situations is OCTH thing that NCTH is literally intended to change. Using ACOG at distances like 10 tiles is highly counterproductive in NCTH. To quote the relevant parts of CTHConstants.ini

; This setting represents the longest distance at which Iron Sights are 100% effective.
; Beyond this range, shooting accuracy begins to drop, and a scope will be required
; to avoid that drop.
; ALL SCOPE RANGES ARE DETERMINED BY THIS VALUE. For instance, a 2x scope will
; negate penalties for shooting at twice this distance. A 10x scope will
; negate penalties for shooting at ten times this distance.
; By decreasing this value, you can make all shots more accurate, and naturally
; make scopes more powerful.
; This value is an INTEGER, with a range of 10 to 1000. The distance is
; measured in METERS, not tiles, so 100 means 10 tiles.
NORMAL_SHOOTING_DISTANCE = 70

and

; The Scope Range Multiplier is applied against a scopes magnification to determine
; the scopes minimum effective range.  Sniper and Hunter training has a slight effect
; on this.  Valid range is 0.5 - 1.5, with a default of 0.7.  The higher you set
; this multiplier, the less effective scopes become.
SCOPE_RANGE_MULTIPLIER = 0.7

So that means that for ACOG, a 4x scope, optimal distance at which it is 100% effective is 4 times normal shooting distance, so 28 tiles. 0.7 times that distance, so 19-20 tiles is minimum effective range for that scope, anything closer than that and ACOG is starting to make shots harder to hit. At 10 tiles it's making your chances to hit significantly worse. It is even more pronounced for 7x (minimum range around 35 tiles) or 10x scopes (minimum range of 49 tiles).

NCTH makes weapons conditional, so that in different situations, different weapons/configurations are better than the others in contrast with OCTH where it is completely linear, bigger gun always better, bigger scope always better.

And yes, even with optimal equipment, NCTH makes hit rates lower across the board, so you can't rely on superhero mercs to predictably hit literally all of their shots (and make them headshots). That is literally the kind of gameplay that NCTH is trying to remove. So if you want to preserve that kind of gameplay, use OCTH. AS for switching between OCTH/NCTH in the middle of the game, that is not a problem for any version of 1.13 newer than r8610 from 2018, see http://thepit.ja-galaxy-forum.com/index.php?t=msg&th=23855&goto=354656&#msg_354656

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #365913 is a reply to message #365912] Mon, 19 February 2024 19:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
1Sascha is currently offline 1Sascha
Messages:3
Registered:February 2024
LatZee wrote on Mon, 19 February 2024 19:08
AS for switching between OCTH/NCTH in the middle of the game, that is not a problem for any version of 1.13 newer than r8610 from 2018,
Hmm... I don't have access to my 1999-vintage CDs of JA2 at the moment, so I can't simply re-install the game, I'm afraid. Just checked my version number and it's *quite* a bit older than the version you quote .. (7435). .. big grin

As for the rest: I do understand the reasoning behind the new system, it's just a bit weird that a guy like Lynx is unable to hit simple, medium-ish range shots with a 7x or even 10x scope. Besides: Modern scopes do have variable magnification in RL, so it's not like 10x glass is stuck at that high level of "zoom" ...

I just did Cambria with Lynx and Raven on my team (level 5 and 6) and they're way more effective with their backup Mini-14s with a 2x scope mounted than either with a 10x equipped Scout (Lynx) or a 7x equipped M-14 (Raven). Lynx for example took four turns shooting at a standing and stationary enemy who was completely out of cover and didn't manage to land a single hit (torso shots only). I can buy a running enemy or one blocked by terrain/foliage being a tricky target - especially with too high a magnification - but lots of times sniper-rifles seem kinda useless now.

Auto-fire OTOH seems a lot more powerful now so it feels a bit like all these changes do is nerf one "uber"-weapon (sniper rifles) while turning full auto into the new uber-mechanic.

Just my impressions ... big grin


S.

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Civilian
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #365914 is a reply to message #365913] Mon, 19 February 2024 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LatZee is currently offline LatZee

 
Messages:185
Registered:December 2015
In theory, you should be able to just overwrite version like 7435 with something a bit more modern, or at least use the patch 7609 for that "stable" edition, but of course, no guarantees big grin

Scopes are in many ways pretty overpowered, especially in OCTH where the mid/late game turns completely uninteractive due to inability of AI to use them to the same level as the player, and game turning into a shooting gallery where enemies don't really get to do anything or present any kind of threat due to scopes vision bonuses and way to high hit rates. NCTH is designed to change that, both through generally different shooting philosophy that lowers the hit rates across the board, making combat less predictable and more chaotic, and through limitations put on scopes that makes them having downsides to "pay" for their overpowerness and leveling the field in that way.

Snipers are still very powerful in NCTH (pound for pound, probably the best weapon/merc class), but they do not make a one man army unlike in OCTH where you basically want everyone to use sniper rifles. And that difference is exactly what NCTH wants to achieve. If you like OCTH more, use OCTH, there is certainly no NCTH gestapo that is going to come to your place and make you use it cheeky

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Staff Sergeant
Re: Better default NCTH settings contest[message #365915 is a reply to message #365914] Mon, 19 February 2024 20:19 Go to previous message
LatZee is currently offline LatZee

 
Messages:185
Registered:December 2015
And just to add, while this forums is still useful as some kind of an archive of stuff over the years, it's mostly dead as a place for discussion/questions and all that big grin that kind of stuff is mostly on discord nowadays. Newer versions of 1.13 are also on Github nowadays, all of those details are at the top of this section.

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